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Benadam
Guest
I would say it is about Satan and God’s cooperation relative to humans.
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Benadam
Guest
Nap, God pointed Job out to Satan bragging about how good Job is. Satan responded with how well Job has been treated and he would curse Him if Job’s goods were removed. God used Satan knowing Satan’s weaknesses in order to reveal Job’s holiness.
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Nap66
Guest
No I didn’t forget. I don’t believe the church specifically teaches anything on this subject (if so, please point out scripture and verse). However Jesus was sent to the desert by God to be tempted by Satan. Again, working together. Just my opinion and the church’s teachings can back up my opinions as well as yours.
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Nap66
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You just made my whole point. If in the end God’s plan requires working with Satan, then they work together. Wrong-doing is needed for the “master plan” and hence wrong-doing or evil is allowed by God. God controls everything, including evil. Wrong-doing doesn’t happen outside of him, he needs it for good.
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Nap66
Guest
Yes. God and Satan working together, which is my whole point. Now I’m not saying the two are on the same page when they are working together. Satan thinks he’s going to get something and God knows exactly what he is going to get in the end. But Satan can do absolutely NOTHING without God’s assent. So God knows exactly what Satan does on this earth and allows him to do it. If God didn’t want Satan to do certain things he wouldn’t be allowed. Satan gets his permission and then says “great let’s see how screwed up humans make this after the evil befalls them.” God grants the permission and then says “in the end good will come of this, if not on earth in the next life.”
That’s it. Working together but with different reasons. Still, in the end evil is allowed by God and we can’t stop it. We can only react to it.
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edtaylor51
Guest
Satan is a fallen angel. Angels, like humans, have been granted free will by God. God works with Satan no more than he worked with Hitler or works with Bashar al-Assad.
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God bless every readers of the CAF.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence might help to understand.
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Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).
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It is grace of Christ that delivers us (Rom.7:25); and makes us co-heirs with Him (Rom.8:17).
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This, the beneficent purpose of an all-seeing Providence, is wholly gratuitous, entirely unmerited (Romans 3:24; 9:11-2).
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It extends to all men (Romans 2:10; 1 Timothy 2:4), even to the reprobate Jews (Romans 11:26 sq.); and by it all God’s dealings with man are regulated (Ephesians 1:11).
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It extends to every individual, adapting itself to the needs of each (St. John Chrysostom, “Hom. xxviii in Matt.”, n. 3 in “P.G.”, LVII, 354).
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All things are created and governed with a view to man, to the development of his life and his intelligence, and to the satisfaction of his needs (Aristides, “Apol.”, i, v, vi, xv, xvi
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His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
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That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.
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The universe is a system of real beings created by God and directed by Him to this supreme end, the concurrence of God being necessary for all natural operations, whether of things animate or inanimate, and still more so for operations of the supernatural order.
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God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities.
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Continue
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence might help to understand.
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Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).
.
It is grace of Christ that delivers us (Rom.7:25); and makes us co-heirs with Him (Rom.8:17).
.
This, the beneficent purpose of an all-seeing Providence, is wholly gratuitous, entirely unmerited (Romans 3:24; 9:11-2).
.
It extends to all men (Romans 2:10; 1 Timothy 2:4), even to the reprobate Jews (Romans 11:26 sq.); and by it all God’s dealings with man are regulated (Ephesians 1:11).
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It extends to every individual, adapting itself to the needs of each (St. John Chrysostom, “Hom. xxviii in Matt.”, n. 3 in “P.G.”, LVII, 354).
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All things are created and governed with a view to man, to the development of his life and his intelligence, and to the satisfaction of his needs (Aristides, “Apol.”, i, v, vi, xv, xvi
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His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
.
That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.
.
The universe is a system of real beings created by God and directed by Him to this supreme end, the concurrence of God being necessary for all natural operations, whether of things animate or inanimate, and still more so for operations of the supernatural order.
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God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities.
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Continue
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Latin
Guest
Continuation
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Thus things happen contingently as well as of necessity (I, Q. xxii, a. 4), for God has given to different things different ways of acting, and His concurrence is given accordingly (I, Q. xxii, a. 4).
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Yet all things, whether due to necessary causes or to the free choice of man, are foreseen by God and preordained in accordance with His all-embracing purpose.
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Hence Providence is at once universal, immediate, efficacious, and without violence: universal, because all things are subject to it (I, Q. xxii, a. 2; ciii, a. 5); immediate, in that though God acts through secondary causes, yet all alike postulate Divine concurrence and receive their powers of operation from Him (I, Q. xxii, a. 3; Q. ciii, a. 6); efficacious, in that all things minister to God’s final purpose, a purpose which cannot be frustrated (Contra Gent., III, xciv);
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(Concurrence = Agreement or union in action: COOPERATION) – In the brackets is addition.
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In spite of sin, which is due to the willful perversion of human liberty, acting with the concurrence, but contrary to the purpose and intention of God and in spite of evil which is the consequence of sin, He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
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Sin is not ordained by the will of God, though it happens with His permission.
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Evil He converts into good (Genesis 1:20; cf. Psalm 90:10); and suffering He uses as an instrument whereby to train men up as a father traineth up his children (Deuteronomy 8:1-6; Psalm 65:2-10;
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Nor would God permit evil at all, unless He could draw good out of evil (St. Augustine, “Enchir.”, xi in “P.L.”, LX, 236; “Serm.”
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Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,
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Again, from the fact that God has created the universe, it shows that He must also govern it; for just as the contrivances of man demand attention and guidance, so God, as a good workman, must care for His work (St. Ambrose, “De Offic. minist.”, XIII in “P.L.”, XVI, 41; St. Augustine, “In Ps.”, cxlv, n. 12, 13 in “P.L.”, XXXVII, 1892-3; Theodoret, “Deprov. orat.”, i, ii in “P.G.”, LXXXIII, 564, 581-4; Salvianus, "De gub.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
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God bless every readers of the CAF.
Latin
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Thus things happen contingently as well as of necessity (I, Q. xxii, a. 4), for God has given to different things different ways of acting, and His concurrence is given accordingly (I, Q. xxii, a. 4).
.
Yet all things, whether due to necessary causes or to the free choice of man, are foreseen by God and preordained in accordance with His all-embracing purpose.
.
Hence Providence is at once universal, immediate, efficacious, and without violence: universal, because all things are subject to it (I, Q. xxii, a. 2; ciii, a. 5); immediate, in that though God acts through secondary causes, yet all alike postulate Divine concurrence and receive their powers of operation from Him (I, Q. xxii, a. 3; Q. ciii, a. 6); efficacious, in that all things minister to God’s final purpose, a purpose which cannot be frustrated (Contra Gent., III, xciv);
.
(Concurrence = Agreement or union in action: COOPERATION) – In the brackets is addition.
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In spite of sin, which is due to the willful perversion of human liberty, acting with the concurrence, but contrary to the purpose and intention of God and in spite of evil which is the consequence of sin, He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
.
Sin is not ordained by the will of God, though it happens with His permission.
.
Evil He converts into good (Genesis 1:20; cf. Psalm 90:10); and suffering He uses as an instrument whereby to train men up as a father traineth up his children (Deuteronomy 8:1-6; Psalm 65:2-10;
.
Nor would God permit evil at all, unless He could draw good out of evil (St. Augustine, “Enchir.”, xi in “P.L.”, LX, 236; “Serm.”
.
Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,
.
Again, from the fact that God has created the universe, it shows that He must also govern it; for just as the contrivances of man demand attention and guidance, so God, as a good workman, must care for His work (St. Ambrose, “De Offic. minist.”, XIII in “P.L.”, XVI, 41; St. Augustine, “In Ps.”, cxlv, n. 12, 13 in “P.L.”, XXXVII, 1892-3; Theodoret, “Deprov. orat.”, i, ii in “P.G.”, LXXXIII, 564, 581-4; Salvianus, "De gub.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
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God bless every readers of the CAF.
Latin
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TheOldColonel
Guest
You’d still be angry with God it appears.
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Guest
God bless you TheOldColonel and God bless every readers of the CAF.
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At this time God working together and He acts in and with EVERY creature in each and all its activities.
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Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.
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Our call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.
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Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.
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CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
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In other words, when God commands, He capacities the hearer to respond.
Our cooperation with the grace of God is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation.
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Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.
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Phil.1:6; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
And I am SURE that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
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At the end complete justice will accomplished all creatures will manifest the glory of God, and the ENTIRE human race will glorify Him serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and eternal happiness in God.
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God bless you TheOldColonel and God bless every readers of the CAF.
Latin
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Mike_from_NJ
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If God and Satan didn’t work together regarding Job, then the best answer might be that God was tempted by Satan with regards to Job.
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Nap66
Guest
Regarding the Book of Job, people seem to think that that was an one-off. God and Satan worked together only with Job (no one else on planet earth) because Job was so holy. Since then it has never happened again. In my humble opinion (and I’m sure everyone else has opposite opinions) the Book of Job shows how the world works. This cooperation between God and Satan happens every day to everyone. The Bible was written to show you how to live your life not to tell the story of one person who lived long ago.
Actually I don’t know why people are so upset that God and Satan work together. Yes, I was disturbed by the notion when I first started this thread but now I’ve come to the conclusion that everything is as it should be. I don’t have to cry to the heavens and wonder “why do bad things happen to good people!” “Why doesn’t God stop the evil!” Instead of me feeling that God is indifferent or unable to stop evil, it’s good to know that he cooperates with it so that the evil leads to good, eventually, even if not in this life. So what do we as humans do knowing this situation? Well, first stop trying to stop evil. Do as Jesus did, turn your back and move on with life as best you can. Jesus knew Satan had to exist, he didn’t try to destroy him. We can’t destroy Satan, we can only stop our reactions to him. We need to look at the evil in our lives and say “I can’t stop this, God has allowed it, hopefully something good comes from it someday.”
Satan and evil have to be. Isn’t it good to know that God controls it.
Actually I don’t know why people are so upset that God and Satan work together. Yes, I was disturbed by the notion when I first started this thread but now I’ve come to the conclusion that everything is as it should be. I don’t have to cry to the heavens and wonder “why do bad things happen to good people!” “Why doesn’t God stop the evil!” Instead of me feeling that God is indifferent or unable to stop evil, it’s good to know that he cooperates with it so that the evil leads to good, eventually, even if not in this life. So what do we as humans do knowing this situation? Well, first stop trying to stop evil. Do as Jesus did, turn your back and move on with life as best you can. Jesus knew Satan had to exist, he didn’t try to destroy him. We can’t destroy Satan, we can only stop our reactions to him. We need to look at the evil in our lives and say “I can’t stop this, God has allowed it, hopefully something good comes from it someday.”
Satan and evil have to be. Isn’t it good to know that God controls it.
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Usagi
Guest
God does not need evil to bring forth good. God would have been perfectly satisfied if no creature, not Satan nor Adam nor any of us, ever chose evil. He opposes every sinful action and gives us the grace to resist them.
That said, God does permit evil creatures (including Satan) to work their will to a certain extent. He also permits natural evils like illness and injury to occur. That he allows these things, and even brings good out of them, should not be taken to mean that he actively wants or needs them to occur, however. He wills the possibility, but not the sin or harm itself, and acts to bring good out of them when they do occur.
Finally, that God permits evil and even brings good out of it does not mean that we should not resist evil and pray for healing or for temptations to pass.
Overall, I don’t think you’re wrong in your conclusions, but the phrasing that God and Satan work together makes it sound a lot more cooperative and chummy than it actually is.
That said, God does permit evil creatures (including Satan) to work their will to a certain extent. He also permits natural evils like illness and injury to occur. That he allows these things, and even brings good out of them, should not be taken to mean that he actively wants or needs them to occur, however. He wills the possibility, but not the sin or harm itself, and acts to bring good out of them when they do occur.
Finally, that God permits evil and even brings good out of it does not mean that we should not resist evil and pray for healing or for temptations to pass.
Overall, I don’t think you’re wrong in your conclusions, but the phrasing that God and Satan work together makes it sound a lot more cooperative and chummy than it actually is.
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Benadam
Guest
It’s because cooperation implies two persons working together to reach the same goal. This isn’t how they relate to one another.
It’s more like Charlie Brown and Lucy when she gets Charlie to try and kick the football again and again with the same result. She moves it and he misses the football and ends up on his back. Lucy and Charlie aren’t cooperating but the same goal is achieved. Lucy’s goal but not Charlies. Better said, Charlie is cooperating with Lucy but Lucy isn’t cooperating with Charlie.
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