God Calling/The Two Listeners

[Bonnie]

This book came up in a conversation with a friend. I told her that it was occult because the “two listeners” received the messages with automatic writing while one was in a trance. She said she’s been reading it for years & has found nothing wrong in it. I’ve never actually read it - only excerpts - so I had no answer for her.

After thinking on it a while, I got to wondering about Catholic versions of automatic writing & visions - Anne Catherine Emmerich, St. Bridget of Sweden, St. Faustina, etc. Other than the fact that some are approved by the Church & others are not, how does one tell the difference between “real” trances & messages & fake one?

(As a side note - I don’t believe in most of the visions/messages that are Catholic, even those approved by the Church. Thank God belief in them is not required! )

My friend is not the sort to go only with Church-approved messages, so I need something internal from “God Calling” or the lives of the 2 listeners and/or Russell, the editor, that would show the book to not be from Jesus.

 

[DavidFilmer]

As a side note - I don’t believe in most of the visions/messages that are Catholic, even those approved by the Church.

Me neither, but I don’t disbelieve. I simply have no interest in them (and no opinion).

My friend is not the sort to go only with Church-approved messages, so I need something internal from “God Calling” or the lives of the 2 listeners and/or Russell, the editor, that would show the book to not be from Jesus.

You may be interested in this article from the Christian Research Journal (a protestant and anti-Catholic publication, but it makes a number of good points about this book).

However, I doubt it will make any difference. There is a certain alleged Marian apparition which we can’t discuss here which has a number of problems, yet people still accept it (and it would not surprise me if your friend was one of them).

 

[thirddec]

I’m no expert but at no time have I been under the impression that genuine Christian mystics actively went looking for a message but rather the experiences happened to them.



I read the article ib the above post too and had further thoughts. I believe that when we pray God can and does answer our prayers and again I reiterate the not looking as when I ask I wait and see how God will answer If he chooses; I dont feel it,is my position to push God for and answer. The whole thing rings alarm bells to me as even without looking for error in the book it would be such a clever diabolical ruse to promote an occult practice that would in the end sow confusion amougst the faithfull

 

[teknotheou]

I will write a response for Two Listeners and post that latter, but the original poster mentions not agreeing with automatic writers approved by the “Church”. Here is one who is approved tlig.org/ I wrote her organization a letter. You asked the question “how does one tell the difference between “real” trances & messages & fake one?”. My letter to her will give you MY answer to that question.

Sorry it is long.

Hello,

I have read the first Book of Vassula’s given to me. Also I searched through the on-line archives.

What I don’t understand and wonder if you can help me is that Jesus said that He is the way, the truth and the life. That no one comes to the father except by him. I read this in the gospel of John Ch. 14 verse 6. What is interesting to me is that as the Apostle Paul was traveling and planting churches there was a demon possessed girl who said by the demon “These men are the servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us a way of salvation." Acts 16:17 Here we get to see a doctrine of a demon. In 1 John 4 John tells us by the Holy Spirit “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,”

So here is what I see and I hope you could tell me if I am understanding incorrectly. The demon says everything the bible says EXCEPT it uses the indefinite article instead of the definite article. He says Jesus is A way and not THE way as Jesus said and all of scripture says - a very subtle deception.

In my search of Vassula’s writings I never see the confession that the one speaking to her is Jesus Christ God who came in the flesh; that he is the way, the only way to the Father.

If Jesus is the way and the only way why is this guide to Vassula saying that Mary is co-redeemer? Again I am asking with gentleness and respect hoping to gain understanding. A woman in the crowd cried out to Jesus ““Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” But Jesus said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” Luke Ch 11 So one can be more blessed in an action of obeying God than in the action of having given birth to Jesus. Is this not what Jesus just said? That the act of obeying God is greater than the act of birthing Jesus? And another time it is said in the Gospels that Jesus’ mother is looking for him and he ignores her and says to the crowd “My mother and brothers are those who do the will of God”.

So why would Mary be co-redeemer when scripture does not say she is? Consider this scripture “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12 Salvation is only in Jesus there is NO OTHER NAME GIVEN BY HEAVEN this was said by the Apostle Peter.

If there is no other name under heaven then who is speaking to Vassula telling her that Mary is another name given? Who is this that is contradicting scripture?

Or maybe I am blind – but it seems plain to me “no other name” and “the way the only way” the only time one who says he is “a way” in scripture is by a demon possessed girl.

When John worshiped the angel in Revelation the angel rebuked him for having done so “And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy”. Revelation 19:10.

We are not even to pray to angels.

Why would we think God has given glory to Mary? As if she is completely equal to God? Especially when scripture says “I am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.” Isaiah 42:8

Yes it does say in scripture that there are gods many. But there is only one God who is worthy to receive worship. I understand the logic this entity gives is that Mary has become one with God as Jesus prayed we would. I believe those too who rightly follow God will become one with him. But they will not be God especially in light of this verse: “Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.” Isaiah 10:43 So even if she has become one with God as we should strive to do God made it clear long ago even those who become one with him and are now higher than the Angels do not become God. He will not share his glory with another and there will be no other God formed.

To be continued…

 

[teknotheou]

…continued.

This brings me to images, icons, statues, etc. I understand that we are not to have them unless God tells us to make them such as he did say to make the temple of old and the articles for it. And if he did tell us to make one if we sin by praying before it, kneeling before it, or offering incense or a candle before it we are to then destroy it. Consider this old testament scenario.

When in the desert the Israelites as a punishment were bitten by serpents. They cried out and God told Moses to make a brass snake and to hang it on a tree. Here we see God commanding an icon to be made. They were to look at this snake in order to be healed. The snake did not heal but the obedience of looking at it as God told you to look at it is what brought the healing. This became a sacred object for Israel. They began to “honor” it and to burn incense before it. King Hezekiah destroyed it. Why? Did God approve of him destroying it? God said that when he destroyed it he did right in the eyes of the Lord. How can this be? This was a sacred object commanded by God to be made how can God then agree with it being destroyed? 2 Kings 18:4

Well they were no longer in the desert were they? It was no longer needed and they were giving it honor and honor of that degree is only for God. So you see even if you light a candle to an icon or statue thinking that you are doing this for God it is wrong. Before Paul was Paul he was Saul and he thought he was doing God a favor by killing Christians as Jesus said “Some will kill you thinking they are doing God a favor”. Vassula tested this spirit as she knew how. The pity is that her brethren around her did not know how to properly tell her to test the spirits from the beginning.

The catholic and orthodox church through out history has at times removed icons only to find them come back again in the next generation. After Hezekiah died his son brought back the idolatry he had removed. 2 Kings 21:1-3 “For he rebuilt the high places which Hezekiah his father had destroyed; he raised up altars for Baal, and made a wooden image, as Ahab king of Israel had done; and he worshiped all the host of heaven and served them.”

Cry out to God for the truth. Ask him to shut the mouths of lying spirits. Anything less than Jesus being the only way and the way is not of God. We are not to pray to saints or angles scripture clearly forbids this. There is only one mediator between God and men and it is the man Christ Jesus. Yes they can appear and we can talk with them if they appear – I for one would ask for the confession: “of Jesus being the way the only way and in fact he is God who came in the flesh” prior to a conversation with them for satan himself masquerades as an angel of light Romans 11:14. And if we are warned to be careful how we entertain strangers for some have entertained angels unaware - then all the more we could have converse with fallen angels unawares. Hebrews 13:2

Oh and my thoughts on the apparitions, bleeding statues and crying statues as well as the healings. As to the healings God is not a respecter of persons he will heal if asked even if you are unrepentant he makes it to rain on the righteous and the wicked. In Pagan temples their “statues” too cry and weep blood. They have apparitions as do witches at séances. Again the delusion is subtle it is the difference between a way and the way. A very fine line – the difference of only one word. I have read and corresponded with an ex-witch who had contact with spirits who put images of themselves within the grain of the coffee table wood. She did not know she was a witch the spirits had convinced her she was working for Jesus. Remember during the exodus the magicians of Egypt were able to do nearly all the same wonders that Moses did. Revelation warns us of false signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect if they are not careful.

The only way to know for sure is to test the spirits to see if they are of God. Combine this with the fact that their message will not contradict scripture (a record of what God has already revealed - for he is unchanging he is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Hebrews 13:8). Without a spirit confessing “Jesus Christ was God in the flesh, the way, the truth, the life; the only way unto the father, the only mediator between men and God. That no other name under heaven is given by which men must be saved.” Then that spirit is a false/lying spirit.

If you see that I am missing something please tell me.

In Christ,
Brian Willess

 

[Sirach2]

Brian, it is clear that you believe your truth as evident in your letter. I suppose it is meant to teach us Catholics a thing or two, as well.

What on earth do the messages of Vassula have to do with this thread that is over a year old?

 

[teknotheou]

Sirach2 did you read my post? Did not the original poster ask how to tell if auto-writing was legit or not.

How is the time line relevant to providing information to consider? Are you trying to tell me I am stupid?

So you think I am trying to teach a catholic a thing or two? I thought that I have asked - does not scripture say? How am I seeing it wrong?

I have not tired to teach I have tried to dialogue. I have asked you to teach me. Jesus says the way and the demon girl in my Catholic bible says a way.

Rather I have asked that you teach me a thing or two.

Could you be friendlier? Please don’t be rude. You may think you are not being rude but I think you are.

Brian

 

[teknotheou]

So here is my review of two listeners that I posted on Amazon:

There are those who say this book is auto writing and thus say it is occultic.

To those I say “will you judge from the outward appearance?” You wicked lazy servant you say “there is a lion in the streets I will be slain in the streets?

Then there are those who have read it and found their “proofs” that in “their” eyes disagrees with scripture. To them I say “have you ever quoted Prov 3:5? Even read it?”

Then have you ever done it? You decide it does not agree? But you did not first acknowledge the Lord and then wait for him to answer. You decided based on your own knowledge you decided based on your traditions. If we are naked poor and blind what makes you think you can see on your own? A blind man knows he is blind and humbly accepts assistance from others. A spiritually blind man thinks he is self sufficient and eats and devours anyone who attempts to love him – even the Lord himself (he then rationalizes it was not the Lord - that that man was not sent of the Lord and thus he too kills the prophets).

Is this not what they tried to say of Jesus? He came against their traditional interpretations – so they sought to kill him!

I had issues with things in this book. I have also had issues with things the still small voice of God has said to me. Some of them punched me in the gut – it was a surgery to remove a tradition of men – a stronghold. I said “Lord I need chapter and verse. Lord this looks like a contradiction.” Sometimes he said “do you trust me?” Then a day, a week, a month or many months even many years later he gave me chapter and verse.

I tell you a mystery there is not one contradiction to scripture in this book. No I am not saying this is new revelation. No I am not saying this should be made to be part of a cannon. But as scripture says “you may all prophecy”.

But what comes first – stepping out of the boat? Or walking on water? Understanding that you can walk on water? Or walking and then understanding?

When a child learns to walk he knows by knowledge – he has seen with his physical eyes that humans can walk. But he does not know he can walk. For he has not experienced it. He has to try.

And so he tries and immediately he stumbles.

And then YOU are there - you are ready to discourage him - you jump all over his stumbling as your PROOF!!! That walking is not possible for him you say “how dare you arrogant child even try to walk!!!”

Miserable comforters - I rejoice that you don’t baby sit my children.

You are … well I will just let scripture say it 2 Tim 2:26

God seeks to lift them up but you – you kick them while they are down.

Who then is the occultic one?

Seek him not yourself; for to seek your own understanding is…to eat from the tree of knowledge which is forbidden, it is self worship, it is idolatry. But go to God as a little child that when you understand it to be false or wrong or a contradiction to not say as Peter said “not so Lord” but to say as Ananias said “But Lord?” to say “Lord it does not seem so to me. Open my eyes tell me the truth NO MATTER WHAT IT TAKES”.

Will he give you a stone? A scorpion? Then why fear asking for understanding? Why fear to be OPEN MINDED? Forget all that you know and know only Christ and him crucified.

No where is it testified that these writers hands moved automatically.

In Love,
Brian Willess
Teknotheou@gmail.com

 

[Sirach2]

So you think I am trying to teach a catholic a thing or two? I thought that I have asked - does not scripture say? How am I seeing it wrong?
I have not tried to teach I have tried to dialogue.

:ehh: Dialogue? You could have fooled me, when you wrote, “If you see that I am missing something please tell me.” It seems rather dogmatic.

Could you be friendlier? Please don’t be rude. You may think you are not being rude but I think you are.

When a Protestant or whomever comes to a Catholic website with emphatic statements that demean our faith, you think it is rude to assert that they are trying to “teach us?” Your witness, Counsellor …

• This brings me to images, icons, statues, etc. I understand that we are not to have them
• So you see even if you light a candle to an icon or statue thinking that you are doing this for God it is wrong.
• We are not to pray to saints or angles scripture clearly forbids this.
• Oh and my thoughts on the apparitions, bleeding statues and crying statues as well as the healings. As to the healings God is not a respecter of persons he will heal if asked even if you are unrepentant he makes it to rain on the righteous and the wicked. In Pagan temples their “statues” too cry and weep blood.
• They have apparitions as do witches at séances.

You insult our use of statues, candles, praying to saints, and authentic apparitions, but do not consider yourself as being the rude one? As I said, you believe your truth, so what’s left to debate?

 

[teknotheou]

Sirach2,

If the post being old is a valid argument, then why have you contradicted it?

You read my post to an old thread and you then posted yourself.

Your actions do not agree with your words.

Would Sirach (writer of the book) have falsely accused me of being off topic? Wouldn’t he being wise have seen that the original post had two questions?

Can we learn to treat each other as we want to be treated? Instead of trying to control each other while contradicting our statements with our actions.

Isn’t this what hypocrisy is?

Wanting to be a friend,
Brian

“A man who has friends must himself be friendly,…”

Some more to think about:
“He who spares his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.” Proverbs 13:24
If I don’t discipline my child I am then hating him? Yes or no.
“You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him.” Leviticus 19:17
If we tell someone they are unfriendly we are loving them? Yes or no.
If we don’t tell them we are then hating them? Yes or no.
If we don’t tell them of their sin just as we might not help our children, we are an accomplice to their sin and have sin of our own – hatred? Yes or no.

 

[Sirach2]

Brian:

If the post being old is a valid argument, then why have you contradicted it?

Brian, there is a miscommunication somewhere in the way you have read my post.

Sirach2:

What on earth do the messages of Vassula have to do with this thread that is over a year old?

I addressed only your post from yesterday morning, stating that I fail to understand how your letter to Vassula has anything to do with the topic (which happened to be a year old).

It seems very strange that you are complaining about that, rather than address the serious points I mentioned regarding your insulting our Catholic faith. You glossed right over it, and somehow still think I am being rude and unfriendly. Well, since you are bypassing my true meaning in favor of an imagined slight, I guess we have no further words for one another.

Do keep in mind that you are on a CATHOLIC forum, and most members would take offense at their faith being insulted … especially when you are not here to ask questions for clarification, but rather to interpret the true meaning of scripture for us, according to Brian.

 

[steve9191]

Could someone please elaborate for me what is meant by “automatic writing”.

 

[Sirach2]

Steve, I think the OP, who never read the book, was under a false impression that it was “automatic writing;” i.e., written under a trance or ecstacy. No so. I have the book and there is nothing in the preface that indicates the women who received the messages, received them in an extraordinary way … no it was simply inspiration that they committed to writing.

I have benefited very much from reading it. Many daily messages were uplifting, encouraging, and actually spoke to me that, yes, this is the Lord’s character. It is not theological and contains no doctrine, so it is safe to read. I can image why anyone would find fault with it. You can read the daily meditations on line here each day from the book. Here is today’s thought.

September 19 - Full Joy
These things have I spoken unto you… that your joy might be full. - John 15:11
Remember that the Truths I teach you have all been given to you too (as to My disciples of old) with the idea of giving you that overflowing Joy …
Search for the Joy in life. Hunt for it as for hidden treasure. Love and Laugh. Delight yourselves in the Lord.
Joy in Me. Full Joy it was I wished My disciples to have. I intended them to have it. Had they lived My Teachings out in their daily lives they would have had Fullness of Joy.

Back to automatic writing … we know that one saint in particular received direction from Jesus and a secretary wrote down her revelations. That was St. Catherine of Siena. She did not do the writing, per se.

The other saints mentioned by the OP did not write under an ecstacy or trance, either. Their confessors ordered them to write down all of their mystical experiences, and they did so under obedience. How useful they are for all of us! St. Teresa’s books were the basis of her being named Doctor of the Church, for the accuracy and profound depth of the teaching therein.