God and the killing of babies

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Scaun

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I’m a Christian, but lately I’ve been wondering about God and his order of killing babies. Now I sort of already imagine how a skeptic is going to object (or the ‘skeptic’ inside me, if you will), so I’ll put it in the form of an argument:1. The Christian God is described as being morally perfect, therefore completely just.
2. The Christian God is recorded in the Scriptures as having odered the killing of babies (e.g.: the Tenth Plague)
4. The killing of babies is unjust.
5. Therefore, given the incoherence of the Christian God, he does not exist.
First, to begin with, I support the idea that morality is based in the character and nature of God; therefore I do not support the idea that God is above morality (“amoral”). Given what I said, if he were to act immoraly he would be acting inconsistently with his own character, which is not possible. Therefore he is “moral”, and not only “moral” but “morally perfect”.

I assume that the Biblical record is correct. If not, then there are some big problems. I can believe that there are copyist errors, but believing someone inserted a whole passage seems way off to me.

And now here is the most important part of the argument, that killing babies is unjust. Now for the whole argument I suggest we work with only one example, namely, the Tenth Plague. I say that killing babies is unjust because they are being victims of something they didn’t commit. That is, God was against their fathers, the Egyptians. I do not see how their sons were related. And yes, I’m aware the Egyptians also killed Israel’s babies, but I do not imagine as God giving payback like this, especially when innocents (babies) are at stake.

The main question is this, because this is on what the argument rests:Was the killing of the babies by God in the given context unjust?
By the way, this isn’t a faith threatening question. I won’t give up Christianity for this. But even so, this issue bugs me… a lot.

Note that to be able to find a good answer to this question, it is necessary to examine it critically first.

Thank you for taking time to read this.

May God bless you,

Scaun
 
Scaun said:
I’m a Christian, but lately I’ve been wondering about God and his order of killing babies. Now I sort of already imagine how a skeptic is going to object (or the ‘skeptic’ inside me, if you will), so I’ll put it in the form of an argument:1. The Christian God is described as being morally perfect, therefore completely just.
2. The Christian God is recorded in the Scriptures as having odered the killing of babies (e.g.: the Tenth Plague)
4. The killing of babies is unjust.
5. Therefore, given the incoherence of the Christian God, he does not exist.
First, to begin with, I support the idea that morality is based in the character and nature of God; therefore I do not support the idea that God is above morality (“amoral”). Given what I said, if he were to act immoraly he would be acting inconsistently with his own character, which is not possible. Therefore he is “moral”, and not only “moral” but “morally perfect”.

I assume that the Biblical record is correct. If not, then there are some big problems. I can believe that there are copyist errors, but believing someone inserted a whole passage seems way off to me.

And now here is the most important part of the argument, that killing babies is unjust. Now for the whole argument I suggest we work with only one example, namely, the Tenth Plague. I say that killing babies is unjust because they are being victims of something they didn’t commit. That is, God was against their fathers, the Egyptians. I do not see how their sons were related. And yes, I’m aware the Egyptians also killed Israel’s babies, but I do not imagine as God giving payback like this, especially when innocents (babies) are at stake.

The main question is this, because this is on what the argument rests:Was the killing of the babies by God in the given context unjust?
By the way, this isn’t a faith threatening question. I won’t give up Christianity for this. But even so, this issue bugs me… a lot.

Note that to be able to find a good answer to this question, it is necessary to examine it critically first.

Thank you for taking time to read this.

May God bless you,

Scaun
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No, He was not acting unjust. Although He used the first born to represent his power, one can not say that the infants were punished. We do not know the eternal fate of the infants, and thus, we can not assume they were punished. God, on the other hand, knows perfectly well what their eternal fate is. God does not think of death on Earth the same as we do. Also, God is not bound by the laws of man. It is like a parent. A parent can set rules for their children that they do not have to follow because they know better than their child. God can do the same.
 
The plague that killed the 1st born may have extended to SOME babies but mostly affected grown men who would of been the ones mostly responsible for enslavement.
It is very interesting that pharo did not die…typically pharos were firstborn.
 
First off, God is the Supreme Being. You can never hope to understand the “why” of anything we go thru here on earth, for the good or the bad. Questioning God’s behavior seems laughable at best. We are only here on earth for a brief instant inGod’s time as it is. Our purpose here is to know, love, and serve God and look forward to union with Him for all eternity. Judging by your question,could you be thinking that this life on earth is the end all and be all and so question God’s judgement about how long a human life remains here. When a loved one dies to us here on earth, that is only the beginning of their eternal existence. We are sad for ourselves, and the loss of that person’s light in our lives. We rejoice for their perfect union with God.
 
Scaun said:
… But even so, this issue bugs me… a lot…
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Why should this bother you in the least? G-d said “You shall not kill” not “*I *shall not kill”. That old saw of an argument relies on ignoring what G-d actually said.:rolleyes:
 
Scaun,

This is a big problem I have, too. My thinking always comes back to how do we know that God is good when he does such awful things? Things that most everyone would say is objectivly wrong, ie killing babies, children and men just to show one’s own power? The answers of, “well, you just shouldn’t question God’s morality” is so unsatisfying for me. Why not?
 
Scaun said:
  1. The Christian God is described as being morally perfect, therefore completely just.
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True.
Scaun said:
  1. The Christian God is recorded in the Scriptures as having odered the killing of babies (e.g.: the Tenth Plague)
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True.
Scaun said:
  1. The killing of babies is unjust.
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For us, true. For God, false. Remember, God is Creator, no one dies but by His will (either passive or active). Therefore, God “kills” everyone. It is entirely withing God’s right to “kill” since He created to begin with.

As an added point, God never actively willed death on us. We were supposed to live eternally body and soul in the Garden of Eden, but we blew that. So now, we must die bodily. But if we remain faithful to Him, we will still live eternally in the soul, and then our body will be resurrected and glorified.
Scaun said:
First, to begin with, I support the idea that morality is based in the character and nature of God; therefore I do not support the idea that God is above morality (“amoral”). Given what I said, if he were to act immoraly he would be acting inconsistently with his own character, which is not possible. Therefore he is “moral”, and not only “moral” but “morally perfect”.
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This is true, God cannot commit evil. But you have to remember that God gave us free will. Therefore, He must allow us to choose evil, even though He does not will it. Bodily death came about by our actions, not God’s.

Hope that helps!
 
smichhertz and warpspeed, can you clarify that for me?

God created humans, so he can do whatever he wants with us and it is always good? Is that what you are saying?

Because to me, that sounds totally crazy. It feels kind of like a mob boss mentality. “I made you and I can take you out.”
 
sadiebelle said:
…God created humans, so he can do whatever he wants with us and it is always good? Is that what you are saying?
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Not quite. Whatever G-d does is good by definition. There is no morality apart from Divine Command. People like to pretend that if they call their opinions “ethics” or some other name, that they are making statements about morality, when in reality they are making statements about what they like or don’t like. Further, G-d created us and can do what he wishes with us because He has the legitimate authority of a Creator over the creation. Speaking for myself of course.
Because to me, that sounds totally crazy. It feels kind of like a mob boss mentality. “I made you and I can take you out.”
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What’s the alternative? a god who is subject to a higher law is no god. People want a G-d who behaves as they think He should. It never occurs to them that such a being could never be G-d. We have an almighty and powerful G-d who does as He pleases and all of His works are perfectly good. The very First lesson man learns in the Garden of Eden is that we do not know good from evil. On what basis then can any man accuse G-d?
 
sadiebelle said:
God created humans, so he can do whatever he wants with us and it is always good? Is that what you are saying?
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Not at all. Remember, God never wanted us to experience death in the first place. It was our actions that gave us our fallen nature. In other words, by our actions we brought death into the world.

So anytime you see God “killing” others, you have to remember that God didn’t desire this in anyway, but is forced to act so due to our disobedience in the garden.

Hope that helps.
 
Who is responsible for bringing babies into the world? A man and woman provide the physical means but without God creating a new soul, it just wouldn’t work. Every life is created by God. Our soul is our life. God never destroyed any of the babies soul’s. Therefore to me it doesn’t make sense to say that God killed the babies. He ended their Earthly lives and I’m sure they were given a heavenly life with God forever, which is something I can’t be sad about no matter how hard I try 😃
 
smichhertz and warpspeed,

Thanks for the replies, but I have to say that, to me, you guys just contradicted each other. One says that God is “forced to act so due to our disobedience in the garden.” and the other says that “We have an almighty and powerful G-d who does as He pleases and all of His works are perfectly good.”

So what is it, God does as he pleases, or we force him to act in certain ways by our actions?

Even ignoring all of that, the idea that whatever God does is good because he is God is very hard for me to accept. God does a lot of awful things in the Bible. That means that those things are actually good? But only because God did them? And if a human did them then they would be wrong?

Does that mean that there are situations where God could do something humans would judge as horrible, or command that humans do this horrible thing, and that it would then be considered good?

I know I’m really taking this far out here, but for example, if God commanded me to kill my daughter by torture…lighting her on fire maybe…that would then become a good thing because God can’t do bad?
 
Nate13 said:
Who is responsible for bringing babies into the world? A man and woman provide the physical means but without God creating a new soul, it just wouldn’t work. Every life is created by God. Our soul is our life. God never destroyed any of the babies soul’s. Therefore to me it doesn’t make sense to say that God killed the babies. He ended their Earthly lives and I’m sure they were given a heavenly life with God forever, which is something I can’t be sad about no matter how hard I try 😃
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But then doesn’t that kind of reasoning make all killing ok? I mean, take abortion. Your argument could be used by any woman who has one. I’m not killing the baby’s soul or denying it eternal life, in fact, my baby will go directly to heaven. But that still doesn’t make it ok. It is still killing.
 
sadiebelle said:
smichhertz and warpspeed,

So what is it, God does as he pleases, or we force him to act in certain ways by our actions?

Even ignoring all of that, the idea that whatever God does is good because he is God is very hard for me to accept. God does a lot of awful things in the Bible. That means that those things are actually good? But only because God did them? And if a human did them then they would be wrong?

Does that mean that there are situations where God could do something humans would judge as horrible, or command that humans do this horrible thing, and that it would then be considered good?

I know I’m really taking this far out here, but for example, if God commanded me to kill my daughter by torture…lighting her on fire maybe…that would then become a good thing because God can’t do bad?
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God can not be wrong. He can not do evil because evil directly contradicts Him. God can bring about good from bad. He killed all of their firstborn and slaves were freed. He did not unjustly kill the first born. They may very well be with Him in heaven, of which nobody is justly given. Nobody deserves heaven, but He gives it to us out of love. He did not have to create their souls, but He did. They did not just coincidentally happen. He had a plan for them, and the plan was undoubtedly just. It is impossible for us to understand God’s thoughts. Also, think of this. God can “kill” us. He is not bound by the laws He gave man. He does not live in time, but He gave us time because it was good. We need it to be saved. He knew that, but that does not mean He must live restricted by time.
 
karebear92 said:
God can not be wrong. He can not do evil because evil directly contradicts Him. God can bring about good from bad. He killed all of their firstborn and slaves were freed. He did not unjustly kill the first born. They may very well be with Him in heaven, of which nobody is justly given. Nobody deserves heaven, but He gives it to us out of love. He did not have to create their souls, but He did. They did not just coincidentally happen. He had a plan for them, and the plan was undoubtedly just. It is impossible for us to understand God’s thoughts. Also, think of this. God can “kill” us. He is not bound by the laws He gave man. He does not live in time, but He gave us time because it was good. We need it to be saved. He knew that, but that does not mean He must live restricted by time.
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Ok, I think I’m begining to understand what you’re saying, but can you address my hypothetical?

I just cannot help but question God’s goodness. I cannot wrap my head around a being doing awful things to people and it being good. I want to make sure that the God that I worship is good, not just powerful, and so I am really haunted by this very serious question.
 
sadiebelle said:
Ok, I think I’m begining to understand what you’re saying, but can you address my hypothetical?

I just cannot help but question God’s goodness. I cannot wrap my head around a being doing awful things to people and it being good. I want to make sure that the God that I worship is good, not just powerful, and so I am really haunted by this very serious question.
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It’s an unrealistic scenario, so it will be an unrealistic answer, but yes, it would be for the greater good. Because of man’s fall we will all die, that is on us. It does not seem fair to us because all that we understand is life on Earth, but to God we will never die. God is also not a soft God; He is a just God. He allows people to go to Hell for eternity because it is for the greater good. He allows us to sin and forever separate ourselves from Him because it is for the greater good. As bad as hell or death sounds, everything He allows or causes is done because it is just and because it is for the greater good, though we are not capable of understanding it. So if God said to torture and kill your daughter (which he wouldn’t), He would only be doing so because from that He would bring about a greater good (sorry for repeating greater good so much). Humans, on the other hand, are not capable of brining good from sin, which is why abortion is wrong. We are not capable of understanding our actions to their full magnitude.
 
sadiebelle said:
Ok, I think I’m begining to understand what you’re saying, but can you address my hypothetical?

I just cannot help but question God’s goodness. I cannot wrap my head around a being doing awful things to people and it being good. I want to make sure that the God that I worship is good, not just powerful, and so I am really haunted by this very serious question.
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I had great difficulty with this as well (to the point where it was threatening to destroy my faith), so you have my complete sympathy.

Here is the answer that was given to me, which I hope will be of some help to you: God’s will keeps all things that exist in existence. We don’t have a right to anything, since everything we have (our possessions, our health, our lives) are gifts from God. Sometimes he withholds these gifts, and suffering and death result.

One might ask, Why isn’t God morally obligated to freely give gifts when they cost him nothing and would bring so much happiness to us? I think that when God does withhold these things, he does it to bring about some greater good for us, if we only try to cooperate with his will.
 
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