God created us out of His Divine Love

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We don’t know why God created us, though we may speculate ad infinitum.

We do know God is love though, and so the why of it reduces to moot.

🙂
 
I wrote "endowing
An example of a pagan custom the Church has endowed with Christian significance is the celebration of Christmas on the Winter Solstice, the feast of Saturnalia. My statement has nothing to do with an article by the Pope or African bishops.
The biggest problem was taking Africans and Europeans together because of the wide contrast in skin colour. I learned to avoid doing it in the midday tropical sun…
It appears to me that you are more interested in skin color…

The only reason I mentioned skin colour is because in the midday tropical sun the shadows on a dark skin make it more difficult to photograph at the same time as a fair skin. My students were Africans…

I
 
An example of a pagan custom the Church has endowed with Christian significance is the celebration of Christmas on the Winter Solstice, the feast of Saturnalia. My statement has nothing to do with an article by the Pope or African bishops.
I reviewed the previous page and you did give me the impression it was about the Vatican article I had presented. 🙂 I’ve never heard of the feast of Saturnalia. Tonyrey, the celebration of Christmas isn’t a pagan feast. And it isn’t what you eariler stated, " endowing pagan customs with Christian significance". BENEDICT XVI stated:
In fact, the pagan religion did not follow the ways of the Logos, but clung to myth, even if Greek philosophy recognized that mythology was devoid of consistency with the truth.
Therefore, the decline of the pagan religion was inevitable: it was a logical consequence of the detachment of religion - reduced to an artificial collection of ceremonies, conventions and customs - from the truth of being.
Justin, and with him other apologists, adopted the clear stance taken by the Christian faith for the God of the philosophers against the false gods of the pagan religion.
It was the choice of the truth of being against the myth of custom. Several decades after Justin, Tertullian defined the same option of Christians with a lapidary sentence that still applies: “Dominus noster Christus veritatem se, non consuetudinem, cognominavit - Christ has said that he is truth not fashion” (De Virgin. Vel. 1, 1).
It should be noted in this regard that the term consuetudo, used here by Tertullian in reference to the pagan religion, can be translated into modern languages with the expressions: “cultural fashion”, “current fads”.
In a time like ours, marked by relativism in the discussion on values and on religion - as well as in interreligious dialogue - this is a lesson that should not be forgotten.
To this end, I suggest to you once again - and thus I conclude - the last words of the mysterious old man whom Justin the Philosopher met on the seashore: “Pray that, above all things, the gates of light may be opened to you; for these things cannot be perceived or understood by all, but only by the man to whom God and his Christ have imparted wisdom” (Dial. 7: 3).
I don’t think this is a pagan statement by Pope BENEDICT XVI:
BENEDICT XVI
St Peter’s Square
Fourth Sunday of Advent, 21 December 2008
Dear Brothers and Sisters,
[snip][Fill our hearts with your love, and as you revealed to us by an angel the coming of your Son as man, so lead us through his suffering and death to the glory of his Resurrection]. With only a few days until the Feast of Christmas, we are invited to fix our gaze on the ineffable mystery that Mary treasured for nine months in her virginal womb: the mystery of God who is made man. This is the first foundation of the redemption. The second is the death and Resurrection of Jesus and these two inseparable aspects express a single divine plan: to save humanity and its history, assuming them fully by taking on the entire burden of all the evil that oppresses it.
Beyond its historical dimension, this mystery of salvation also has a cosmic dimension: Christ is the sun of grace who, with his life, “transfigures and enflames the expectant universe” (cf. Liturgy). The Christmas festivity is placed within and linked to the winter solstice when, in the northern hemisphere, the days begin once again to lengthen. In this regard perhaps not everyone knows that in St Peter’s Square there is also a meridian; in fact, the great obelisk casts its shadow in a line that runs along the paving stones toward the fountain beneath this window and in these days, the shadow is at its longest of the year. This reminds us of the role of astronomy in setting the times of prayer. The Angelus, for example, is recited in the morning, at noon and in the evening, and clocks were regulated by the meridian which in ancient times made it possible to know the “exact midday”.
The fact that the winter solstice occurs exactly today, 21 December, and at this very time, offers me the opportunity to greet all those who will be taking part in various capacities in the initiatives for the World Year of Astronomy, 2009, established on the fourth centenary of Galileo Galilei’s first observations by telescope. Among my Predecessors of venerable memory there were some who studied this science, such as Sylvester II who taught it, Gregory XIII to whom we owe our calendar, and St Pius X who knew how to build sundials. If the heavens, according to the Psalmist’s beautiful words, “are telling the glory of God” (Ps 19[18]: 1), the laws of nature which over the course of centuries many men and women of science have enabled us to understand better are a great incentive to contemplate the works of the Lord with gratitude.
Let us now turn our gaze again to Mary and Joseph who were awaiting the birth of Jesus and learn from them the secret of reflection in order to taste the joy of Christmas. Let us prepare ourselves to welcome with faith the Redeemer who comes to be with us, the Word of God’s love for humanity of every epoch.
The Magi *were *pagans but that changed. Read #528:
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a3p3.htm.

Good luck with the camera. I’ve been snapping photos of the inside and outside of a private castle.😃 Statuary everywhere! Got some phenomenal photos. Not only the statue but also the shadow of it. Have a good one. Take it easy.🙂
 
I read that on another post.

What does that mean - created us out of His divine Love? And Divine love for who? And why - why not just leave us uncreated? And what sort of love is it that creates other creatures to worship the creator?

Edited to say this is not an ‘‘anti’’ post - I would just like to look further into the ideas.

Sarah x 🙂
This is a great subject I have been meditating upon for many months now. If what I am about to say have been said already, perhaps I will complete or reaffirm what others have said, if not, I am glad to share:

To be more precise, love is not what God does, but what God is. So it is impossible for God to love for a while and not love an other while or to change mood etc. In, fact, when we say that God is unchanging, the true meaning is ‘true love is the one that is unchanging’ = God is ever faithful = God is almighty.

So God creates because of his nature: love is creative by its very nature.
And love is not creative because it is bored, but because it fond of giving gifts.
So every creatures has the natural imprint of love: it is a gift. But a gift to who?
God is self-sufficient, He does not need anything.
In God, the three persons are already gifts of each other. Their life is self-gift.
He is Father because the other is Son and vice-versa.
He is Holy Spirit because the others are Father and Son.
Love, self-gift are build in them. It is their nature.

So if creatures are gift, to whom are the gifts given.
Gifts can only be given to a person if they are to be seen in the full truth of what they are: gift.
Gifts also have a meaning, they always mean something, so they lead to something.
What a person eventually realize as a Christian is this:
All creatures were made for man, but not as random meaningless gifts but as messenger introducing the one who sent the gifts before himself.

When a baby is born, the first thing he may notice may not be his mother, or father. But the breast of his mother, the comfort of her arms, the songs, etc…but as the baby grow, he will notice that all those things, were from someone, a person, his mother and father.

So humanity also first notice created things, we study them, we notice that they mean something, we start interpreting what they mean, we eventually realize that they are signs pointing to something. Once, we feel love, and realize that love gives gifts, and realize that all things around us are gifts, then we start wondering who gave them and why. Then we start wanting to see them, then we start calling them to reveal themselves. Then we realize that we can’t force them out, after all we didn’t force the gifts out. So we learn to pray, to be thankful of what we have, and patiently wait with certain faith, that who sent the gifts will eventually come himself. At this point, we are not surprised if we hear that he came, and came as a gift: a baby.
Later we will not be surprise if the baby tells us more about his divine home, talks about the Father, Son,… hmmm obviously, where else did we get these imprint in ourselves if our maker did not know about them. How did we get gifted of relationships if relationships did not exist before any creature come to be? if they were not meant to prepare us for the ultimate relationship?

So At the end, I find that God is himself the ultimate gift. And this gift is what is known as Heaven. So heaven is not a place, but the ‘perfect’ relationship with God; God himself.

true worship = love absolutely.
Evidently, the one who deserve absolute love is the one who is love itself in its best.

God bless
 
Nablaise, that is a beautiful and moving exposition! Thank you. We can move from here to that and nothing changes. But when we move internally, the world changes.
 
I reviewed the previous page and you did give me the impression it was about the Vatican article I had presented. 🙂 I’ve never heard of the feast of Saturnalia. Tonyrey, the celebration of Christmas isn’t a pagan feast. And it isn’t what you earlier stated, " endowing pagan customs with Christian significance".
The celebration of Christmas isn’t a pagan feast but it is the **substitution **
 
The celebration of Christmas isn’t a pagan feast but it is the **substitution **of a Christmas feast for a pagan feast held at the same time of the year. Similarly enlightened missionaries have given a Christian meaning to local customs in Africa and elsewhere, notably in their music and dancing.
How big a portion of all that is in recognition of the probability that if that wasn’t done, those nice folks would have a far smaller tendency to convert?
 
This is a great subject I have been meditating upon for many months now. If what I am about to say have been said already, perhaps I will complete or reaffirm what others have said, if not, I am glad to share:

To be more precise, love is not what God does, but what God is. So it is impossible for God to love for a while and not love an other while or to change mood etc. In, fact, when we say that God is unchanging, the true meaning is ‘true love is the one that is unchanging’ = God is ever faithful = God is almighty …]
You may like to read what I have written on page 3 and 4. This is how I understand God and his existence::

BENEDICT XVI
ANGELUS
Solemnity of the Most Holy Trinity
Saint Peter’s Square
Sunday, 7 June 2009
Dear Brothers and Sisters,

After the Easter Season which culminated in the Feast of Pentecost, the liturgy provides for these three Solemnities of the Lord: today, Trinity Sunday; next Thursday, Corpus Christi which in many countries, including Italy, will be celebrated next Sunday; and finally, on the following Friday, the Feast of the Sacred Heart of Jesus. Each one of these liturgical events highlights a perspective by which the whole mystery of the Christian faith is embraced: and that is, respectively the reality of the Triune God, the Sacrament of the Eucharist and the divine and human centre of the Person of Christ. These are truly aspects of the one mystery of salvation which, in a certain sense, sum up the whole itinerary of the revelation of Jesus, from his Incarnation to his death and Resurrection and, finally, to his Ascension and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Today we contemplate the Most Holy Trinity as Jesus introduced us to it. He revealed to us that God is love “not in the oneness of a single Person, but in the Trinity of one substance” (Preface). He is the Creator and merciful Father; he is the Only-Begotten Son, eternal Wisdom incarnate, who died and rose for us; he is the Holy Spirit who moves all things, cosmos and history, toward their final, full recapitulation. Three Persons who are one God because the Father is love, the Son is love, the Spirit is love. God is wholly and only love, the purest, infinite and eternal love. He does not live in splendid solitude but rather is an inexhaustible source of life that is ceaselessly given and communicated. To a certain extent we can perceive this by observing both the macro-universe: our earth, the planets, the stars, the galaxies; and the micro-universe: cells, atoms, elementary particles. The “name” of the Blessed Trinity is, in a certain sense, imprinted upon all things because all that exists, down to the last particle, is in relation; in this way we catch a glimpse of God as relationship and ultimately, Creator Love. All things derive from love, aspire to love and move impelled by love, though naturally with varying degrees of awareness and freedom. “O Lord, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth!” (Ps 8: 1) the Psalmist exclaims. In speaking of the “name”, the Bible refers to God himself, his truest identity. It is an identity that shines upon the whole of Creation, in which all beings for the very fact that they exist and because of the “fabric” of which they are made point to a transcendent Principle, to eternal and infinite Life which is given, in a word, to Love. “In him we live and move and have our being”, St Paul said at the Areopagus of Athens (Acts 17: 28). The strongest proof that we are made in the image of the Trinity is this: love alone makes us happy because we live in a relationship, and we live to love and to be loved. Borrowing an analogy from biology, we could say that imprinted upon his “genome”, the human being bears a profound mark of the Trinity, of God as Love.

The Virgin Mary, in her docile humility, became the handmaid of divine Love: she accepted the Father’s will and conceived the Son by the power of the Holy Spirit. In her the Almighty built a temple worthy of him and made her the model and image of the Church, mystery and house of communion for all human beings. May Mary, mirror of the Blessed Trinity, help us to grow in faith in the Trinitarian mystery.
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/angelus/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_ang_20090607_en.html
So At the end, I find that God is himself the ultimate gift. And this gift is what is known as Heaven. So heaven is not a place, but the ‘perfect’ relationship with God; God himself.
Pope Benedict XVI in the Angelus said on February 13, 2011, “Dear friends, perhaps it is not by chance that Jesus’ first great preaching is called the “Sermon on the Mount”! Moses went up Mount Sinai to receive the Law of God and bring it to the Chosen People. Jesus is the Son of God himself who came down from Heaven to lead us to Heaven, to God’s height, on the way of love. Indeed, he himself is this way; all we have to do in order to put into practice God’s will and to enter his Kingdom, eternal life, is to follow him.” vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/angelus/2011/documents/hf_ben-xvi_ang_20110213_en.html

Also, “The Church professes from the very beginning her faith in the “Almighty Father,” creator of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. She does so in the light of the self-revelation of God who “spoke by the prophets and in these last days…by his Son” (Heb 1:1-2). This omnipotent God is also omniscient and omnipresent. Or better, one could say that, as an infinitely perfect spirit, God is simultaneously Omnipotence, Omniscience and Omnipresence. God is first of all present to himself—in his One” vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19850918en.html
 
Dear LB,

Can you, or do you detect a fundamental difference between your approach and Nablaise’s?
 
I reviewed the thread, LB, and I do not find what question of yours here I didn’t answer. Actually, there are tow of mine you didn’t, so I’m kind of at a loss. So I guess you are sincere in not wishing to talk at me.
 
No Tonyrey, in fact the Point of living is to discover what it is to be Real. That might involve knowing to your capacity both who and what you are and what you are able to do as a contributor to and as a cooperator with your fellow humans and the world you live in as you come to perceive the underlying Fact of a Unitary Source of it all. Thai is why it has been said from the beginning to Know Yourself, to follow the great Commandment, and to understand and use the Law of Reciprocity.
 
No Tonyrey, in fact the Point of living is to discover what it is to be Real. That might involve knowing to your capacity both who and what you are and what you are able to do as a contributor to and as a cooperator with your fellow humans and the world you live in as you come to perceive the underlying Fact of a Unitary Source of it all. Thai is why it has been said from the beginning to Know Yourself, to follow the great Commandment, and to understand and use the Law of Reciprocity.
You are changing the subject! My point is that the missionaries are realistic in using pagan customs in a Christian context rather than inflicting European culture on indigenous converts.
 
You are changing the subject! My point is that the missionaries are realistic in using pagan customs in a Christian context rather than inflicting European culture on indigenous converts.
No, not really, as–oh THANKS for the good laugh!–missionaries are perhaps practical and rationalizing in that they appear to act, as did the early Church, and maybe even up to present day, on the principle that the end justifies the means. And that’s how we have voo doo mixed with Christian symbols, etc.
 
You are changing the subject! My point is that the missionaries are realistic in using pagan customs in a Christian context rather than inflicting European culture on indigenous converts.
It’s far easier to pontificate, criticise and condemn from an armchair rather than go out and learn to understand, sympathise with and cater for the needs of deprived people in remote areas of the world. “A good laugh” sums up your attitude perfectly… I can understand why you call yourself “Rankly Frank”!
 
It’s far easier to pontificate, criticise and condemn from an armchair rather than go out and learn to understand, sympathise with and cater for the needs of deprived people in remote areas of the world. “A good laugh” sums up your attitude perfectly… I can understand why you call yourself “Rankly Frank”!
I appreciate your continued good humor and your perceptions. I’m not the Pope. Thank God. And though I have several armchairs, I rarely use them. And I am quite active in our community on several levels and do some charity work nearly every day. And I have worked with indigents in Belize and done a bit on a suicide prevention line. And I’m on here!

The questions we face as humans regarding God and our perceptions of Deity have been my concerns even from early childhood. I went through the Catholic school system through high school and was very devoted and made a point of not only going to confession, but spending conversational time with priests every week regarding matters of faith. That frequency increased in high school. I counted a couple of priest among my dear friends until their deaths some time ago.

I also had a superb spiritual adviser who was consulted by many folks of many religions of every kind, and those included Catholic scholars who had reached one impasse or another. His guests and questioners included people whose names I am sure you would readily recognize.

So I understand where you get your opinion of me. Thank you kindly for your criticism.
 
I appreciate your continued good humor and your perceptions. I’m not the Pope. Thank God. And though I have several armchairs, I rarely use them. And I am quite active in our community on several levels and do some charity work nearly every day. And I have worked with indigents in Belize and done a bit on a suicide prevention line. And I’m on here!

The questions we face as humans regarding God and our perceptions of Deity have been my concerns even from early childhood. I went through the Catholic school system through high school and was very devoted and made a point of not only going to confession, but spending conversational time with priests every week regarding matters of faith. That frequency increased in high school. I counted a couple of priest among my dear friends until their deaths some time ago.

I also had a superb spiritual adviser who was consulted by many folks of many religions of every kind, and those included Catholic scholars who had reached one impasse or another. His guests and questioners included people whose names I am sure you would readily recognize.

So I understand where you get your opinion of me. Thank you kindly for your criticism.
The fact remains that you have sneered at missionaries who devote their lives to helping people, mocking them with your “good laugh” and “perhaps practical and rationalizing in that they appear to act, as did the early Church, and maybe even up to present day, on the principle that the end justifies the means. And that’s how we have voo doo mixed with Christian symbols, etc.” Nothing you write can justify that…

Forum rule 7: Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.

And I would add, respectful of the faith of other Christians…
 
My statements are respectful of the documented history of the Church.
 
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