God and Possibility

[inocente]

Or is it possible that God, being omniscient, knows what the state of his soul would have been at the natural end of his life had he lived to his natural end, and he would be judged based on the state of his soul at that time rather than at the time of his actual death?

You may not have considered how it might be interpreted. I can do whatever I like today, as God knows I’ll repent eventually. And if God doesn’t let me live that long then I’m not the one to blame, He’s in debt to me and must recompense me for cutting short my life.

 

[One_point]

The real future, yes. The hypothetical non-existent future, which does not exist in reality, No. IMHO.
Mr. Charlemagne, please explain how would God see something which does not exist and never will exist? Since it does not exist, you would not be able to see it. Similar to since a square circle does not exist, an omniscient God would not be able to see a square circle.

If to see is to know, then God can see the infinite possibilities of existence that we cannot. Both those that exist and those that not. After all, everything that exists expresses God in a finite way and God is full existence and infinite he knows himself perfectly. That means God must know everything that could express himself in any way even if he does not make it exist.

I don’t like it when people put limitations on God that God cannot make a square circle. What gives humans the gall to say so? Just because something seems impossible to humans does not mean it is impossible to God. Maybe in our universe it seems a square cannot be a circle at once, but not necessarily from God’s perspective. unless we talk of sin, I rather not state confidently that God cannot make a square circle. We don’t know. Reality is whatever God makes possible, not what is possible apart from God action. In our reality a circle and square cannot be the same thing but who says ours is the only possible reality? Creation is a contradiction, a creature is both nothingness and somethingness, or what is really nothing being something. whereas God is only everythingness and not nothingness or somethingness at all. So who can say what God cannot do? That’s too bold for us to say.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Not sure. Because almost anything is possible. What is possible is not what is real and what really happened. It would have been possible that I did not rob the bank, but unfortunately, I committed the sin and must pay for it. God knows that it would have been possible for me to have been good, but that doesn’t count. What counts is what I really did in the real world. IMHO.

Again, you seem time bound. God is not. God knows what is possible in the future. Whether it is allowed to come to pass is God’s decision. If he chooses to take us for judgment before that future comes to pass, because of fire, flood, disease, accident or crime, we are still not deprived of a judgment based on what we would have deserved had we lived and died a normal life in old age.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

You may not have considered how it might be interpreted. I can do whatever I like today, as God knows I’ll repent eventually. And if God doesn’t let me live that long then I’m not the one to blame, He’s in debt to me and must recompense me for cutting short my life.

I must be very confused today, or is it possible that you are?

Can you clarify the above remark? That would be appreciated.

 

[Aloysium]

:twocents::twocents:

I think God has plans for us. We carry them out choosing either the role of the good guy or the bad guy.
For example: Lucifer is a key figure in the man’s journey to God. In trying to sabotage the plan, he helped it to its conclusion.

I think God is surprised by our decisions although knowing them in eternity. Who we are is always known to God, but it is we who decide who we are.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

:twocents::twocents:I think God is surprised by our decisions although knowing them in eternity. Who we are is always known to God, but it is we who decide who we are.

You may have hit upon the mystery behind creation. God likes surprises!

 

[inocente]

I must be very confused today, or is it possible that you are?

Can you clarify the above remark? That would be appreciated.

I was thinking about how your notion could be interpreted.

If God doesn’t judge you by what you do today, but instead judges a hypothetical you at some point in the future unknown to you, then what stops you from doing anything you like, good or evil, today?

Since, if you do evil, all you have to do is promise yourself that you’ll repent at some later date just before you reckon you’ll die of natural causes. God then knows you intended to repent, even if you die before you can. You get judged on your future intent, not your actions today, so what stops you from acting immorally today?

 

[Tomdstone]

Again, you seem time bound. God is not. God knows what is possible in the future. Whether it is allowed to come to pass is God’s decision. If he chooses to take us for judgment before that future comes to pass, because of fire, flood, disease, accident or crime, we are still not deprived of a judgment based on what we would have deserved had we lived and died a normal life in old age.

If God is going to go by what was possible for all of us, that means that since it would have been possible for all of us to make the correct and moral choice, so taking that into account, why don’t we all go to heaven? If we had lived in the future, we all might have repented of any wrong we had done. So to say that God would judge us on the basis of what we would have done in the future if we had the opportunity, would mean that since we would repent to avoid hell, we would all be saved and that no one is in hell. Most Catholic Fathers did not believe in apokatastasis.

 

[Tomdstone]

I was thinking about how your notion could be interpreted.

If God doesn’t judge you by what you do today, but instead judges a hypothetical you at some point in the future unknown to you, then what stops you from doing anything you like, good or evil, today?

Since, if you do evil, all you have to do is promise yourself that you’ll repent at some later date just before you reckon you’ll die of natural causes. God then knows you intended to repent, even if you die before you can. You get judged on your future intent, not your actions today, so what stops you from acting immorally today?

Yes. The logical result of the reasoning of Mr. Charles is apokatastasis IMHO.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Since, if you do evil, all you have to do is promise yourself that you’ll repent at some later date just before you reckon you’ll die of natural causes. God then knows you intended to repent, even if you die before you can. You get judged on your future intent, not your actions today, so what stops you from acting immorally today?

That’s precisely the kind of logic that gets many of us into hell without even waiting for our possible self to arrive. We don’t yet know how our possible self will perform, so it behooves us while we are alive to behave as best we can and repent every eight hours or even less.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

If God is going to go by what was possible for all of us, that means that since it would have been possible for all of us to make the correct and moral choice, so taking that into account, why don’t we all go to heaven?

I guess I’m not following this. It might have been possible, but not necessary for us all to make the right or correct choice.

I really think there are probably a helluva lot more people in purgatory than in heaven. I could be wrong, but I think God’s justice is equal to his mercy, and most of us do not deserve what mercy we get, so we are going to get the justice and plenty of it.

 

[HoistedSheep]

I think God’s omnipotence is more complex than clairvoyance. God sees into our hearts and minds. He knows exactly how sincere we are. If he can see clearly into our souls, then he can easily judge our decisions and fate. Remember, as others have stated on this thread, the future is not a “real” tangible place. It doesn’t exist. As Saint Augustine said,
“How can the past and future be, when the past no longer is, and the future is not yet? As for the present, if it were always present and never moved on to become the past, it would not be time, but eternity.”
The future is directly related to now. For instance, I type this sentence in the present. This sentence that follows it is the future, it has developed from the “present” sentence, which is has now become the past. God exists in the eternity Augustine speaks about. He is the “Word”, never changing, never drifting into the future and becoming past. When he looks on from eternity at us, we are ever-changing, going from young to middle-aged to old. But the decision to follow his will and change our hearts and mind against sin is not an earthly one. It is an eternal one. When God looks at us, he sees our whole lives, from the past to the present, extending in time, this extension filling the future. If we decide sincerely to follow his will, and make an effort to change our lives to please and serve Him, this decision will echo throughout all of these stages, and will counterbalance the decisions we make that are against His will.
It’s not that God sees into the future. It’s that he can see your present decisions, compare them to the past, and then predict the future based on this knowledge. When it comes judgement, we will all have to account for our sins, but hell is only for those who reject God’s will and love entirely. Let’s suppose you have sincerely tried to live your life according to His will, and have a bad day, but are deeply repentant about your fall. God is merciful. If you are sincerely repentant, He will see this fall in the context of your past efforts to change. God is eternal, his will corresponds best with the present.The fall will become past immediately after it is committed, and your repentance will become present. This why the Sacrament of Reconciliation is important. This is why Jesus said, “Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.” ( Mathew 5-7, 34). It is also why, after forgiving sinners, He said, " Go, and sin no more." If you sincerely turn against sin in each present moment, your past sins will be reconciled, and your future will be shaped by this aversion to sin. If you live in the moment, you will be more in tune with God, because your life will be patterned on a constant vigilance to sin in the present, and therefore closer to an favorable eternal judgement.
This is all speculation, of course.

 

[Tomdstone]

I guess I’m not following this.

Sorry about that. Unfortunately, I do not have the skills that others here have of providing the best and easiest to understand explanations.
I think that inocente expressed the idea much better (post #27).

 

[Tom_Baum]

This may seem to others a weird thread. I don’t necessarily expect it to last very long. But I’m very interested in any thoughts about this question.

We are told that God is omniscient. Would it follow that if an innocent person died due to a violent act against him, he would be judged according to the state of his soul at that moment?

Or is it possible that God, being omniscient, knows what the state of his soul would have been at the natural end of his life had he lived to his natural end, and he would be judged based on the state of his soul at that time rather than at the time of his actual death?

Well if God is Omniscient than God would have known that the person would have died when they died not only before they died but before they were even born.

It seems to me that Omniscience is to know everything that was, is or will be, not what might have been.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

It seems to me that Omniscience is to know everything that was, is or will be, not what might have been.

I’m not so critical of God’s omniscience.

If a child dies in childhood, is it impossible for God to see how his life would have unfolded had he lived?

I’m not married to this idea, but it does not seem impossible to me even though difficult to grasp.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

This is all speculation, of course.

But good speculation at that.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I’m not so critical of God’s omniscience.

What do you see in what I wrote as being “critical of God’s Omniscience”?

Omniscience is also be about knowing all of the possibilities that could ever be done but the “all-knowing” of a “person’s life” is what they did, not what they could have done but did not do.

If you do A, B and C in your life but not D, E and F, how would anyone knowing D, E and/or F know anything about what you did in your life?

Talking in circles does not do much more than get someone elected to office, it does not make a truth.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I’m not so critical of God’s omniscience.

If a child dies in childhood, is it impossible for God to see how his life would have unfolded had he lived?

I’m not married to this idea, but it does not seem impossible to me even though difficult to grasp.

As far as, “If a child dies in childhood, is it impossible for God to see how his life would have unfolded had he lived?”

I would say that God saw the child’s life unfold until the child’s life ended.

I would also say that God “knew” that this child’s life would end when it did, even before the child’s life ended, that to me is what Omniscience is to know what will be, not what might be.

I would also say that God knows what might be but knows that it is only might be, not that it will be.

The thing about God’s Omniscience that might seem even more impossible than God being Omniscient is that we are not “puppets on a string” following a preconceived script.

 

[inocente]

That’s precisely the kind of logic that gets many of us into hell without even waiting for our possible self to arrive. We don’t yet know how our possible self will perform, so it behooves us while we are alive to behave as best we can and repent every eight hours or even less.

I fear you are a little naive sir.

If a child dies in childhood, is it impossible for God to see how his life would have unfolded had he lived?

There’s another problem. Under your scheme, an aborted fetus will get sent to hell for what she might have done had she lived to age 70. Not exactly grace.

There would be no point in free will, fatalism would rule.

 

[inocente]

Yes. The logical result of the reasoning of Mr. Charles is apokatastasis IMHO.

Had to look up that word.