God as a objective being

[Bahman]

So here is the problems: Suppose that one person appears to you and declares that it is God.

1. How could you be sure that it is real?
2. How could you be sure that it is conscious?
3. How could you be sure about existence of proof of God when its objective presence doesn’t carry any assurance at all?

 

[John_Martin]

So here is the problems: Suppose that one person appears to you and declares that it is God.

1. How could you be sure that it is real?
2. How could you be sure that it is conscious?
3. How could you be sure about existence of proof of God when its objective presence doesn’t carry any assurance at all?

Jesus did just that. He appeared and declared he is God.

1. Because I believe him, and his Spirit bears witness with my spirit.
2. He knew himself and said, “Before Abraham was, I am”.
3. He is true, therefore all he declared is true.

And, if you were to hold to your other threads that in the “now” nothing is “now” with me, but only apprehensions of the past, then the only conclusion is that anything and everything I “know” is a matter of faith - to recognize that there is objective reality besides myself is a matter of belief for all things, material and spiritual. Since I “believe” that the sun is still burning “right now”, I do not go and put on a warm coat for fear that 8 minutes from now I will be freezing without rays from the sun reaching me.

So, trust, not just in what I see, but also in That Person in whom there is absolutely No Deceit but Only Truth, Jesus, the Messiah from God who Is God With Us.

 

[Bahman]

Jesus did just that. He appeared and declared he is God.

Anyone can also claim so. The history is full of people who thought they were God, all of them died!

1. Because I believe him, and his Spirit bears witness with my spirit.

How you could be sure about that? I can say that I am God. Would you believe me?

1. He knew himself and said, “Before Abraham was, I am”.

There is no systematic method to test whether a person is a philosophical zombie or a natural person from second perspective. The only way to make sure that a person is not a zombie is to look at the world from his/her first perspective which is logically impossible.

1. He is true, therefore all he declared is true.

We were talking about philosophical proof. How a proof of God which is simply a construct of our imagination would be valid when we cannot be sure about objective God?

 

[John_Martin]

Anyone can also claim so. The history is full of people who thought they were God, all of them died!

How you could be sure about that? I can say that I am God. Would you believe me?

There is no systematic method to test whether a person is a philosophical zombie or a natural person from second perspective. The only way to make sure that a person is not a zombie is to look at the world from his/her first perspective which is logically impossible.

We were talking about philosophical proof. How a proof of God which is simply a construct of our imagination would be valid when we cannot be sure about objective God?

1. Jesus died too. So his dying is not what makes his claim false. He rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. And this was witnessed by Peter, whom I believe also is not lying to me.
2. No, I would not believe you are God. You have shown who you are in your threads, and when someone shows you who you are, it is good to believe them. So, I will believe what you have shown yourself to be in your posts, and not a claim by you to be God.
3. I give higher marks to my intellect’s capacity to understand intelligible objects than to call a person a philosophical zombie (having the appearance of life, without life, and having the appearance of intelligence without a thought in their head but only mechanically generated words, like Siri). I do not have to enter their soul to know they have a soul.
4. Have you not heard that when you speak God’s name, he in that instant is objectively present to you, so that not only is he an object of your knowing (imagined) but is also objectively present by his own intent. This, of course, happens in your soul’s knowing, and may or may not be presented to your brain for visualization.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

So here is the problems: Suppose that one person appears to you and declares that it is God.

1. How could you be sure that it is real?
2. How could you be sure that it is conscious?
3. How could you be sure about existence of proof of God when its objective presence doesn’t carry any assurance at all?

" Sincerity in mind and heart is the door toward divine thought and love. " And this is the key isn’t it? " Sincerity in mind and heart…, " which implies that we are conscious and that we can know objective truth, which implies that we can know that God is an objective object of knowledge, that we can know he actually exists. But we have to be sincere, otherwise our whole life is nothing but " mumbo jumbo. " So we start with the facts of history. God has revealed himself in three ways. First he reveales himself in the works he has created, in nature. Through them we know that he is an objective reality, a real living being. But this revelation is very obscure and hidden. Secondly, he reaveled himself in the history of the Israelites, through the Fathers, Abraham, Moses, Jacob, Isacc, and Joseph, and King David, and the Prophets by speaking to their minds. And lastly he put on flesh and revealed himself in the Person of his Son.

So we know from nature, from the history of the Israelites, and from his Son that God is an objective reality. So if anyone should appear claiming to be God you would know immediately that he was not, that he was a devil. But God has also appeared to some men and some women since the beginning of his Church. But such appearances are revelations to the mind, and about this you would have no mistake because devils do not have this power. St. Paul had such a revelation. And God has appeared to the minds of many of his saints. And he has sent his Mother to speak to men, and has done so for hundreds of years. So we know God is an objective reality. But if we reject the ways of knowing, being led astray by the mutterings of foolish, vain men, men devoted to the flesh and the world and all its vanities, then we will never " see " him.

The time is short, do not delay.

Linus2nd

 

[blase6]

" Sincerity in mind and heart is the door toward divine thought and love. " And this is the key isn’t it? " Sincerity in mind and heart…, " which implies that we are conscious and that we can know objective truth, which implies that we can know that God is an objective object of knowledge, that we can know he actually exists. But we have to be sincere, otherwise our whole life is nothing but " mumbo jumbo. " So we start with the facts of history. God has revealed himself in three ways. First he reveales himself in the works he has created, in nature. Through them we know that he is an objective reality, a real living being. But this revelation is very obscure and hidden. Secondly, he reaveled himself in the history of the Israelites, through the Fathers, Abraham, Moses, Jacob, Isacc, and Joseph, and King David, and the Prophets by speaking to their minds. And lastly he put on flesh and revealed himself in the Person of his Son.

So we know from nature, from the history of the Israelites, and from his Son that God is an objective reality. So if anyone should appear claiming to be God you would know immediately that he was not, that he was a devil. But God has also appeared to some men and some women since the beginning of his Church. But such appearances are revelations to the mind, and about this you would have no mistake because devils do not have this power. St. Paul had such a revelation. And God has appeared to the minds of many of his saints. And he has sent his Mother to speak to men, and has done so for hundreds of years. So we know God is an objective reality. But if we reject the ways of knowing, being led astray by the mutterings of foolish, vain men, men devoted to the flesh and the world and all its vanities, then we will never " see " him.

The time is short, do not delay.

Linus2nd

All written history is uncertain. Anyone can write anything. Even with a multitude of evidence, there is no guarantee that what was described actually happened.

There really is no certainty. Even having God “speak to you in your heart” does not reveal him certainly to you. You may only be deluding yourself.

 

[seagal]

So here is the problems: Suppose that one person appears to you and declares that it is God.

1. How could you be sure that it is real?
2. How could you be sure that it is conscious?
3. How could you be sure about existence of proof of God when its objective presence doesn’t carry any assurance at all?

Being a naturally skeptical person, I probably wouldn’t believe it. As someone else noted, Jesus actually did appear to lots of people, and lots of them didn’t believe him. (It’s interesting to think that many millions more people believe Jesus is God having never seen him.) I don’t know what it would take for me to believe, but if it really was God *he *would know and would make sure I was convinced.

The last question is a different one entirely. Even though I started out life as a believer, there are times (as I’m sure happens with every believer) when I have doubts. I’ve seen and heard lots of articles and debates and talks about whether or not God exists. Usually I find the “pro” side much more convincing than the “con” but now and then I’ll wonder if I’m just being gullible. That’s my skepticism showing. For me, what it comes down to is very simple: “nothing comes from nothing”. This vast universe we live in came from somewhere. It didn’t just pop into being out of nothing. If it did, why don’t things just pop into existence all the time? *Something *had to cause it, and that something *must *be a timeless, spaceless, immaterial, immensely powerful, personal being. In other words, God. Everything else flows from there.

 

[John_Martin]

All written history is uncertain. Anyone can write anything. Even with a multitude of evidence, there is no guarantee that what was described actually happened.

There really is no certainty. Even having God “speak to you in your heart” does not reveal him certainly to you. You may only be deluding yourself.

That is the whole point of faith, and actually of all knowing - you may be deluding yourself. And I take great delight in this Catholic “possible delusion” - Trusting Jesus and his apostolic Church makes all of the knowing make full sense such that I can function in mundane or in innovative movement in the world with an understanding of joy. I find nothing that doesn’t make sense with this “possible delusion”, and it makes a sense that is full of hope and meaning. It is all intelligible.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

There really is no certainty. Even having God “speak to you in your heart” does not reveal him certainly to you. You may only be deluding yourself.

If there is no certainty, there is also no certainty that there is no God.

Which certainty does one prefer? That there be a God, or that there be no God?

 

[blase6]

That is the whole point of faith, and actually of all knowing - you may be deluding yourself. And I take great delight in this Catholic “possible delusion” - Trusting Jesus and his apostolic Church makes all of the knowing make full sense such that I can function in mundane or in innovative movement in the world with an understanding of joy. I find nothing that doesn’t make sense with this “possible delusion”, and it makes a sense that is full of hope and meaning. It is all intelligible.

Then you are more fortunate than I am. A lot of it is unintelligible. But I persevere.

 

[John_Martin]

Then you are more fortunate than I am. A lot of it is unintelligible. But I persevere.

Glad to hear it; I actually am aware at how you are persevering. You are not unfortunate; many do not seek to know the answer to these things, to understand.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

All written history is uncertain. Anyone can write anything. Even with a multitude of evidence, there is no guarantee that what was described actually happened.

There really is no certainty. Even having God “speak to you in your heart” does not reveal him certainly to you. You may only be deluding yourself.

So the Jews just popped up at 30 or 40 BC and invented an entire history where God revealed himself through nature and to the Jewish fathers and the prophets, and Jesus Christ is a figment of our imagination, and the Church has been a ship of fools for 2,000 years. Well , you say you are Catholic. How do you square that with your chronic skepticism?

Linus2nd

 

[GEddie]

Yes, everybody becomes a victim of death.

But only our LORD came out of it!

ICXC NIKA

 

[davidv]

All written history is uncertain. Anyone can write anything. Even with a multitude of evidence, there is no guarantee that what was described actually happened.

There really is no certainty. Even having God “speak to you in your heart” does not reveal him certainly to you. You may only be deluding yourself.

What evidence do you have that shows that the history of Jesus and his teachings are fiction?

 

[brian_custer]

Yes, everybody becomes a victim of death.

But only our LORD came out of it!

ICXC NIKA

 

[blase6]

So the Jews just popped up at 30 or 40 BC and invented an entire history where God revealed himself through nature and to the Jewish fathers and the prophets, and Jesus Christ is a figment of our imagination, and the Church has been a ship of fools for 2,000 years. Well , you say you are Catholic. How do you square that with your chronic skepticism?

Linus2nd

Because my faith is in living as if all that is true. It is more coherent with perceived reality than any other religion, even if it doesn’t seem to be perfectly intelligible.

In the end though, I don’t really know if it is true or not. I hope it is.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

In the end though, I don’t really know if it is true or not. I hope it is.

Hope is a great virtue, and its greatness inspires faith.

 

[John_Martin]

Because my faith is in living as if all that is true. It is more coherent with perceived reality than any other religion, even if it doesn’t seem to be perfectly intelligible.

In the end though, I don’t really know if it is true or not. I hope it is.

Even when you come to the point of seeing it as intelligible, you will still have the same thoughts of living it as if it were all true, but not yet seeing it. That thought will keep with you, but you will (and probably already do) find it too compelling to give it up.

 

[blase6]

Even when you come to the point of seeing it as intelligible, you will still have the same thoughts of living it as if it were all true, but not yet seeing it. That thought will keep with you, but you will (and probably already do) find it too compelling to give it up.

Of course. But in the end, I am just a small creature in a strange world I cannot hope to understand or know.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Of course. But in the end, I am just a small creature in a strange world I cannot hope to understand or know.

It’s because we are small creatures in a strange world that we must rely on our Lord to give us hope and understanding and knowledge. Without our Lord, what are we?