God creating the universe would mean he is not eternal?

[anon65111186]

The cause exists in eternity, but the result exists in time. To God all things are present, and there is no change, so there will always be the cause within God, who is eternal and has no beginning or end.

 

[JuanFlorencio]

It is possible that Xuanzang was criticising either Islam or Nestorian Christianity, both of which were present in China at the time.

I tend to think he was criticizing the contradictions he found in the traditions of his own culture.

 

[rossum]

The producer is God, and the result simply comes into existence out of nothing.

Two problems here. God is not “the producer” unless and until He has actually produced something. If only God exists, then He is at best a ‘producer-to-be’. God cannot be “creator of the universe” unless there actually is a universe, obviously.

The second problem is your “out of nothing”. You do not start with nothing, you start with God. It is not “out of nothing” but “out of God”, which is a different proposition.

Calling God “creator” immediately makes God dependent on creation. In the absence of creation there can be no creator, just as in the absence of a child there can be no parent.

rossum

 

[anon65111186]

The second problem is your “out of nothing”. You do not start with nothing, you start with God. It is not “out of nothing” but “out of God”, which is a different proposition.

Good point, and when I reread my post before I read yours, I realized it may be taken that way.

Out of nothing in the sense of no pre-existing material. The universe is properly out of God, not out of nothing in the absolute sense.

Calling God “creator” immediately makes God dependent on creation. In the absence of creation there can be no creator, just as in the absence of a child there can be no parent.

God is only creator in relation to creation, right. In the state in which He didn’t create, (again our grammar is past tense) then He is simply God.

God is the producer as God, but not producer until He says “let there be light”.

 

[STT]

The cause exists in eternity, but the result exists in time.

We are talking about horizontal causation instead of vertical causation. The effect is the creation which includes time. So it is wrong to say that the result exists in time. You are mixing two pictures. To avoid the confusion lets stick to God’s framework. We have both cause and effect at the same timeless point. Here we are back to the same question: Why do you need cause if effect is already at the timeless point?

To God all things are present, and there is no change, so there will always be the cause within God, who is eternal and has no beginning or end.

Does your God decide?

 

[anon65111186]

Does your God decide?

Your God? Hold up, are you Catholic?

 

[STT]

Your God? Hold up, are you Catholic?

I am messed up with tons of questions which I cannot find any satisfactory answer for them in any religion on Earth. I am not sure about whether God exist or not. You are Catholic however. Does your God decide?

 

[anon65111186]

Does your God decide?

Decide what? Whatever God wills shall be done. He willed that the universe be created, and it was.

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

You realize, don’t you, that when you move from one thread where an assertion you’ve made is disproven, to another thread (where you make the same assertion), we can still see you, right?

Yes, and you keep following me not paying any attention to what I am say.

That’s because not only have you not proven your claims (just asserted them), but also we’ve provided counter-examples that disprove them.

Simultaneous causation is the most wrong concept has ever created by man kind. Please read previous post for more illustration.

Have you read the link from my post? How would you respond to its examples?

 

[STT]

Decide what? Whatever God wills shall be done. He willed that the universe be created, and it was.

You need to be in state of doubt in order to decide. The state of doubt is a potentiality whereas decision is an state of actuality. Therefore either God cannot decide or He is not pure actual.

 

[STT]

That’s because not only have you not proven your claims (just asserted them), but also we’ve provided counter-examples that disprove them.

Have you read the link from my post? How would you respond to its examples?

I am afraid that I lost the conversation. Do you have any subject in your mind to discuss?

 

[Gorgias]

I am afraid that I lost the conversation. Do you have any subject in your mind to discuss?

Nope. You were just trying to convince us, yet again, that change requires temporal separation. We’ve “been there, done that”, though, so no need to reopen that can of worms. (Just read the link I provided upthread for you, though, please… )

 

[AveOTheotokos]

At what point is someone going to the store?

You see someone walking through the door of a store and ask what they are doing, and they respond, “I’m going to the store.”

You see someone in their car pulling into the store parking lot and ask what they are doing, and they respond, “I’m going to the store.”

You see someone at a traffic light a mile from the store and ask what they are doing, and they respond, “I’m going to the store.”

You see someone getting in their car in their driveway and ask what they are doing, and they respond, “I’m going to the store.”

You see someone getting their coat and keys in their house and ask what they are doing, and they respond, “I’m going to the store.”

You see someone getting dressed and ask what they are doing, and they respond, “I’m going to the store.”

You ask someone what they are doing today and they respond, “I’m going to the store.”

You ask someone what they are doing this week and they respond, “I’m going to the store.”

etc…

At what point are they going to the store?

Now imagine the someone is God, and “going to the store” is creation.

He is eternal, and by a single act of will, wills both Himself and creation. Just because we currently only observe the created universe as having a certain age of existence, it does not mean that creation was not already being willed and enacted.

And who are we to say that there was not creation occurring prior to the creation of our currently observable universe? How can we, with our limited perspective, claim definitively that our created universe is not just a product of a previous creative process, and that process a product of another previous creative process, etc…?

 

[daverod]

According to one doctrine, there is a great, self-existent deity whose substance is real and who is all-pervading, eternal, and the producer of all phenomena.

According to one doctrine, there is a great, self-existent deity whose substance is real and who is all-pervading, eternal, and the producer of all phenomena.

If God created the Universe, that would mean HE cannot be Eternal.

How many Universes are there out there?

Would you be able to verify your answer?