God and Individualism

[jaiyen]

I have a question… and a few thoughts:

I’ve always had a hard time with the idea of God supporting individualism and capitalism as a social system. It doesn’t seem particularly consistent with Jesus’ statements about the way we are to relate to each other and the social system we create.

Any thoughts? I’d be very curious to explore this?

Thanks

~Jai yen

 

[thedavidwilson]

I have a question… and a few thoughts:

I’ve always had a hard time with the idea of God supporting individualism and capitalism as a social system. It doesn’t seem particularly consistent with Jesus’ statements about the way we are to relate to each other and the social system we create.

Any thoughts? I’d be very curious to explore this?

Thanks

~Jai yen

God is the ultimate supporter of individualism. That is why hell exists. Hell exists because WE choose to turn away from God. God gave us free will. There is suffering in the world because WE exercise this free will incorrectly. God permits this, through his Permissive Will, becasue he loves us and gave us the gift of free will.

He could snap his fingers and fix everything but that would take away our free will. We would just be animals then.

Socialism, Communism and other forms of fascism are religions of the state. They are a form of man worshiping himself rather than God. The result of this is the stiffling of free will or individualism. That is why these forms of governments have killed hundreds of millions of people. We were made by God to be individuals and to become all that he has made us to be. The only way to keep people from doing this is to kill them, hence these murderous regimes.

Today Capitalism and free market policies are the best systems that allows us to excercise our free will and be the individuals God made us to be, while having a minimal set of laws (hopefully) that discourge things like murder and theft.

You might comment that capitalism is based on greed (which it is not) and these other systems help the poor by forcing people to pay into social programs. The evil of this is that these social programs take away the aspect free will in helping others. When you force someone to be charitable it is not longer charity, it is theft. Love is a choice, an act of FREE will.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

I have a question… and a few thoughts:

I’ve always had a hard time with the idea of God supporting individualism and capitalism as a social system. It doesn’t seem particularly consistent with Jesus’ statements about the way we are to relate to each other and the social system we create.

Any thoughts? I’d be very curious to explore this?

Thanks

~Jai yen

Look at it this way. Salvation isn’t an individualistic proposition, it absolutely depends upon one’s ability to submit to an authority and a society, namely the Church. We aren’t saved on our own. It’s not just Jesus, me and my Bible; it’s about US, together, in the Church. One cannot baptize one’s self. One cannot commune one’s self (except for priests). One cannot absolve one’s self. We are saved together, we are condemned alone.

As to economic systems, the Church is very clear:

From the Catechism (§2425)
The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with ‘communism’ or ‘socialism.’ She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of ‘capitalism,’ individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor. Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for ‘there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market.’ Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.

Let’s break that down, because it speaks to both systems:

On Socialism:
“The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with ‘communism’ or ‘socialism.’…Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds.”

On Capitalism:
“She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of ‘capitalism,’ individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor…regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for ‘there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market.’ Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.”

Socialism is condemned, but so is absolute capitalism. It seems as though your suspicions are well founded.

 

[thedavidwilson]

it absolutely depends upon one’s ability to submit to an authority and a society, namely the Church. We aren’t saved on our own. .

This salvation requires that we act of our own free will. We cannot and will not be forced to be saved. Socialism and Communism forces people to do things, forces them to contribute to the good of others. That denies the free will. Free market policies is the best analogy since it is my free choice to donate to charity. If someone is forcing me to donate to charity (i.e. to a healthcare system or welfare) this is not charity/love but is theft since I am robbed of my free will and money.

I will have to read up on what the catechism says. At first blush I would say the premise is false. It assumes it is the market place’s job to be charitable to others. It is actually our job. Which works pretty well since the US is the most charitable (from private individuals) nation on the planet. Christ called on us to love our neighbor (as and individual act of free will) not the Chamber of Commerce. This is why socialism fails: it (the government) tries to do in society that which we as individuals should be doing.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

This salvation requires that we act of our own free will. We cannot and will not be forced to be saved.

An obvious duh. If a person WANTS to be saved, they find salvation through the Church and obedience thereto.

Socialism and Communism forces people to do things, forces them to contribute to the good of others. That denies the free will. Free market policies is the best analogy since it is my free choice to donate to charity. If someone is forcing me to donate to charity (i.e. to a healthcare system or welfare) this is not charity/love but is theft since I am robbed of my free will and money.

I will have to read up on what the catechism says. At first blush I would say the premise is false. It assumes it is the market place’s job to be charitable to others. It is actually our job. Which works pretty well since the US is the most charitable (from private individuals) nation on the planet. Christ called on us to love our neighbor (as and individual act of free will) not the Chamber of Commerce. This is why socialism fails: it (the government) tries to do in society that which we as individuals should be doing.

Hmmm…well, you’re certainly entitled to your opinion.

 

[thedavidwilson]

An obvious duh. If a person WANTS to be saved, they find salvation through the Church and obedience thereto.

Hmmm…well, you’re certainly entitled to your opinion.

So do you advocate a theocracy? Would it be valid for the state or Church to force someone to be charitable?

Remember that most of the charitable contributions in the US are made by conservative, religious individuals and far out strips what our government or any other government does. We have a semi-free market yet we are very charitable. What evidence is there that a free market system prevents/inhibits acts of charity?

 

[grampben]

God is the ultimate supporter of individualism. That is why hell exists. Hell exists because WE choose to turn away from God. God gave us free will. There is suffering in the world because WE exercise this free will incorrectly. God permits this, through his Permissive Will, becasue he loves us and gave us the gift of free will.

He could snap his fingers and fix everything but that would take away our free will. We would just be animals then.

Socialism, Communism and other forms of fascism are religions of the state. They are a form of man worshiping himself rather than God. The result of this is the stiffling of free will or individualism. That is why these forms of governments have killed hundreds of millions of people. We were made by God to be individuals and to become all that he has made us to be. The only way to keep people from doing this is to kill them, hence these murderous regimes.

Today Capitalism and free market policies are the best systems that allows us to excercise our free will and be the individuals God made us to be, while having a minimal set of laws (hopefully) that discourge things like murder and theft.

You might comment that capitalism is based on greed (which it is not) and these other systems help the poor by forcing people to pay into social programs. The evil of this is that these social programs take away the aspect free will in helping others. When you force someone to be charitable it is not longer charity, it is theft. Love is a choice, an act of FREE will.

You evidently do not know what socialism is.

Socialism and communism are NOT ‘forms of fascism’ as you seem to think. The three are 3 distinct ideologies, though socialism could be seen as watered down communism.

Also fascism refers to a political and social system, not an economic system. Thus a fascist dictator can also be capitalist, for example Batista in pre-revolution Cuba, as well as other USA sponsored dictators (Diem in South Vietnam, Chiang Kai-shek in China).

Socialist is a broad term, and has many forms and many definitions. Many capitalist systems have been called socialist, for example social democracy.

I believe in capitalism, but at the same time the free market and neo-liberalisation/globalisation has led to a global dependence on world banks and corporations.

The message I see from the Bible and tradition is that while individual liberty is paramount, as a society things get done better when we work together. Total individualism is anarchism, total collectivism is authoritarian communism. Most agree we are somewhere in between, but we don’t all agree exactly where

 

[LCMS_No_More]

So do you advocate a theocracy? Would it be valid for the state or Church to force someone to be charitable?

Absolutely NOT. On the topic of salvation, I was very clear.

Remember that most of the charitable contributions in the US are made by conservative, religious individuals and far out strips what our government or any other government does. We have a semi-free market yet we are very charitable. What evidence is there that a free market system prevents/inhibits acts of charity?

I don’t deny that. What I deny is that absolute capitalism is inherently good. I, along with the Church, believe that capitalism works best when it is regulated (based on the size of the capitalist enterprise…multinational corporations should be regulated on a national scale but small businesses on a local scale).

 

[thedavidwilson]

You evidently do not know what socialism is.

Socialism and communism are NOT ‘forms of fascism’ as you seem to think. The three are 3 distinct ideologies, though socialism could be seen as watered down communism.

Also fascism refers to a political and social system, not an economic system. Thus a fascist dictator can also be capitalist, for example Batista in pre-revolution Cuba, as well as other USA sponsored dictators (Diem in South Vietnam, Chiang Kai-shek in China).

Socialist is a broad term, and has many forms and many definitions. Many capitalist systems have been called socialist, for example social democracy.

I believe in capitalism, but at the same time the free market and neo-liberalisation/globalisation has led to a global dependence on world banks and corporations.

The message I see from the Bible and tradition is that while individual liberty is paramount, as a society things get done better when we work together. Total individualism is anarchism, total collectivism is authoritarian communism. Most agree we are somewhere in between, but we don’t all agree exactly where

They are all a religion of the state: putting man before God. The word facism refers to a bundle of sticks that represented how the roman empire bound up all the countries it conquerd. Mussolini used this term to describe the way fascist bind up everything into the government. He also invented the term totalitarian to indicate the way the goverment totally encompasses/controls everything. This can be found in communism, socialism, nazism and italian fascism.

If you have the government controling a capitalist system then it is no longer capitalism but socialism.

 

[thedavidwilson]

Absolutely NOT. On the topic of salvation, I was very clear.

I don’t deny that. What I deny is that absolute capitalism is inherently good. I, along with the Church, believe that capitalism works best when it is regulated (based on the size of the capitalist enterprise…multinational corporations should be regulated on a national scale but small businesses on a local scale).

What has happened when this regulation has occured? The/any government has not done a good job at this and never will. You should read a book called Basic Economics by Sowell. It goes over many examples of how goverment has tried to regulate free markets and why the consequences are always bad.

 

[grampben]

They are all a religion of the state: putting man before God. The word facism refers to a bundle of sticks that represented how the roman empire bound up all the countries it conquerd. Mussolini used this term to describe the way fascist bind up everything into the government. He also invented the term totalitarian to indicate the way the goverment totally encompasses/controls everything. This can be found in communism, socialism, nazism and italian fascism.

If you have the government controling a capitalist system then it is no longer capitalism but socialism.

There is a difference between government control and government regulation. Total government control breeds economic authoritarianism, total free markets leads to oligarchy from the big corporations. This current global financial crisis is a perfect example of how as citizens of the world we rely too much on MNCs.

How does the government control everything under socialism? If so what’s the difference between that and communism? Socialism is a broad spectrum.

 

[grampben]

What has happened when this regulation has occured? The/any government has not done a good job at this and never will. You should read a book called Basic Economics by Sowell. It goes over many examples of how goverment has tried to regulate free markets and why the consequences are always bad.

Free markets does not always mean freedom for the people.

 

[thedavidwilson]

There is a difference between government control and government regulation. Total government control breeds economic authoritarianism, total free markets leads to oligarchy from the big corporations. This current global financial crisis is a perfect example of how as citizens of the world we rely too much on MNCs.

How does the government control everything under socialism? If so what’s the difference between that and communism? Socialism is a broad spectrum.

MNCs?

The current situation is a perfect example of how government control screws things up. The US goverment incentivized (some say forced) banks to make loans to low income (i.e. people who could not afford them) borrowers. They then implicity backed up those loans and the related securities by backing up fannie and freddie. The US government created the ability for companies to speculate becasue they had nothing to loose They are now bailing out companies who speculated.

If the US government did not force companies to make bad business decisions and then guarantees to bail them out bad things happen.

 

[thedavidwilson]

Free markets does not always mean freedom for the people.

Examples?

 

[grampben]

MNCs?

The current situation is a perfect example of how government control screws things up. The US goverment incentivized (some say forced) banks to make loans to low income (i.e. people who could not afford them) borrowers. They then implicity backed up those loans and the related securities by backing up fannie and freddie. The US government created the ability for companies to speculate becasue they had nothing to loose They are now bailing out companies who speculated.

If the US government did not force companies to make bad business decisions and then guarantees to bail them out bad things happen.

Multi-national corporations.

I am against the bailout also, but for different reasons perhaps.

With free markets, what I meant was as I see it the corporations have too much of an effect on society, we are not free we are subject to the will of corporations and their affect on most major political parties and systems.

 

[thedavidwilson]

Multi-national corporations.

I am against the bailout also, but for different reasons perhaps.

With free markets, what I meant was as I see it the corporations have too much of an effect on society, we are not free we are subject to the will of corporations and their affect on most major political parties and systems.

That is why we need to decentralize the government and put the power back in the stated where the constitution places it. Corporations, be definition, are opportunists. The reason they have control over our society is because we have place too much power in DC where companies and other interests can influence policy. If the power was in 50 states rather than 1 city the corporations would have a hrader time influencing national policy.

The corporations are not inherently evil. hey provide many jobs, services and many people rely on them for their retirement income. The centralization of power in DC has incenventized/enabled the corporations to influence policy. If we cut the size/power of the federal government as the constitution calls for the corporations would not have he leverage they do. This would be a move to individualism and away from central control.

 

[grampben]

The corporations are not inherently evil. hey provide many jobs, services and many people rely on them for their retirement income. The centralization of power in DC has incenventized/enabled the corporations to influence policy. If we cut the size/power of the federal government as the constitution calls for the corporations would not have he leverage they do. This would be a move to individualism and away from central control.

Similarly, The government is not inherently evil. it provides many jobs, services and many people rely on them for their retirement income.

 

[thedavidwilson]

Similarly, The government is not inherently evil. it provides many jobs, services and many people rely on them for their retirement income.

I would disagree. Some goverments are. Hitler put a lot of people to work and really grew economy in the early 1930’s. Unfortunatly he forced most of these people to go to work Larger government tends to want to grow and take way people’s freedoms. That is why our governmental powers are separated and most of the power was place in the states by the constitution.

 

[jaiyen]

Thank you so much to everyone who is replying on this thread. Your comments are very interesting!

Personally I like the idea of a mixed economy ~ capitalism for non-essential items because it does generate creativity. Essential services (housing, jobs, health care and education) should be provided by collected tax money. Basic human well-being should not be dependent on marketplace competition.

Along with community comes responsibility to help each other and that’s the basis of my own positions.

Hope everyone is having a wonderful day!

~Jai yen

 

[LCMS_No_More]

I would disagree. Some goverments are. Hitler put a lot of people to work and really grew economy in the early 1930’s. Unfortunatly he forced most of these people to go to work Larger government tends to want to grow and take way people’s freedoms. That is why our governmental powers are separated and most of the power was place in the states by the constitution.

Godwin’s Law is hereby invoked.