God-Centered Mass v People-Centered

[Lux_et_veritas]

Penitent:

I read this when it was first posted yesterday and decided to wait a bit before posting…I have attended Tridentine Masses regularly and find the reverence and difference in worship wonderful, exhilerating and absolutely beautiful. I attend Mass mostly (and daily) at my local parish, a N.O. Mass…I find worship exactly the same, wonderful, exhilerating and absolutely beautiful. But this post has made me a little less excited about attending the Tridentine service, and I’ll try to explain why.

Perhaps if you’re only “God-centered” for approximately one hour a week for Sunday services, then the Mass you attend may seem more important to you…When you have an overwhelming love for God, when you have such love that it doesn’t matter how He answers your prayers but only that He loves you so much and so intimately that He answers you at all, then it’s only natural your love for Him spills over to how you treat others and how you treat your family…

I say this with charity, I really do, but no one is going to convince me that I’m not God-centered because I have contact with my family or neighbor, but as I said, I’m in Mass everyday, adoration nearly everyday, and prayer as often as possible, so maybe my slant is a bit different.

Penitent

I truly thank you for your well thought out, and carefully worded disagreement. This is positive discussion and I know that my early thoughts are raw and development is ongoing. This does not mean that I am 100% correct and that is what I’m trying to explore in this discussion. So, bring it on

I think with the children it all depends on age. It is just that it struck me hard how little attention parents needed to give their kids in the pews in front of me and then it had hit me that these people had not only taught themselves to focus as highly as they can on God during the mass, but that they were teaching their children by their examples - much in the way I learned from watching the example of Fr. Perrone each morning at Mass. In a sense, his actions tell me, “it’s ok, the water is warm - dive in deeply”.

Just as no two religious orders or sisters are the same, I believe it is ditto for worship. If I put a Dominican Nun next to a Carmlite Nun, we will find differences, but both are legitimate. If I put a Carmelite next to a Franciscan, ditto. Maybe it is just the same with worship and my aim here is to get people to explore the possibility of trying something new. For older generations this experience is not new, but for those of us born after Vatican 2, it is.

It will be a challenge for people to find those moments that were lost in some distraction or another and accept that they engaged in it. It was for me. First I saw it as a simple matter of virtue - or lack thereof. Now I see blatant sinfulness in some of the behaviors in engaged in while in the height of the Mass.

I won’t be spending a half-hour, and through consecration making goo-goo faces at babies during mass anymore - at any parish. See my point, it is a personal thing to become God-Centered and it doesn’t happen overnight. It is a slow process of recognizing the distractions, the peeling them away one by one. For some it will be difficult. For others, they simply won’t want to even look within. For those who do, they will find a pot of gold on the other side.

Thanks again.

 

[rwoehmke]

Well Diane, I am happy that you find the TLM at Grotto so uplifting. I used to know that parish when it was staffed by the Precious Blood Fathers from Carthegina, Ohio. For myself, I attended TLM for the first 30 some years of my life. The best times were at Christmas Midnight Mass (A Solemn High with three priests) when we could sing our lungs out. The rest of the year was pretty bare of feeling very close to God. Then for me the miracle of the Mass of Paul VI in English arrived and new hymns by the St. Louis Jesuits. I felt like I had died and gone to heaven. (Admittedly some of the new songs before Glory and Praise were really bad.) I still like singing most of the old hymns as well. What I really liked was not being isolated with focus only on a judgemental Father, but realizing that here we were a part of Christ’s family come together to praise, worship, and thank Him for making us a part of His world wide community of believers. It made Paul’s concept of the Body of Christ very real. When I want to be alone with Him He is still there in the tabernacle where He has always been for centuries. I think perhaps Father Bob O’Connel who was our pastor in the 70"s best summed it all up when he said,“In the Catholic Church there is room for all kinds of spiritualities and no one will ever tell you to leave because youare different.” Jesus loves us so very much that He comes to us in the Eucharist, His proclaimed Word, and His brothers and sisters gathered in prayer; many of us the least of His brethren.

 

[JNB]

The ironic thing about the Assumtion Grotto is while the mass is in Latin, it is not the TLM but it is a Novus Ordo in Latin. While this may be shocking, it is the EXACT same missal in use as in the vast majority of parishes, but in Latin celebrated with traditional rubrics(such as ad orientem position of the priest, no altar girls, no EMHCs, and use of the altar rail). Prehaps the differences between the new and old mass are not as different when the best example of a Novus Ordo is put against the best example of the TLM.

 

[annemjones96]

Lux_et_veritas:

You raise a really good point, from another angle. Thanks for sharing that.

I can tell you that the “children” issue goes much deeper than how they behave at mass as I had not been God-Centered and spent much time observing different couples and how their children were behaving in Mass (see, a People-Centered moment).

Take for example a family I’ve seen that has (at last count) 11 children. You would think this would be stressful. The youngest was an infant of maybe 6 months and all were very, very close in age. The kids were well groomed, well dressed, content and relaxed. All but the toddler were sitting still and behaving without even a glance from mom and dad. Now, young toddlers clung to mom and dad, but both parents had the most peaceful look on their face, it was unreal. Their patience was exceptional. I knew that if I ever had kids, I was going to go over there and offer to help that woman in return for her secrets (like, can you be my “mommy mentor”. Her face did not have the usual strain that many mothers have. It was full of love and compassion. I wasn’t the only one who noticed this. My mother wants her nominated as an American saint.

Contrast that to a couple sitting a few pews over who can’t control a single child.

This goes to discipline, or lack thereof. One only needs to watch Nanny 911 or Supernanny to see how structure and discipline “fix” those problems - no hitting required. Obviously, mother of 11, figured it out. With that many kids, there has to be structure and discipline.

Somehow, I think the parents of the Grotto have figured out too that with kids, it is a matter of conditioning. Don’t make THEM the center of the mass and they won’t look for attention. But too many parents blow away the hour focusing on the kids and the kids demand yet more attention.

I suspect the grotto has a fair amount of stay-at-home moms. In fact, they have a huge home-schooling program which is tied into the Micigan Catholic Home Schooling program (if I got that right). It is not uncommon to see several sets of parents and children at the 7:30 or 8:30 am Mass, and I’ve even seen a few at Lauds at 7:00 am.

Please don’t judge that parents of that one child. You don’t know what is going on in their house. I know there are some parents on this board who have autistic children. I have 2. You would never know just by looking that there is something different about these children. One of the biggest sturggles of being a parent of a child with autism is the judgment that strangers make, and a lot of the time very vocal judgements. Just something to think about when you see a parent strugling with their child. It may not always be the case. There are a lot of parents who don’t discipline their children. There are a lot of kids who go through school, and they don’t have much discipline there either. We have an intern from Africa at the nature center where I work. He is shocked by the lack of discipline and respect most of the kids he has seen here have. There have been times when i have had to take one of my chldren out of Mass and both of us were in tears. It can be extremely frustrating for both of us. He is overwhelmed by something and just can’t handle it. I’m am upset and embaressed. I know it is not his fault, but I know there are those around me who don’t know us and are making judgements.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

annemjones96:

Please don’t judge that parents of that one child. You don’t know what is going on in their house. I know there are some parents on this board who have autistic children. I have 2. You would never know just by looking that there is something different about these children. One of the biggest sturggles of being a parent of a child with autism is the judgment that strangers make, and a lot of the time very vocal judgements. Just something to think about when you see a parent strugling with their child. It may not always be the case. There are a lot of parents who don’t discipline their children. There are a lot of kids who go through school, and they don’t have much discipline there either. We have an intern from Africa at the nature center where I work. He is shocked by the lack of discipline and respect most of the kids he has seen here have. There have been times when i have had to take one of my chldren out of Mass and both of us were in tears. It can be extremely frustrating for both of us. He is overwhelmed by something and just can’t handle it. I’m am upset and embaressed. I know it is not his fault, but I know there are those around me who don’t know us and are making judgements.

I will remember your post the next time I frown at the noise a child makes in church. Forgive us. When you have to leave with your little one, I rather imagine that the Hand of the Holy One must surely overshadow you and hold you up. God bless you.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

annemjones96:

Please don’t judge that parents of that one child. You don’t know what is going on in their house. I know there are some parents on this board who have autistic children. I have 2. You would never know just by looking that there is something different about these children. One of the biggest sturggles of being a parent of a child with autism is the judgment that strangers make, and a lot of the time very vocal judgements. Just something to think about when you see a parent strugling with their child. It may not always be the case. There are a lot of parents who don’t discipline their children. There are a lot of kids who go through school, and they don’t have much discipline there either. We have an intern from Africa at the nature center where I work. He is shocked by the lack of discipline and respect most of the kids he has seen here have. There have been times when i have had to take one of my chldren out of Mass and both of us were in tears. It can be extremely frustrating for both of us. He is overwhelmed by something and just can’t handle it. I’m am upset and embaressed. I know it is not his fault, but I know there are those around me who don’t know us and are making judgements.

Sorry if I came across as judgemental and let me please clarify. You still may not agree, but I can only just post what I observed. One thing I should clear up is that I wasn’t referring to toddlers - maybe the 4-6 year old crew. It’s not subjective or judgemental to say that several families with just one or two kids within my view were restless in the pew, whereas I did not witness this same kind of restlessness out of the several families in my view at the Grotto - its fact. That is an objective statement, I believe. I apologize for making it sound subjective and thanks for helping me to see that it came across that way.

Let me try this way…I wasn’t talking about just one child and one set of parents or parent, which does sound judgemental. I was actually referring to many, many children that have sat in front of me at any given mass, at any number of parishes, with toys, cheerios and the like. Not only did the parents appear to be adoring how cute their children played during Mass, but so did I for a good long time, I might add. In fact, I missed half the Mass doing this and that shows that I was not God-Centered during that time, I was People-Centered. The bulk of same age children within my view at the Grotto have the absence of those things and sit relatively content, as if conditioned to just deal with the hour. I truly think it is conditioning. That is a subjective statement and may very well be judgemental.

In the one example I gave of the mother and father with 11 children, I could look in any direction during the mass and see the complete opposite of what she had sitting between her and her husband. I saw her children’s behavior, pretty much aligned with what I witnessed the few times I’ve been at Assumption Grotto. So, what is the secret?

There is something to the restlessness of so many kids in one “set” of environments, versus the lack of restlessness in another single environment. I can’t say it is the Mass that does it, that would be silly.

My whole point originally is that the parents seem to be focused on the Mass and not their kids. This doesn’t mean there isn’t an occassinial glance or touch from the parents at the Grotto. It means they aren’t spending the bulk of the mass responding to their children’s apparent desire for attention.

I’ve had much exposure to autistic children and I know there are varying degrees, some looking as if they don’t have the condition. However, statistically, even if there were autistic among the many, it would be a small minority of those children I’ve seen over the years.

More thoughts are welcome - feedback or biteback.

My writing is like a wood block. It takes time and wittling to get to the final product and right now it is ongoing. In the comments you are all making, you are showing me where I may need to re-evaluate a statement, or clarify it.

I really appreciate the civil tone that everyone has kept as I know this is a potentially touchy subject.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

There is something to the restlessness of so many kids in one “set” of environments, versus the lack of restlessness in another single environment. I can’t say it is the Mass that does it, that would be silly.

I’d like to expand on my own statement here.

I see, in the people, and in the parents just a very high level of “displayed” reverence and respect (objective) that I sense deeply is genuine (subjective). The people who enter Assumption Grotto have a very high degree of respect for the signs posted on the doors and even in the Sacristy to observe silence in the church. It is in out of respect for the Blessed Sacrament in the building. My belief is that these parents are simply respecting this tradition of silence and by their example, passing it on to their children. Better yet, I think it is just plain rubbing off on the children. I would have to believe from a very young age, the parents encourage silence and stillness during mass.

Maybe I’m thinking this because I recall my father doing this with me when I was young. I was not allowed to have toys and cheerios in Church, nor was I allowed to lay on a pew, or chew bubble-gum, or dance in the aisles. I recall a few times how I was told what was going to happen when I got home if I didn’t stop and the folks followed through when I didn’t (and I don’t mean hitting). Maybe it was a privilege taken away for a time, or whatever.

I may have to sit through several masses in a given weekend (to meet my God-Centered obligation), just so I can sit back and see if it is my imagination that there is less child restlessness in one church than there is in all the 5 or 6 others combined that I’ve attended over the years.

Any Grotto people out there reading that can tell me if I was dreaming?

 

[Giannawannabe]

I don’t think you’re dreaming Diane. The whole atmosphere at Grotto demands respectful attention. The parents, in general, are there because they believe in what you refer to as a “God-centered” Mass. As a former homeschooler and one who has tried since my children were babies, to instill in them respect for The Blessed Sacrament—genuflecting, making “visits” to Jesus in The Blessed Sacrament, etc., I can tell you that most of the parents at The Grotto are raising their children in much the same way. Once children realize that Jesus is really, truly there, physically present at Mass, it changes the whole idea of why one attends Mass. We do not belong to Assumption Grotto, but we have attended Mass there. We have also attended Mass at S.S. Cyril and Methodius in Sterling Heights which has the same atmosphere of reverence and respect. We act the same at ALL Mass and at ALL churches that we attend. ( Even if there aren’t kneelers or you can’t find the Tabernacle. ).

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Phew!

I hate to put it this way, but it has the appearance of mass discipline at one parish versus mass indiscipline at many others I’ve attended. And remember, I’m not in any way absolving myself of the guilt associated with being “People-Centered” as I sat and enjoyed the kids when I was suppose to be enjoying Jesus.

It’s a state of mind that one CAN carry into any other parish, but I must say that the Grotto’s environment is conducive to it. The more I think about it, the more firm I have to stand on that. The culture sets the environment and the culture there is just plain highly reverent. I may add, that they are reverent in ways I would have thought strange had I seen them in any of the other churches I attended because just like Oran’s Posture, it stands out and gets attention and people don’t want to draw attention to themselves.

I think the Grotto has drawn people of a certain type who choose to worship in a certain manner without have OTHERS judge them for these behaviors. Because it is the orthodox Catholic that is on the receiving end of the judgements more often than not.

I had a relative upset because an elderly couple would not shake her hand during the sign of peace. I observed that they had never extended a hand to anyone and later asked someone who grew up pre-vatican II and asked the simple question: Did you guys shake hands back then or did that come in after Vatican II? And I was told it was the latter - Vatican II. Now, at that point, I reiterated for my aunt that she should not take offense, but simply respect their wishes in all charity for what they believe. If it is ok to worship with your hands held high and dancing on the altar, then why is it not ok to stare straight ahead and not extend a hand at the sign of peace - without being judged?

I think my orthodox side is finally bursting out of the closet.

I will freely admit, and shamefully, that over my entire life I have had an orthodox streak in me and I suppressed it to fit in, and to conform. Is this fair that I should be forced into the kind of worship that is now so commonplace?

I think I’m still seething over the time that I took a Theology Class at Sacred Heart Seminary in the 80’s only to have the teacher, a priest, make a snide remark about people who pray the Rosary. Well, I didn’t pray the Rosary, but it was near and dear to my Father and it offended me beyond words - I dropped the class and ran in the other direction out of fear he may teach me other things I didn’t care to learn. That was a lack of charity and being judgemental. However, judgementalism seems to be something that only an orthodox is capable of in the minds of some.

Gosh! That felt great now that I got that one out of the closet.

:dancing:

 

[annemjones96]

Lux_et_veritas:

Sorry if I came across as judgemental and let me please clarify. You still may not agree, but I can only just post what I observed. One thing I should clear up is that I wasn’t referring to toddlers - maybe the 4-6 year old crew. It’s not subjective or judgemental to say that several families with just one or two kids within my view were restless in the pew, whereas I did not witness this same kind of restlessness out of the several families in my view at the Grotto - its fact. That is an objective statement, I believe. I apologize for making it sound subjective and thanks for helping me to see that it came across that way.

Let me try this way…I wasn’t talking about just one child and one set of parents or parent, which does sound judgemental. I was actually referring to many, many children that have sat in front of me at any given mass, at any number of parishes, with toys, cheerios and the like. Not only did the parents appear to be adoring how cute their children played during Mass, but so did I for a good long time, I might add. In fact, I missed half the Mass doing this and that shows that I was not God-Centered during that time, I was People-Centered. The bulk of same age children within my view at the Grotto have the absence of those things and sit relatively content, as if conditioned to just deal with the hour. I truly think it is conditioning. That is a subjective statement and may very well be judgemental.

In the one example I gave of the mother and father with 11 children, I could look in any direction during the mass and see the complete opposite of what she had sitting between her and her husband. I saw her children’s behavior, pretty much aligned with what I witnessed the few times I’ve been at Assumption Grotto. So, what is the secret?

There is something to the restlessness of so many kids in one “set” of environments, versus the lack of restlessness in another single environment. I can’t say it is the Mass that does it, that would be silly.

My whole point originally is that the parents seem to be focused on the Mass and not their kids. This doesn’t mean there isn’t an occassinial glance or touch from the parents at the Grotto. It means they aren’t spending the bulk of the mass responding to their children’s apparent desire for attention.

**I’ve had much exposure to autistic children and I know there are varying degrees, some looking as if they don’t have the condition. However, statistically, even if there were autistic among the many, it would be a small minority of those children I’ve seen over the years. **

More thoughts are welcome - feedback or biteback.

My writing is like a wood block. It takes time and wittling to get to the final product and right now it is ongoing. In the comments you are all making, you are showing me where I may need to re-evaluate a statement, or clarify it.

I really appreciate the civil tone that everyone has kept as I know this is a potentially touchy subject.

You are right that there are varying degrees, but most of the time you can’t tell by first glance. I know a girl who is completely non verbal. Untill her parents tell you that, you have no idea. That is not to say she doesn’t make noises or gestures or movements. But she has an understanding and respect for the ture presence and just recieved her first comunion. I agree, and the toys and food drive me nuts too. But I would never get through a mass with my middle son if I didn’t bring a couple books for him. There are days where it is just too stimmulating for him in there. He needs the retreat of the book just to function. Some kids have an object the focus on that they need just to function. My older son LOVES the mass. He loves the eucharist and can’t wait to make his first communion. He wants to be a priest when he grows up. But there are still times when he get get through Mass with out stimming. To others it would look like squirming. I will agree that the majority of the kids you see with cherrios and toys are not autistic. But my point is, you don’t know. There are times when I have to hold my son in mass becuase it can be too much. I have had vocal judgements made to me during Mass while visiting another parish. It is a big struggle for me. I would love to be more God centered at Mass. I can easily lose myself in the Mass. I used to go without them and leave them home with DH. But it didn’t feel right. Taking them is frustrating for me, but they need to be exposed to the Mass. I think they will eventually be like the family of 11 kids. My 2 1/2 year old daughter who does not have autism is perfectly able to sit through Mass.

Next post

 

[annemjones96]

I guess what I’m driving at is, you are right. The majority of kids you see at Mass with cherrios and toys don’t need it, but some may need something to get through. What would happen if I went to Mass at the Assumption Grotto (I have been there before, but many years ago) with my children. Would I be looked down upon? I’m not trying to be mean or nasty or anything. I just feel like I have to fight the world a lot of times for the sake of my kids. I would think church would be one place where I shouldn’t have to do that.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

I do believe you are the exception, and an due to the circumstances that you have, I believe you are an exceptional mom. Such gifted children are often sent to such gifted parents and I can truly empathize with the pain you describe when people don’t understand.

I do make allowances when I see this and this is the first time in 42 years that i’ve ever said anything or even felt compelled to say anything about the behavior of children in mass. It was never an issue for me because I had never seen another example - until, I got to the Grotto. Dropping into there was pure culture shock because my sensitive anthropolocial mind was just pinging with “alert big differences in here - what’s going on?”

I have used this skill in my company for various tasks and committees and have been sought out at different times because I just happen to notice things the average person may not see. And, it often is met with suspicions that I’m just being judgemental. It’s rather a curiosity for cultures.

You should see the book I could write on the sub-cultures within the convent in which I lived for 2.5 years, but I won’t laughs. I mean, every culture has it’s norms and mores and I find it intriguing to note and discuss them. Some people always get offended and others laugh and say, “hey, you’ve made an interesting observation”.

.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

annemjones96:

I guess what I’m driving at is, you are right. The majority of kids you see at Mass with cherrios and toys don’t need it, but some may need something to get through. What would happen if I went to Mass at the Assumption Grotto (I have been there before, but many years ago) with my children. Would I be looked down upon? I’m not trying to be mean or nasty or anything. I just feel like I have to fight the world a lot of times for the sake of my kids. I would think church would be one place where I shouldn’t have to do that.

I’ll bet you do have to fight the world and it is a pity. I can imagine some people being harsh. For some reason, I don’t know that anyone would say anything to you there because they seemed to be focused on the Mass. That would be an interesting thing to see tho (and I"m not promoting a test of any kind).