God does neither roll dice nor play determinism

[thegrons]

Again what might be a dilemma for us humans is no sweat for an omniscient necessary being who has the power of self existence, movement, and created every single sub-sub-sub atomic particle. BTW I didn’t know that they were able to see electrons or are they looking at shadows and impressions or are they coming to these conclusions from abduction (which is a form of induction where one reasons from the effect to the unseen cause as in the cosmological argument)? I was under the impression that it was settled that we will never see an atom much less an electron? In any case again what a physicist is puzzled by is no sweat for The Un-Caused Cause whom we call God. I am surprised what physicists don’t know while theologians get hammered all day long for? Physicists will tell you that the stuff that makes up matter is energy but they cannot tell you what energy is? Sure they can tell you how it behaves and interacts but not what it is? In fact today’s physicist is really a philosopher who is given too much credibility. Yes they posit some of the zanniest theories and the next thing you know they are in the text books with these ideas that try to explain a world without God which is the most illogical thesis yet. O well. Time to go to bed.

Cheers,

Jack

 

[Tomdstone]

In fact today’s physicist is really a philosopher who is given too much credibility. Yes they posit some of the zanniest theories …

Quantum mechanics is perhaps the most successful quantitative theory ever produced. Can you give me even a single one of the thousands of experiments done to test it, which has ever found the basic principles of quantum mechanics to be in error. That does not sound like a zany theory to me. According to the copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, the probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics is not a temporary feature which will eventually be replaced by a deterministic theory, but instead is a renunciation of the classical idea of “causality”.

 

[thegrons]

All of the natural sciences are in flux - there isn’t 100% agreement within the QM community either. We have over-turned Newtonian physics, Einstein’s theories all of science is an inference to the best explanation. I suppose I can do some research to show you some of the crazy theories such as the observance of electrons disapearing and then reappearing in another location and then they jump to the conclusion that these electrons did not transverse space…instead of taking a prudent view of "we don’t know yet’ . But we are digressing from the original thread of free will and determinism and I don’t wish to digress any further. Suffice it to say that even the dust particles in a tornado could be calculated with certainty if one were omniscient and knew every single cause and effect relationship associated with the tornado and I know that there is a logically necessary being who knows this. So again there is no randomness in the universe for God. There might be for a limited human mind but not for God.

 

[Tomdstone]

All of the natural sciences are in flux - there isn’t 100% agreement within the QM community either. We have over-turned Newtonian physics, Einstein’s theories all of science is an inference to the best explanation. I suppose I can do some research to show you some of the crazy theories such as the observance of electrons disapearing and then reappearing in another location and then they jump to the conclusion that these electrons did not transverse space…instead of taking a prudent view of "we don’t know yet’ . But we are digressing from the original thread of free will and determinism and I don’t wish to digress any further. Suffice it to say that even the dust particles in a tornado could be calculated with certainty if one were omniscient and knew every single cause and effect relationship associated with the tornado and I know that there is a logically necessary being who knows this. So again there is no randomness in the universe for God. There might be for a limited human mind but not for God.

A tornado would not be an example of an event which is able to overturn the basic principles of quantum mechanics.

 

[thegrons]

What is your conclusion if there are random electrons? And how would you define random? See given a material world there are a finite limit to the movement of matter so based on this I don’t see any real randomness. But still I would like to hear what you conclude once you establish that there are random particles in the universe. Is it to prove free will? Or is it to prove that God is not omniscient?

 

[Tomdstone]

What is your conclusion if there are random electrons? And how would you define random? See given a material world there are a finite limit to the movement of matter so based on this I don’t see any real randomness. But still I would like to hear what you conclude once you establish that there are random particles in the universe. Is it to prove free will? Or is it to prove that God is not omniscient?

I am not trying to prove anything. I am just relating that fact that according to the copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, the probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics is a renunciation of the classical idea of “causality”.
As to whether or not God is omniscient, Jesus is God and He did not know the day or the hour.

 

[thegrons]

Oh so you appear to be an Open Theist. Yes there are things that we don’t understand about the incarnate Christ. But he also foreknew of Peter’s denial which is no trite instance. For Christ to know of this denial he had to know the hundreds of thousands of free-will actions and thoughts of Peter, the slave girl and everyone around the fire. Christ exhibited His foreknowledge of many things. The Holy Spirit foreknows the battle of Armageddon which this one battle entails knowing millions of trillions of free will events and decisions before they take place.

Again there are no random events in God’s universe and if He knows all the He prophesied I doubt a few loose electrons won’t escape His notice as well. Just because frail humans in their limited perception cannot see how these electrons move doesn’t make them random acts. Again not everything in life is neat and tidy in the physical realm which includes the sub-atomic realm as well. This is no different than considering the toss of a coin as random. Remember if we were omniscient we would know every single cause and effect involved in the toss and know the outcome with certainty so what seems wildly random really isn’t.

Simply put, finite minds cannot track the path of an electron so they have no business positing the view that these electrons transverse space without crossing space. It is really that simple; God will judge men based on a commonsense view of knowledge and expects men to deduce from His creation that He exists. We don’t need to study the movement of electrons that we cannot even see inductively to know there is a God. And as a rule of philosophy, foreknowledge does not a causal relationship. Though God knows your every move you are free to act as you please (within the limits of your humanity). God knows the beginning from the end, yet you are free.

As a final point you should never fear truth, be them truths of science or nature because God is the author of nature and the creator of the universe. Whatever is true points to Him; yet many atheists will peruse many rabbits in an effort to hide from God and deny His existence. Yet they cannot. There are no real atheists just men suppressing the truth about God in their unrighteousness.

Let’s assume that your Copenhagen experiment is true. What now? What does this say about God and free will (the topic of this thread?)

Peace,

Jack

 

[Tomdstone]

Let’s assume that your Copenhagen experiment is true. What now? What does this say about God and free will (the topic of this thread?)

I don’t see where the denial of local realism or the embracing of the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics would have anything to do with the omniscience of God. God can be omniscient and know everything, and still there are some things which are random. To deny such would be like denying free will and saying that since God knows what you are going to do, you are not free.

 

[thegrons]

Having read this response it sounds as though you are a bit contradictory because random events are those whose outcome cannot be predicted yet you maintain that God is still all knowing which is not consistent with randomness. God is all knowing and He doesn’t know merely all that is knowable. If you read my earlier posts about foreknowledge and free will you will see that foreknowledge is not an inconsistent concept with free will. Though all open theists believe that they can know the mind of God and explain how He knows things in human terms which I believe is a great mistake especially since your knowledge as a human is fallacious because of your lack of objectivity as a creature. There isn’t one theory of knowledge that isn’t flawed, yet as humans we have to accept the circularity of knowledge but God doesn’t He doesn’t believe in untruths which is ultimately at the center of our knowledge since human knowledge either begs the question, suffers from an infinite regress or is subject to the problem of the criteria. If you wish to hold an open view of God I would suggest some in depth study of epistemology. But I don’t debate those who hold these views since they hold them in ignorance and dogmatism.

Thanks for your comments but we are starting to go in circles now. If you will concede in your mind that God is a higher being and His ways are not our ways, maybe you can accept the assumption that free will can co-exist with knowledge and I am glad for that because all o your knowledge and my knowledge is circular and inherently flawed. None of us can prove anything without begging the question or getting caught on an infinite regress so the theories of knowledge are most definitely not applicable to God.

Peace I am signing off this thread,

 

[Tomdstone]

Having read this response it sounds as though you are a bit contradictory because random events are those whose outcome cannot be predicted yet you maintain that God is still all knowing which is not consistent with randomness. God is all knowing and He doesn’t know merely all that is knowable. If you read my earlier posts about foreknowledge and free will you will see that foreknowledge is not an inconsistent concept with free will. Though all open theists believe that they can know the mind of God and explain how He knows things in human terms which I believe is a great mistake especially since your knowledge as a human is fallacious because of your lack of objectivity as a creature. There isn’t one theory of knowledge that isn’t flawed, yet as humans we have to accept the circularity of knowledge but God doesn’t He doesn’t believe in untruths which is ultimately at the center of our knowledge since human knowledge either begs the question, suffers from an infinite regress or is subject to the problem of the criteria. If you wish to hold an open view of God I would suggest some in depth study of epistemology. But I don’t debate those who hold these views since they hold them in ignorance and dogmatism.

Thanks for your comments but we are starting to go in circles now. If you will concede in your mind that God is a higher being and His ways are not our ways, maybe you can accept the assumption that free will can co-exist with knowledge and I am glad for that because all o your knowledge and my knowledge is circular and inherently flawed. None of us can prove anything without begging the question or getting caught on an infinite regress so the theories of knowledge are most definitely not applicable to God.

Peace I am signing off this thread,

It depends on how you define random. Random events cannot be predicted by humans and are in violation of local causality, but this doesn’t have anything to do with the knowledge of God.

 

[thegrons]

Well for Pete-sakes we agree! random acts cannot be predicted but logically they can by omniscience. We have no disagreement. electrons, coin tosses et al are all random. But to think there are random events that God doesn’t know is not true. There are lots of things that bedevil physicists such as defining “What is energy?” and “if there are an infinite number of points betweent any two points, how can billiard balls ever collide?” I am not looking for an answer to these since I know that there isn’t an answer, but the point is that people hold up science as the almighty arbiter of truth and yet they cannot tell us what the basic “stuff” of the universe made of?

Thanks for you discussions, I think we have already pushed the limits of this thread.