God Delusion is Delusional

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Dawkins is at his best when he speaks of what he knows: evolutionary biology (Read his latest book * The Greatest Show on Earth *; he makes a pretty convincing case). It’s when he strays into other subjects such as theology and philosophy that his arguments are less than pursuasive.

Personally I wouldn’t be too hard on Dawkins. He’s an atheist, but his quarrel is with the fundamentalists who want to teach creationism in public school. He is simply a sincere man who is fighting for what he believes is the truth. If he backed down at this point and conceeded to the creationists… then I would lose respect for him. It’s difficult to condemn a man for obeying his conscience…
Thats true. He sees absolutely no proof of any God so he is going to continue to fight it. And that is his right. I mean when he speaks to a believer in a God they all give the same excuses to why they think hes real. He doesn’t buy it, because none of it is testable science. I mean to him, it was some of the first homosapiens who didn’t know where the came from, so they came up with a God to try to give their life some meaning. Then it spreads down as tradition. A lot of religions are like that, actually. Tradition, because all the ancestors believe it. That doesn’t necessarily make it true.

There will be many more like him in the future considering atheism is rising everyday. I think theres a reason for that. We are not in the stone age anymore, things are coming out, science is improving, facts of history are improving, and everything is coming together bit by bit.

Not everybody is going to trust an ancient book that tries to claim the scientifically impossible.
 
Personally I wouldn’t be too hard on Dawkins. He’s an atheist, but his quarrel is with the fundamentalists who want to teach creationism in public school.
A man who proclaims that religious education is child abuse that and society would be better off without religion or belief in God%between%.does not restrict his attack to creationism…
 
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That people are willing to die for a claim doesn’t tell us anything about whether or not the claim is true. That much should be obvious.
I respectfully disagree. Nearly all of the apostles were martyred for what they witnessed, not in response to someone’s claim. Human nature as well as the apostle’s past behavior would suggest that they could have simply denied Christ and walked away. They did not.
 
That people are willing to die for a claim doesn’t tell us anything about whether or not the claim is true. That much should be obvious.
But it should say something about whether they believed it were true. There’s half of the old quadrilemma knocked out, between whether or not Jesus was what he said He was and between whether the Apostles and Disciples told the truth or were liars.

Surely, there’s a great deal of evidence to show that the Apostles told the truth — it remains to be shown to you that Jesus was who He said he was. If you don’t see, as Lewis did, that Christianity has that queer twist about it that all true things do, then we’ll have to use another argument.
I’m not going to quibble with you over dates – as I’ve said, it wouldn’t change matters in the slightest if we discovered autographed copies of texts by the four evangelists themselves dated the day after the events supposedly happened. Testimony is not sufficient to demonstrate extraordinary and supernatural events, as the alien abduction example very nicely demonstrates.
All personal testimony is invalid? What other evidence could there be for God which would not impugn our choice to love Him?

For good matter, Chesterton takes on your raising the bar for evidence:

Somehow or other the extraordinary idea has arisen that the disbelievers in miracles consider them coldly and fairly, while believers in miracles accept them only in connection with some dogma. The fact is quite the other way. The believers in miracles accept them (rightly or wrongly) because they have evidence for them. The disbelievers in miracles deny them (rightly or wrongly) because they have a doctrine against them.

The open, obvious, democratic thing is to believe an old apple-woman when she bears testimony to a miracle, just as you believe an old apple-woman when she bears testimony to a murder. The plain, popular course is to trust the peasant’s word about the ghost exactly as far as you trust the peasant’s word about the landlord. Being a peasant he will probably have a great deal of healthy agnosticism about both. Still you could fill the British Museum with evidence uttered by the peasant, and given in favour of the ghost.

If it comes to human testimony there is a choking cataract of human testimony in favour of the supernatural. If you reject it, you can only mean one of two things. You reject the peasant’s story about the ghost either because the man is a peasant or because the story is a ghost story. That is, you either deny the main principle of democracy, or you affirm the main principle of materialism–the abstract impossibility of miracle. You have a perfect right to do so; but in that case you are a dogmatist.

It is we Christians who accept all actual evidence–it is you rationalists who refuse actual evidence being constrained to do so by your creed. But I am not constrained by any creed in the matter, and looking impartially into certain miracles of mediaeval and modern times, I have come to the conclusion that they occurred.

If you’ve a dogma against reading quoted excerpts, let me know. I’d be happy to restate Chesterton’s case in my own words.
 
(a) Since truth, goodness, freedom, beauty, joy and love are intangible it is reasonable to believe their origin is also intangible. The fact that they are interdependent supports the conclusion that they are related and converge in one Supreme Being - which is also the most economic al explanation.
Is there any explanation in terms of tangible objects?
…but it goes no way to explaining anything, it just puts it beyond the scope of possible explanation.
It is beyond the scope of **scientific **explanation but that is not the only valid form of explanation.
The “fact” they are independent is anything but - it’s just your opinion.
I did not state they are independent but interdependent.
How exactly is truth dependent on beauty and vice versa, for example?
Truth and beauty are interdependent because - like goodness, freedom, beauty, love and joy - they presuppose persons with rational insight. Truth and beauty are different aspects of the immense value of existence.
And how would you demonstrate this interdependence, such that it could be considered an independent and objective “fact?”
They are all essential conditions of personal fulfilment.
And I see you still haven’t understood Occam’s Razor, and continue to believe that the unnecessary invocation of a supernatural, undetectable, unexplainable, unknowable, unpredictable, unprovable entity somehow makes for a more “economical” explanation than not invoking such an entity.
Your mind is an equally supernatural, undetectable, unexplainable, unknowable, unpredictable and unprovable entity!

Is there a “more economical explanation”?
As Kant observed, it is reasonable to “regard all order in the world as if it had originated in the purpose of a supreme wisdom”. Such a principle enables us to connect the things of the world according to teleleological laws and thus to arrive at their greatest systematical unity".
Kant, like you, is operating from the platform of his own subjective presupposition regarding the existence of God.

Kant’s starting point was not the existence of God but the convergence of teleleological laws, i.e. the purposes which are evident in the universe.
The quotes you’ve provided don’t actually add any explanatory power at all, contrary to what you’ve said. What do you contend that these quotes explain?
The common origin of truth, goodness, freedom, beauty, joy and love. How do you explain them?
The rise of science was based on the belief that the universe is an intelligible system and not an inscrutable enigma. Its success is ample justification of the view that development has not occurred as a result of fortuitous events.
Your second sentence is a non-sequitur of the first one. Whatever the anecdotal rationale behind the start of natural philosophy, there is no aspect of modern scientific endeavour that presupposes a purpose behind the natural world.

Not anecdotal but historical fact when the role of Aristotle - amongst others - is taken into account in the development of science. Belief in a chaotic universe is hardly a sound basis and incentive for scientific investigation. And modern scientific endeavour is hardly an adequate explanation of purpose.
If the success of science is best explained as the ultimate result of fortuitous events it is indeed a non sequitur. But the onus is on you to explain why a multitude of fortuitous events are more adequate and credible than one rational, purposeful Being.
 
First of all, I don’t see any problem with defining God into existence. Deducing things by definition isn’t a fallacy at all. In fact, the most basic proofs you learn in logic start with definitions and prove things by inference.

Either way, that’s not what we’re doing. We actually have a premise which one could affirm or deny. You affirmed it earlier by saying God *could *exist. We can follow a couple of paths:

(1) We can prove the existence of a necessary being, deduce the attributes of it, and see why all call this God.

(2) We can take a hypothetical necessary being, deduce the attributes, see why it would be God, and use the word “God” in the syllogism in place of necessary being (since we would have found an identity).

So, how about instead of engaging in name-calling you deny one of the premises and state why you deny it? All the best.
The problem is that ultimately you’re engaging in circular reasoning. You’re using your posited attributes of a posited entity, to attempt to prove that such an entity exists.

I can similarly assert that the Flying Spaghetti Monster preceded God, and coughed God out one day. God was a star pupil who went on to create the world. But this makes the FSM a necessary being, so bingo! I’ve proved the existence of the FSM.

You claim we can ‘prove’ the existence of a necessary being, but I’ve never seen such a proof that didn’t ultimately depend on unprovable assertion. Hence the primary “proof” becomes hollow and unreliable. Even if one allows that an infinite regress is not a permissible hypothesis (and we have no more reason to reject this hypothesis than that of a just-so back-stop entity), this does not create God, it just creates something. You can chuck the Ontological argument at this, but this is a joke, and didn’t even really satisfy the 12th century intellects at which it was aimed.

Or as you suggest, we could posit a hypothetical necessary being. I’ve done that above, and lo! the FSM has been conjured into existence!
 
Genesis, 1000 B.C. : God says, “Let there be light.”

Carl Sagan in Cosmos, 1980 A.D.

“Ten or twenty billion years ago, something happened – the Big Bang, the event that began our universe…. In that titanic cosmic explosion, the universe began an expansion which has never ceased…. As space stretched, the matter and energy in the universe expanded with it and rapidly cooled. The radiation of the cosmic fireball, which, then as now, filled the universe, moved through the spectrum – from gamma rays to X-rays to ultraviolet light; through the rainbow colors of the visible spectrum; into the infrared and radio regions. The remnants of that fireball, the cosmic background radiation, emanating from all parts of the sky can be detected by radio telescopes today. In the early universe, space was brilliantly illuminated.”
Incidentally, although you presumably are attempting to imply that the Big Bang proves Genesis right, it clearly does nothing of the sort. Any primitive person at the time of OT authorship could have seen that the absence of light is dark, and hypothesise a superstition about where light came from.

What I think is more telling in your comment here, is that it (inadvertently?) highlights the massive superiority of science over superstition in being able to explain our world. Science has explained what (almost certainly) happened at the very start of our Universe, and has explained what happened since (no, not absolutely everything, before you object, but in vastly more robustness and detail than any other discipline). Religious superstition, on the other hand, says, “Erm. God did it.”

Science has proved Genesis abjectly wrong.
 
So when you said you were using “metaphor and hyperbole,” what you meant was that, in fact, you think it is possible that demons take human forms and hang around singles bars waiting to pick up divorced chicks for a romp in the sack.

Thanks for the clarification.
You do know that Judas Iscariot, a man, was called “a devil,” by Jesus, do you not ? Do you pretend not to know why ? A friend of yours betrays you, knowing you are wholly innocent, to death : I am curious, at such an occurence, would the indignation in you to curse him and call him a devil be succesfully suppressed by your disbelief in demons ? I would imagine that your deeper emotions and humanity would trump your rationalized disbelief and you would still curse such a friend as being a true devil, a doer of evil, a destroyer of all things good and worthy, such as simple friendship and the bonds of love and trust it begets, is.

Now you refuse to believe that a demon would seduce a woman in order to debauch her ? I am curious, do not even mere men seduce vulnerable women for no other reason than to debauch them ? And if men are capable of harbouring such wickedness within themselves, and doing such evil arising from their own selfishness and perverted desires, than for what reason do you possibly fancy that the very spirit of evil would not seek to do the same ? To be frank, men are possessed by demons all the time - the spirit of evil, licentiousness, wickedness, etc. First comes the arousal to desire or fancy, usual brought on by some object, which itself is probably not evil but can become evil if used badly, wrongly, etc. Then comes the desire to occupy this object, to have it, even though this is forbidden, and this is always the spirit of pure greed, and the Apostle (Saint Paul) teaches us that all greed is idolatry. The promise of such spirits is always self-gratification, self-indulgence, and is the self-same promise that infected Eve and Adam, wherein they are deceived into believing they can have what is forbidden. This happens, of course, almost surely at the expense of a neighbour, though sometimes purely at our own expense. Then comes the acceptance of that spirit so as to be possessed by it. The man or woman has flirted with the lying promise and reasoned with it or rationalized it in some way. Now they wish to acquire the object of desire, and possess what was lyingly promised to them, wherein the will is now subjected to the spirit for the sake of the (false or lying) promise, then the members of the body are (un)naturally are offered up for and to this spirit for its use, as to effect the (wicked) spirit’s desire.

Man is debauched. Man then seeks to debauch something or someone else, and as if this were all not enough evil, the very debauching of the one and (even the simple attempt) to debauch another (whether person or thing) becomes a scandal, and yet more people are debauched. “O, the tangled webs we weeve !

Have you never seen this ? Have you never seen the “air” of a person change, darken, when you see in your mind’s eye that he, in his mind, is festering or brooding over some dark purpose ? Now the makers of art and those who make films certainly recognize this, even dramatizing it to the point where the ambient light will actually be darkened around a person who is being depicted as plotting some wicked scheme, as being possessed by some evil or unlawful desire. Perhaps it is a desire to steal, to cheat, to take, to have (Cain - that infamous man and first murderer - his name means, literally, “possession,” or “to possess,” as in to want to have or to take) ; regardless, something is festering inside this person, and the longer this festering occurs, the more likely the wrong action will be taken.

That is possession by a demon, and it happens all the time. You might argue, “well, that may not actually be a demon itself,” and I would reply, “well, what difference does that make ?” Tell me the difference between being physically dominated, oppressed, controlled by another person, or voluntarily accepting the very spirit of that person, and doing their will of your own free will and accord ? Which is better from the perspective of the one who wishes to dominate ? To resort to force to get others to do your will or to have them freely choose to do your will voluntarily ? Now God issues us promises that we may do his will, and so evil does likewise issue promises, though these are of course evil and most often lying promises. Now the next time you find yourself in a moral challenge, having to choose between two courses, observe yourself in that state, and see how intimate the desires are, and conflicting they are. It is a very, very deep battle occuring and one we can only call “spiritual,” involving our will, our minds, and our bodies.

This is why we Catholics are strictly taught never to fancy such fallacies, never to flirt with such evil, and certainly never to directly invite such wickedness into our very beings (as in magic), and to resist temptation, following the example of Christ.

Pax,
Tim
 
Science has proved Genesis abjectly wrong.
Bullox 🙂

If you assume that the God who created the universe did not create it with history, then sure, based on such an assumption, Genesis would appear be “abjectly wrong.” But God created man 30 years old or about, according to Tradition. The devil could easily have tricked Adam by pointing this fact out, saying to him, “Adam, how old are you ?” And Adam might reply, “About one year.” And the devil might then say, “Aha! But look, you are certainly at least 30 ! Therefore, God did not make you about one year ago, as certainly if He did then you would not appear 30 years old !” But Adam, I fancy, wasn’t as stupid as some people today, so the devil chose another deception.

If you imagine all the material wealth and truth of and in this universe is itself the source of the universe, then proceeding on a false assumption you will come to incorrect conclusions.

Thankfully, though, human civilization places our age at no more than 6,000 years, for this is the age of man existing in civilization. No one has yet found any evidence of man existing anything like he always has before this. Now, you point out dead bones of man-like creatures or dinosaurs. And I point out that they are all quite dead, and we can hardly imagine them having existed in any meaningful, truly human way. So you see evidence that Geneis is a lie, and I see evidence that God has placed exctinction in our history. You see evidence for disbelief, I see evidence for belief ; namely, that God ensured that even faithless men would have cause to realize their mortality, their ultimate powerlessness, by furnishing our natural histories with so many dead bones so that even those who fancy themselves wise and thus become proud would be humbled and tempered by the certain knowledge that he, like all those dead and dumb animal bones he uncovers, is absolutely mutable and extinguishable. “God is not mocked,” as the Apostle states so plainly. We Christians fear spiritual death, and faithless men fear bodily death - both are made and have cause to fear, so that in this fear they may realize their nature as creatures, and desire something more, something better. So we read Genesis, and find Hope Eternal, and you read dead bones, and find certain death.

Pax,
Tim
 
Is there any explanation in terms of tangible objects?
Yes - electro-chemical reactions in the brain provide at least as adequate an explanation as yours, but without invoking ghosts. As usual, you’re demanding a complete and precise scientific answer, yet offering only a vague and unverifiable supernatural one. You are not able to provide the level of precision you are demanding from me, so your standard argument from ignorance is also an argument from hypocrisy.
It is beyond the scope of scientific explanation but that is not the only valid form of explanation.
It’s the only form of independently verifiable explanation. If you can’t independently verify your explanation, it’s called “guessing.”
I did not state they are independent but interdependent.
Sorry, typo on my part. I meant interdependent. It changes nothing - it’s still just your opinion.
Truth and beauty are interdependent because - like goodness, freedom, beauty, love and joy - they presuppose persons with rational insight. Truth and beauty are different aspects of the immense value of existence.
This is just opinionated waffle, it doesn’t add anything of value at all. Referring to the “immense value of existence” is just vague rhetoric, so I assume you can’t actually answer the question, as usual.
They are all essential conditions of personal fulfilment.
More opinion. No proof. As ever!
Your mind is an equally supernatural, undetectable, unexplainable, unknowable, unpredictable and unprovable entity!
This is just equivocation on your part. And you’re wrong. I can prove my mind exists with far more certainty than you can prove your “Supreme Being” exists. Unless you’re going to dive into more sollipsist rabbit holes again, in which case, I simply can’t be bothered to continue.
Is there a “more economical explanation”?
Given that neither hypothesis can fully explain the processes, origin etc. of these attributes, the more economical explanation is one that doesn’t invoke unnecessary supernatural hocus-pocus.
Kant’s starting point was not the existence of God but the convergence of teleleological laws, i.e. the purposes which are evident in the universe.
Which are? None have been shown to exist, as far as I’m aware. This pseudo-argument, like all your others, is being built on poor foundations.
The common origin of truth, goodness, freedom, beauty, joy and love. How do you explain them?
You seem to be unaware of the meaning of the word “explain.” What you’ve done here is quote someone who (baselessly) states that there is a purpose to the Universe, then simply assert that this “explains” your mystical “common origin.” You haven’t provided anything of substance - just empty rhetoric. I’m not surprised as this is pretty much your Modus Operandi, but it does get frustrating arguing with someone who thinks that “substantiation” means “saying it again in different words.”
Not anecdotal but historical fact when the role of Aristotle - amongst others - is taken into account in the development of science. Belief in a chaotic universe is hardly a sound basis and incentive for scientific investigation. And modern scientific endeavour is hardly an adequate explanation of purpose.
The point, which you have not addressed, is that modern science does NOT presuppose an overall purpose behind the Universe. The science of today is not the same as the natural philosophy of Aristotle’s time.

You’re also conflating “absence of purpose” with “chaos,” more semantic prestidigitation on your part.

You have got one thing right though- modern scientific endeavour is not an adequate explanation of purpose. Nothing is - there is no evidence of purpose, no reason to suppose a purpose… so why would science attempt to answer a question that doesn’t exist other than in the minds of those credulous fools who want to believe in superstitious nonsense?
If the success of science is best explained as the ultimate result of fortuitous events it is indeed a non sequitur. But the onus is on you to explain why a multitude of fortuitous events are more adequate and credible than one rational, purposeful Being.
Well, as I’m sure you know, there’s actually no onus on me to disprove your outrageous claim - the onus is on you to prove it. And there’s certainly no onus on me to explain a statement that you’ve put in my mouth. You’re simply conjuring up a straw man - another of your regular strategies when you can’t actually substantiate a single thing you claim (which happens in every one of your posts, as far as I can see)!
 
I’m not going to quibble with you over dates – as I’ve said, it wouldn’t change matters in the slightest if we discovered autographed copies of texts by the four evangelists themselves dated the day after the events supposedly happened. Testimony is not sufficient to demonstrate extraordinary and supernatural events, as the alien abduction example very nicely demonstrates.

That people are willing to die for a claim doesn’t tell us anything about whether or not the claim is true. That much should be obvious.
You are correct people have died believing in lies throughtout history. However, I know of no one that has willing gone to their death for what they knew to be a lie. So lets look at the 11 of the 12 Apsotles and the Apostles Paul were killed Myrtered in very brutles ways all because they would not say that Jesus did not rise from the dead. Just do a search on death of the Apostles and you can find how they were executed.
Now lets look at this, Your teach claimed to God. The authorities KIlled him for doing so. You start telling people that he has raised from the dead and accended to heaven. the Authooities tell you to quite saying that and you don’t. The authorites can go to the tomb and say here is his body, but wait its not there. The Authorities go to you and say we are going to kill you and start to stone you if you don’t, If it is a lie you A) let them to continue to stone you or B) you say your right the body is over there.

I know of no one that if it is known by them to be a lie picks A. Since we know that they did not pick B we have pretty strong evidence that they saw the resurrected Body of Jesus.

Know one chooses to die for what they know to be a lie.
 
Bullox 🙂

If you assume that the God who created the universe did not create it with history, then sure, based on such an assumption, Genesis would appear be “abjectly wrong.” But God created man 30 years old or about, according to Tradition. The devil could easily have tricked Adam by pointing this fact out, saying to him, “Adam, how old are you ?” And Adam might reply, “About one year.” And the devil might then say, “Aha! But look, you are certainly at least 30 ! Therefore, God did not make you about one year ago, as certainly if He did then you would not appear 30 years old !” But Adam, I fancy, wasn’t as stupid as some people today, so the devil chose another deception.

If you imagine all the material wealth and truth of and in this universe is itself the source of the universe, then proceeding on a false assumption you will come to incorrect conclusions.

Thankfully, though, human civilization places our age at no more than 6,000 years, for this is the age of man existing in civilization. No one has yet found any evidence of man existing anything like he always has before this. Now, you point out dead bones of man-like creatures or dinosaurs. And I point out that they are all quite dead, and we can hardly imagine them having existed in any meaningful, truly human way. So you see evidence that Geneis is a lie, and I see evidence that God has placed exctinction in our history. You see evidence for disbelief, I see evidence for belief ; namely, that God ensured that even faithless men would have cause to realize their mortality, their ultimate powerlessness, by furnishing our natural histories with so many dead bones so that even those who fancy themselves wise and thus become proud would be humbled and tempered by the certain knowledge that he, like all those dead and dumb animal bones he uncovers, is absolutely mutable and extinguishable. “God is not mocked,” as the Apostle states so plainly. We Christians fear spiritual death, and faithless men fear bodily death - both are made and have cause to fear, so that in this fear they may realize their nature as creatures, and desire something more, something better. So we read Genesis, and find Hope Eternal, and you read dead bones, and find certain death.

Pax,
Tim
Sorry, but having read through this and a couple of your previous posts, I feel that it would be impossible to circumvent your wall of blinkered evangelistic conjecture to engage in any kind of meaningful discussion.
 
The problem is that ultimately you’re engaging in circular reasoning. You’re using your posited attributes of a posited entity, to attempt to prove that such an entity exists.

I can similarly assert that the Flying Spaghetti Monster preceded God, and coughed God out one day. God was a star pupil who went on to create the world. But this makes the FSM a necessary being, so bingo! I’ve proved the existence of the FSM.

You claim we can ‘prove’ the existence of a necessary being, but I’ve never seen such a proof that didn’t ultimately depend on unprovable assertion. Hence the primary “proof” becomes hollow and unreliable. Even if one allows that an infinite regress is not a permissible hypothesis (and we have no more reason to reject this hypothesis than that of a just-so back-stop entity), this does not create God, it just creates something. You can chuck the Ontological argument at this, but this is a joke, and didn’t even really satisfy the 12th century intellects at which it was aimed.

Or as you suggest, we could posit a hypothetical necessary being. I’ve done that above, and lo! the FSM has been conjured into existence!
There is a Necessary Being. It is either nature or God. Not nature, therefore God.

If you want to use the characters F-l-y-i-n-g S-p-a-g-h-e-t-t-i M-o-n-s-t-e-r instead of G-o-d, fine. But if you really mean a Flying Spaghetti Monster, then you are just flat out wrong, and this is just another example of atheists not understanding the arguments at all. Such an entity, if it existed (which it doesn’t), would be spatially located, material, finite, contingent, inert, etc. etc. etc. could not be the Necessary Being.
The problem is that ultimately you’re engaging in circular reasoning. You’re using your posited attributes of a posited entity, to attempt to prove that such an entity exists.
Yup. It’s really clear to me that it has been this long, and you have never understood the arguments in the first place.
 
The problem is that ultimately you’re engaging in circular reasoning. You’re using your posited attributes of a posited entity, to attempt to prove that such an entity exists.
Not at all. I’m simply seeking to prove the conclusion that a necessary being exists. After reaching that conclusion, we can further deduce the attributes of the necessary being, and we find that they are the attributes of the classical theistic God. Thus, we find an identity.
I can similarly assert that the Flying Spaghetti Monster preceded God, and coughed God out one day. God was a star pupil who went on to create the world. But this makes the FSM a necessary being, so bingo! I’ve proved the existence of the FSM.
How did you deduce the attributes of a FSM from a necessary being? I’d like to see the logical path. Start from the premise “A necessary being exists.”
You claim we can ‘prove’ the existence of a necessary being, but I’ve never seen such a proof that didn’t ultimately depend on unprovable assertion. Hence the primary “proof” becomes hollow and unreliable. Even if one allows that an infinite regress is not a permissible hypothesis (and we have no more reason to reject this hypothesis than that of a just-so back-stop entity), this does not create God, it just creates something. You can chuck the Ontological argument at this, but this is a joke, and didn’t even really satisfy the 12th century intellects at which it was aimed.
I just showed you a proof, and you’ve still failed to deny a single premise. If you think there is an un-true assertion, say which of the three it is. I don’t rely on an infinite regress argument here at all. The universe could have existed for all eternity for all I care. It has no effect on the proof.

The 12th century philosophers were not satisfied with Anselm’s ontological argument, which is completely different from this one. Saint Anselm’s ontological argument doesn’t even rely on modal axioms. Some medieval philosophers did posit something *somewhat *similar to mine, such as the argument of Bl. John Duns Scotus in his De Primo Principio.

You did notice one correct thing though. At this point in the argument, we only find the existence of a necessary “something”. So we don’t immediately prove that God exists. We can only further deduce the attributes of this being.
Or as you suggest, we could posit a hypothetical necessary being. I’ve done that above, and lo! the FSM has been conjured into existence!
Again, show me the logical path. I can show the logical path from a necessary being to classical theism’s God. I can’t, however, get to a flying wad of spaghetti!

Quite frankly, I wonder whether you actually understood the argument. I don’t mean that in a mean way. Just, if there is anything unclear, allow me to make it more clear.
 
Also, since it’s somewhat my fault for de-railing this thread, I think we can make a relevant point. Notice that Dawkins doesn’t deal with anything like this in his book.
 
Also, since it’s somewhat my fault for de-railing this thread, I think we can make a relevant point. Notice that Dawkins doesn’t deal with anything like this in his book.
Not trying to defend the guy, but he does attempt to write an “anti-Ontological argument” or something like that, but a Middle School level philosophy or logic education can take that down. :rolleyes:
 
There is a Necessary Being. It is either nature or God. Not nature, therefore God.
Or the FSM, as I have demonstrated.

And by the way, simply repeating “there is a necessary being” doesn’t make it so.
If you want to use the characters F-l-y-i-n-g S-p-a-g-h-e-t-t-i M-o-n-s-t-e-r instead of G-o-d, fine. But if you really mean a Flying Spaghetti Monster, then you are just flat out wrong, and this is just another example of atheists not understanding the arguments at all. Such an entity, if it existed (which it doesn’t), would be spatially located, material, finite, contingent, inert, etc. etc. etc. could not be the Necessary Being.
Nope, because I define FSM as being none of those things. Therefore it is the necessary being, therefore it exists.
Yup. It’s really clear to me that it has been this long, and you have never understood the arguments in the first place.
Aha, the good old “You just don’t understand the argument” argument! The last throw of the die for the theist who can’t prove their superstition! Us dumb ol’ atheists, we just don’t have the smarts to understand, not like you clever believers!

However, you’re right, I don’t understand the arguments. But that’s because they are neither sensible nor coherent, rather than for any other reason. They rely on the credulity, the cognitive dissonance, and the suspension of critical analysis by the theists who so direly wants their belief to be true.
 
Aha, the good old “You just don’t understand the argument” argument! The last throw of the die for the theist who can’t prove their superstition! Us dumb ol’ atheists, we just don’t have the smarts to understand, not like you clever believers!

However, you’re right, I don’t understand the arguments. But that’s because they are neither sensible nor coherent, rather than for any other reason. They rely on the credulity, the cognitive dissonance, and the suspension of critical analysis by the theists who so direly wants their belief to be true.
You criticized him for saying you don’t understand the argument, and then in the next paragraph you admit that you don’t understand the argument. Okay. If you don’t have something more reasonable to say next time, I’m going to find something else to do.
 
Or the FSM, as I have demonstrated.

And by the way, simply repeating “there is a necessary being” doesn’t make it so.

Nope, because I define FSM as being none of those things. Therefore it is the necessary being, therefore it exists.

Aha, the good old “You just don’t understand the argument” argument! The last throw of the die for the theist who can’t prove their superstition! Us dumb ol’ atheists, we just don’t have the smarts to understand, not like you clever believers!

However, you’re right, I don’t understand the arguments. But that’s because they are neither sensible nor coherent, rather than for any other reason. They rely on the credulity, the cognitive dissonance, and the suspension of critical analysis by the theists who so direly wants their belief to be true.
Wanstronian, you clearly have some type of emotional agenda for disbelief, because you would either maximally withhold on the ad homenims and insults or want God to exist otherwise. What is this emotional reason?

You call us illogical and jumping ahead, but you don’t even define the terms or the procedure for the experiment yourself.

You say the arguments are not sensible or coherent, but you miserably fail to show why.

You decide that a pseudoreligious being which is criticized by atheists as a strawman sufficiently dismantles the idea of a God but can’t show how this is a necessary being and how its plausibility replaces or removes the existence or need of this necessary being.

Why don’t you even give God a chance? I mean, it looks like you’re just a kicking and screaming deist, not an atheist, to me.
 
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