God and Hell

  • Thread starter Thread starter computerguy
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

computerguy

Guest
My brother wants me to ask this question for him, I would answer him, but i’m not sure how to answer. So here goes.

"From what I understand, God is omnipotent, and omnipresent. That is, everywhere, and all-knowing. He is the seed of life, etc.

But Hell, is a place of eternal torment, a place “without God”. But if God is everywhere, how can there be a Hell? One could argue, that He didn’t make Hell, and that is simply where one goes when one doesn’t want to be without God. But then, where would the torture, agony, pain, etc, come from? Those are all things of God, used to guide at times. So how then, can God and Hell co-exist?

The two just don’t seem to work."

And thats that. Any (name removed by moderator)ut would be appreciated.

Will
 
Of course God is in Hell. Who ever said that He isn’t?
Those in Hell have simply separated themselves from his grace and his love - not from His essential presence of power. Not even Satan himself can escape from that…

As the Psalm says, “where can I go from your presence? or where can I flee from your face? If I ascend to the heavens, you are there; if I descend into the depths of the earth and the darkness around me be as night, even there you are…”
(I can’t give you chapter & verse at the second - that’s just from memory - perh. Ps. 139?)
 
I highly recommend the book Theology For Beginners by Frank Sheed, which covers this very topic.
 
Hm, Ok. Thanks for the answers guys. I’ll let my brother know once he’s awake.
 
Instead of continuing to borrow my brother’s account, I just went and made my own. Anywho.

I guess that maybe my understanding of Hell is flawed, but I thought it was a place bereft of God? I mean, we have two choices… To be with God, and not to be with God. But if God is in both places, how can we ever part?
 
40.png
1ke:
I highly recommend the book Theology For Beginners by Frank Sheed, which covers this very topic.
Click to expand...
A quote from this book:
"They tell a story in Scotland of a preacher describing the sufferings of the damned: they are up to their necks in boiling pitch; suddenly an angel swoops down with a scythe; they bury their heads in the pitch, emerge with their eyes streaming and gasp: “But, Lord, we didn’t know.” Then the Lord, bending over them “with infinite mercy and compassion,” says, “Well, you know now.”
Click to expand...
:rotfl:
 
Many of these things make no sense. Where is all this pain, and eternal torment coming from? Is it from God? If so, why is God doing such… Well, I’d have to put it as inhumane. And basic moral instinct, tells us not to torture, it just isn’t right. Furthermore, to alleviate suffering wherever we can find it.

If God is within Hell, how can we reconcile it?
 
Hell’s existence was taught to us by Christ. In the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew Chapters 5 - 7) Jesus warned about hell at least 5 times. So we have to accept that Hell exists. It is a place of suffering and it is eternal. Jesus used the word ‘fire’ to describe the type of suffering that would be experienced.

Sheed explains that the mystery of Hell is not about God’s cruelty, but about “man’s power to hate God.” Man is the one who chooses to separate himself from God. The principle pain of Hell is the pain of loss.

When we die and see God and realise to the full extent His Love for us, the soul who chose to separate himself from God will be overwhelmed and seek to distance himself from that Love, unable to bear His Presence. They chose to hate God and they are affirmed in that choice for all eternity.
 
So there is no sort of physical torture that is going on, but rather our own emotional/intellectual torture which we visit upon ourselves?

So there’s nothing to really fear in Hell, except our own pain and loss. That is, assuming we can even comprehend it.

And Hell is made even more of a torment, because God IS there.
 
Hell is not eternal, nor even ev-eternal. But it is everlasting.

The pains of Hell come from the very souls of the damned themselves, and from the company of the demons with which they are forever there consigned.

To understand how it is that God is in Hell, one must understand the differing modalities of the divine presence. Omnipotent and Omnipresent, God is first of all present in all of His Creation through His creative/conserving power. By this mode He is present in rocks and trees, in the souls of those in mortal sin upon earth - and yes, present even within the souls of protestants, and in the Devil himself! This is a merely “natural” mode of presence.

The kind of presence of which you may be thinking, and which is causing the problem for you, is the supernatural mode of God’s presence through sanctifying and actual grace. God is present in this way only in the souls of the just.

There are other special modes of the divine presence, as well - for example that in Christ’s human nature, that in Heaven’s beatific vision and light of glory, etc.
 
There is no physical torture in Hell - yet. After the Resurrection of the Dead and the General Judgment, the bodies of the damned will join their souls in everlasting punishment.
 
40.png
computerguy:
… if God is everywhere, how can there be a Hell? One could argue, that He didn’t make Hell, and that is simply where one goes when one doesn’t want to be without God. But then, where would the torture, agony, pain, etc, come from? Those are all things of God, used to guide at times. So how then, can God and Hell co-exist?
Click to expand...
I think it was John Cardinal Newman who said that the flames of Hell are simply the light of God’s love as it is experienced by those who have rejected Him. In that sense, yes, God is even in Hell.
 
But by the example of Jesus, after all, he DID to descend into Hell, wouldn’t it then be possible for God to be supernaturally present within Hell?

I’m not looking at this as God existing within the damned in an actual sanctifying grace, but rather. I’ve always understood Hell as a place where one goes when one doesn’t want to be with God. But if God is there as well, how then can when we ever be truly PARTED from God?

It seems no matter how you look at it, God is always going to be there. Not only that, but letting these people suffer eternally. There isn’t a second chance, after all. Once you’re damned, you’re damned.

Does this lead us to the famed “once saved always saved” doctrine of many Protestants? Unless you are truly evil, possess a “seared conscience”, and never ever want to be with God, you will be saved no matter the consequence?
 
Jesus did not descend into the hell of the damned. Before His death and resurrection, NOBODY went to heaven. Some went to purgatory, and some to hell, but those who no longer needed purification were still not able to get into heaven. . .and thus were in what has been called I believe “the Limbo of the Fathers”.

With Christ’s death and resurrection, all those who were purified for heaven were able to enter heaven. . .and, God willing, any of us, through Christ’s sacrifice, will one day do so as well.

Would you prefer, in the interests of “fairness”, that God OVERRIDE the freely chosen choice of those who damn themselves, and literally FORCE them into heaven? Because that is where you appear to be heading. . . and, if you argue for that, then you are negating free will for humans and omnipotence for God, because you are basically saying that He is going to disregard the rules He Himself made.
 
40.png
Shiftscythe:
It seems no matter how you look at it, God is always going to be there. Not only that, but letting these people suffer eternally. There isn’t a second chance, after all. Once you’re damned, you’re damned.
Click to expand...
You are correct in that there isn’t a second chance in hell, or anywhere for that matter. What you’re overlooking is Purgatory. That is the temporary place of purification between heaven and hell. Although, even there, people will have no second chance. Purgatory is only open to those who WILL be saved and it is there that concupiscence is removed from us.
 
40.png
tjmiller:
Hell is not eternal, nor even ev-eternal. But it is everlasting.

.
Click to expand...
I have heard this distinction before. Can anybody try to explain how eternal and everlasting differ?
 
Tantum ergo:
Would you prefer, in the interests of “fairness”, that God OVERRIDE the freely chosen choice of those who damn themselves, and literally FORCE them into heaven? Because that is where you appear to be heading. . . and, if you argue for that, then you are negating free will for humans and omnipotence for God, because you are basically saying that He is going to disregard the rules He Himself made.
Click to expand...
Firstly, I’d say God has done this before. An example, being when God hardened the Pharoh’s heart, during the Exodus.

But continuing, that isn’t quite what I’m looking at. From what has been said here, we’ve got the fact that God exists in Hell, the same way He exists in all things he created. In that way, He will always exist within those that are damned. And those that are damned, will always be with God, never away from Him.

Now, are you saying that God can’t go to Hell? I don’t if that’s what you’re getting at, but it seems like it.

What I see right now, is that even if one commits a mortal sin, and dies in a state of mortal sin, one isn’t damned. Contrary to Catholic teaching, yes. But I can’t see any other way around it.

Hell exists for those who do not wish to be with God. It is for people who have turned from him, and will never look back. In essence, the people who possess a seared conscience. They have gone so far from God there is no possible chance of redemption. After all, those that are imperfect, that have made mistakes, but still desire to be with God, go to Purgatory.

If this is not assumed, then how could God, infinite in compassion, and infinite in mercy, infinite in love, allow his children who he KNOWS with a little guidance (note: not control), go to Hell for a mortal sin at the wrong time, when they would otherwise find their way to Him?

An example illustrating this, would be… A man committs a sexual indisgression with another man’s wife. The other man finds the two in the midst of their sin, and kills both. Neither have had a chance to repent, so God must judge the condition of their souls, what would have happened, what might have happened, so on, so forth, and figure out if they really wished to be with Him.

The same can be said with old age. We never know when we’re going to die, it is a circumstance we have very little control over, besides eating healthy, exercising, etc… God must judge the condition of our souls at the moment of our Death, regardless of our mortal sins, our venial sins, and decide if we really wanted to be with Him, or not.

If he did not, how could we call him infinitely compassionate, for is he not the God of love?
 
Eternal=w/o beginning or end;
Eveternal=w/o end & “almost” w/o beginning; literally, “on the threshold of the eternal” - like the angels;
Everlasting=w/beginning, but w/o end.
 
A better word than everlasting might be Sempiternal (just to go along with “eternal root”)

sempiternal \sem-pih-TUR-nuhl, adjective:
Of never ending duration; having beginning but no end; everlasting; endless.

Yours in Christ,
Thursday
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top