God does not always seem to fair to me

[Lily_Bernans]

I was refering to your remark about “level of heaven being mormorn consturct”. It is not mormorn construct, it’s biblical.

I’m not sure how we will be “rewarded” in heaven, whether it is related to the “level of heaven” and "our “good works”

Heaven-- first of all-- is not a reward. Rather it is God’s favor.

Would you please provide a biblical reference to “levels” in Heaven? Thank you.

I believe the concept of “levels” in heaven started with Dante’s Divine Comedy. A great work of literature, one of the very greatest, but not biblical authority.

carm.org/different-levels-of-heaven

The first Heaven apparently refers to the atmospheric area of the birds (Hosea 2:18) and clouds (Dan. 7:13). The second Heaven is the area of the stars and planets (Gen. 1:14-18) and some say is also the abode of all supernatural angelic beings. The third Heaven is the dwelling place of the Triune God. Its location is unrevealed. (See Matt. 23:34-37; Luke 10:20; and Rev. 22:2, 20-27).

Those of us who make it to heaven will all reside on the third level.

Christ is call the “Most High” because he is the High Priest. There is no priest above him, and he is who gives all our ministerial priests their authority.

 

[CRATUS]

#1 - Please understand my response is not about you personally but the general situation described with my limited knowledge of it. Please take it with that grain of salt.

Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe it’s not so much pride as doubt or worry about God’s justice.
You call it squandering. That assumes to me that the “better portion” is selfishness. In the end, overdoing earthly pleasures, you find yourself more hopeless than when you begin. It doesn’t fill your heart with joy. There’s no hope that you will hear God say, “Well done, good and faithful servant.” That doesn’t mean you can’t have any pleasure though. God wants us to be happy and enjoy life in the right way.

Personally, I have been really selfish and did something wrong to someone because of it, maybe not even intending to hurt them, but just doing what I wanted to do? In the moment of the selfish act, I may enjoy what I’m doing but when I’d have to look at that person I hurt in the face, Iwould do anything to be able to unring that bell.

And I do understand what you’re saying. I for the long time had such empathy for the older brother in the prodigal son.

I hope you read this Cratus, I worry that you would take it personally when I was just describing about what I think about the situation of what would seem like injustice because God has mercy on the just and the unjust. Or something to that effect.

Not everyone experiences guilt that way. I will say one thing. I may NOT be the most kind or nonjudgmental person, but I am VERY HONEST about my feelings. I feel that is one thing lacking in Christianity. We all hear the stories of saints and how good God is. It sounds magical, but like B.S. too. I am sorry. The stories I like the most are people who are struggling to be good. Do not pretend Christianity is a cake-walk or saints are no longer sinners or disagreeable. As much as I would like to believe in miracles or whatever, I think people NO MATTER how holy they are, are still BASE (they feel envy, jealousy, unjustified anger, angry at God, lust, prideful). As much as people may have disliked Jonah from Jonah and the Whale, THAT IS VERY HUMAN REACTION. It may be wrong, it is honest. Same with the Older Brother in the Prodigal Son reaction. I would react that way too.

 

[pianistclare]

Would you please provide a biblical reference to “levels” in Heaven? Thank you.

I believe the concept of “levels” in heaven started with Dante’s Divine Comedy. A great work of literature, one of the very greatest, but not biblical authority.

carm.org/different-levels-of-heaven

The first Heaven apparently refers to the atmospheric area of the birds (Hosea 2:18) and clouds (Dan. 7:13). The second Heaven is the area of the stars and planets (Gen. 1:14-18) and some say is also the abode of all supernatural angelic beings. The third Heaven is the dwelling place of the Triune God. Its location is unrevealed. (See Matt. 23:34-37; Luke 10:20; and Rev. 22:2, 20-27).

Those of us who make it to heaven will all reside on the third level.

Christ is call the “Most High” because he is the High Priest. There is no priest above him, and he is who gives all our ministerial priests their authority.

 

[casey_cates]

Yeah, again, I understand. I think life is hard for everyone. It’s hard to make heads or tails of it. I just have to trust that God is in His heaven and He knows what He’s doing and all that is above my pay-grade. My job is to do the best I can with being a good person. And TBH, I am not very good at that. After I posted to you, I thought, wow that sounded judgmental, and I told myself, I’m not gonna post anymore because what if I upset Cratus. I’m just no good. I shouldn’t be dispensing any advice. Sorry if I said anything to upset you.

 

[casey_cates]

Not everyone experiences guilt that way. I will say one thing. I may NOT be the most kind or nonjudgmental person, but I am VERY HONEST about my feelings. I feel that is one thing lacking in Christianity. We all hear the stories of saints and how good God is. It sounds magical, but like B.S. too. I am sorry. The stories I like the most are people who are struggling to be good. Do not pretend Christianity is a cake-walk or saints are no longer sinners or disagreeable. As much as I would like to believe in miracles or whatever, I think people NO MATTER how holy they are, are still BASE (they feel envy, jealousy, unjustified anger, angry at God, lust, prideful). As much as people may have disliked Jonah from Jonah and the Whale, THAT IS VERY HUMAN REACTION. It may be wrong, it is honest. Same with the Older Brother in the Prodigal Son reaction. I would react that way too.

Yeah, again, I understand. I think life is hard for everyone. It’s hard to make heads or tails of it. I just have to trust that God is in His heaven and He knows what He’s doing and all that is above my pay-grade. My job is to do the best I can with being a good person. And TBH, I am not very good at that. After I posted to you, I thought, wow that sounded judgmental, and I told myself, I’m not gonna post anymore because what if I upset Cratus. I’m just no good. I shouldn’t be dispensing any advice. Sorry if I said anything to upset you.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Not everyone experiences guilt that way. I will say one thing. I may NOT be the most kind or nonjudgmental person, but I am VERY HONEST about my feelings. I feel that is one thing lacking in Christianity. We all hear the stories of saints and how good God is. It sounds magical, but like B.S. too. I am sorry. The stories I like the most are people who are struggling to be good. Do not pretend Christianity is a cake-walk or saints are no longer sinners or disagreeable. As much as I would like to believe in miracles or whatever, I think people NO MATTER how holy they are, are still BASE (they feel envy, jealousy, unjustified anger, angry at God, lust, prideful). As much as people may have disliked Jonah from Jonah and the Whale, THAT IS VERY HUMAN REACTION. It may be wrong, it is honest. Same with the Older Brother in the Prodigal Son reaction. I would react that way too.

Sometimes God does not seem to be fair. That is true. And I am a devout Catholic who is in love with Christ.

A few years ago, a family friend, a tow-truck driver working at night, just trying to support his family was hit and killed by a drunk driver as he (the two-truck driver) was hooking a car up to his truck. He was a good, honest, Christian man, who would give you the shirt off his back. The drunk driver is a low-life who got eight years in prison. Not much for taking a human life, but it was the maximum the judge could give him. He did say if could have given him life, he would have. Still, it would not have returned Bill to life. It hardly seems fair.

I, too, get upset when I hear my classmates going on and on and on about how wonderful it is to be a Christian and how the Christian life is the most wonderful thing in the world. I hold my tongue, but I think they must not have suffered much. The Christian life is hard, very, very hard. Christianity is no cake walk, you are exactly right. And Christ promised his saints crosses, not sunshine and flowers. So…why am I madly in love with Christ and a devout Catholic?

I guess you have to develop a personal relationship with God to understand the answer to that one, and I didn’t always have a personal relationship with Christ, so the answer eluded me for some years. And believe me, I’ve had my crosses to bear and then some. I’m bearing several right now, but I trust God knows what he’s doing.

When you love Christ more than anything in the world, it becomes an honor and a privilege to help him carry his own cross, and we do that when we bear our crosses with joy and hope for the future. There comes a point in one’s personal relationship with Christ when we care more about consoling him than we care about being consoled ourselves. Isn’t that as it should be? Don’t we always want to take away the suffering of those we love? And Christ suffered, not just on the cross, but in his day-to-day life here on earth as well. He was misunderstood, alone, lonely, betrayed, etc. His human nature will always be united to his divine nature, so he will always feel those hurts and suffer those wounds.

Of course saints feel an inclination to sin! If you ask any saint who the biggest sinner is, they will more than likely name themselves. All we can do is pick ourselves up, vow to do better, go to confession, and then actually do better by loving Christ more. BTW, I consider myself a sinner, and I am far from a saint.

I understand where you’re coming from. If you want to change those feelings, work on developing a personal relationship with Christ. If you don’t want to, I’m not going to try to convince you. It’s your decision, and I would always respect your decision.

 

[fhansen]

Those who seek Him the most, are the most aware of their human failings. Saints are tested the most. God rejoices over the repentance of a sinner. The thief on the cross. We have anytime to repent over our sinners. Who is blessed more the one who sacrifices a lot in this life to follow Christ or the one who simply repents after living the life he wanted? Honestly, nothing would happen if God did not permit it. How much free-will do we actually have?

I am find myself here on Catholic forums. Sure it is my free-will. Some people have never heard of, let alone care or simply pass by this forum. There is always that element of fate.

What I do not understand also, God is upset at our imperfections and sinful tendencies, honestly we could fix it ourselves if we could.

There are good people who stay up all night praying, worrying about God, but God does not love them anymore than those who intentionally neglect, disdain, ignore, refuse God’s grace.

We are given free-will basically to give our lives back to Christ. Which means?

The injustice in man-the offense-is his separation from God, apart from Whom man can do nothing. To the extent that man is in communion with God, He heals our imperfections. But He wont force this relationship upon us-He draws us, wanting us to do our part, as much as we’re willing.

 

[fbl9]

?

In response to the thread title.

God is God and can do as He pleases after all He is God.

We have several examples in scripture of God doing just that. Doing as He pleased. The parable of the labours is a good example.
As for at death repentance, it seems a fairly unlikely event for many especially hardened sinners.
Now if one loved like Christ, we ought to be over joyed that the sinner is counted among those in heaven.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I think some people believe they will repent on their deathbed, but we never know when death is going to come for us. We don’t always have a warning, and once we do die, that window of opportunity to accept God closes (not to sound morbid, but it’s the truth).

Just because there are not levels in heaven does not mean we all merit the same reward. I think those who have lived their lives following Christ, or at least trying to, are rewarded more than those who did repent at death or only upon learning they had a fatal disease, etc.

What I find hardest is loving and forgiving those who have hurt my family. If they’ve hurt me, I have little problem, but my loved ones, I guess I care more about.

 

[James214]

One of my pastors once said that he baptized an elderly man on his death bed, and the man’s family said it wasn’t fair that he would go to heaven the same as a lifelong practicing, faithful devout Christian who had a personal and loving relationship. His response was, no. It’s not fair.

It’s not fair.

It’s not fair that he only knew God’s grace in the last hour of his life. It’s not fair that his family members got to pray for him their entire lives – and this man instead only got to know what it was like to have God’s grace in this life for a very short time.

It’s not fair.

The first will be last and the last will be first. If we’re looking at this as if we’re being cheated out of something, we’re looking at it wrong. It’s a hard teaching.

Jesus does indeed speak of heavenly treasures, and the greatest in the kingdom of heaven, and so on. Yes, there is a hirearchy…the suffering of saints does merit them greater heavenly treasure, and “heavenly treasures” is completely alien in the sense of their temporal equivalents, such that we in our limited understanding get them confused. The concept of indulgences touches on this – the suffering of saints can actually help grant the repentant pardon from punishment. The holiness of our saints is to the benefit of others, not to themselves. Which makes sense – holiness is about how you see others, not how others see you.

It’s not fair. To be Christian means to follow Christ to the cross – to desire to willingly, gladly and lovingly take up our cross and suffer unimaginably for the sake of undeserving people who hate and revile us for doing so – and to love them while we do it. That’s a tough pill to swallow. I know I have problems in my daily life with at times grudgingly behaving as a Christian should only because I either know I’m supposed to, or because maybe I think I’ll get rewarded. I guess it’s a place to start at times. We live in a fallen world and we’re subject to the forces and conditioning of a fallen world. I can only trust that Jesus will help me become more like him and less attached to sin.

It’s not fair. I suppose if it were fair Jesus wouldn’t have been crucified and we wouldn’t have redemption.

[SIGN]Vivat Jesus![/SIGN]

 

[Virga]

I am sorry. The stories I like the most are people who are struggling to be good. That’s exactly what the saints do. They struggle continuously, and have temptations just like anyone else. Do not pretend Christianity is a cake-walk or saints are no longer sinners or disagreeable. Although I’m sure some people might think it’s easy, most people who have earnestly sought to be good Christians would agree with you on that point. As much as I would like to believe in miracles or whatever, I think people NO MATTER how holy they are, are still BASE (they feel envy, jealousy, unjustified anger, angry at God, lust, prideful). True, most people will experience those feelings to some degree during their lives. As much as people may have disliked Jonah from Jonah and the Whale, THAT IS VERY HUMAN REACTION. Yes, and that’s part of the point. Almost everyone in the Bible committed sins that any one of us could commit. And I empathize with Jonah, too. It may be wrong, it is honest. Same with the Older Brother in the Prodigal Son reaction. I would react that way too.

Blue=mine.

I felt the same way about the parable of the Prodigal Son, but like the story of Jonah, it shows that God’s love and mercy is beyond our own.

The sins and temptations written about in the Bible are normal. You might even say it’s human. But the whole idea of being Christian isn’t so that we remain as we “naturally” are. We’re called to a supernatural love, God’s love.

I hope I’m remembering correctly. During a talk I heard, a Benedictine monk was saying that the most often repeated idea in the Bible is, “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways.” [And funnily, he reminded us that God never once said, “I love you.”]**

What God calls us to is very much against our “nature.” Our fallen nature anyway… So yes, it’s hard, and it would be dishonest to say we don’t ever sin.

I agree God wouldn’t be considered fair according to logical human standards, but that’s not a bad thing IMO.

**Edit: Forgot to add that he was talking about Jesus saying that directly.

 

[Sirach2]

I have heard that, while God loves everyone equally, there are certain “levels” of Heaven in which some souls experience a more profound love and/or joy than others, and it is based on how we live our lives. For example, someone who lived a holy earthly life would experience a deeper joy in Heaven than the person who lived an evil life but repented on the death bed. They both experience eternal life in Heaven, but I’m not sure it’s Catholic teaching that everyone is equally happy. So I imagine if this is true, then sure, everyone in Heaven is way happier than is possible on Earth, but it doesn’t mean that everyone is equally happy. I think this is based on the idea that we definitely are rewarded in Heaven according to our good works/how we lived our life on Earth.

I’m happy to say that you are on the right track, and it is expounded here in the Life of St. Teresa of Avila.
2. Still, since our Lord has made me understand how great a difference there is in heaven itself between the fruition of one and that of another, I see clearly enough that here also, when our Lord wills, He gives not by measure; and so I wish that I myself observed no measure in serving His Majesty, and in using my whole life and strength and health therein; and I would not have any fault of mine rob me of the slightest degree of fruition.

1. And so I say that if I were asked which I preferred, to endure all the trials of the world until the end of it, and then receive one slight degree of glory additional, or without any suffering of any kind to enter into glory of a slightly lower degree, I would accept—oh, how willingly!—all those trials for one slight degree of fruition in the contemplation of the greatness of God; for I know that he who understands Him best, loves Him and praises Him best. I do not mean that I should not be satisfied, and consider myself most blessed, to be in heaven, even if I should be in the lowest place; for as I am one who had that place in hell, it would be a great mercy of our Lord to admit me at all; and may it please His Majesty to bring me thither, and take away His eyes from beholding my grievous sins. What I mean is this,—if it were in my power, even if it cost me everything, and our Lord gave me the grace to endure much affliction, I would not through any fault of mine lose one degree of glory. Ah, wretched that I am, who by so many faults had forfeited all!
   I believe St. Therese of Lisieux also spoke about this, but I cannot quote it at this time. I’m remembering an analogy (hers?) that in heaven, each will be filled to capacity and be perfectly full and happy. A thimble is just as full to the brim as a gallon container and neither vessel will be able to receive more than their capacity.

Rev. 22:12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.”

 

[Sirach2]

One significant observation I gain from reflecting on my last post is the sorrow I feel for those who follow non-Catholic evangelists, who teach the following:
Since we are no longer under the Law, but under “grace,” we will not lose our salvation. once we commit our lives to Jesus as our Savior and **believe **in Him.
Jesus has paid the price for our personal sins, past, present, and those we will commit in the future. Therefore, we do not have to worry when we sin, since it is already forgiven.

If they realized what they lose in eternal reward by being negligent and careless in the regard for commission of sins (believing they are already forgiven!), this paragraph and scripture from Revelations would show a much different aspect from what they believe.

 

[Sirach2]

There has been a couple references to the Prodigal Son. I am presently living the parable and perhaps that is the “greater good” (Rom. 8:28) that God is allowing me to undergo, in order to understand Him better.

One of my children is suing me for half of my home, since I had put her name on my Deed in the event of my death, so it would go to her without difficulty of probate or taxation. She decided she wants her "inheritance " NOW.

Naturally, we are not speaking, but in my heart, if she would repent and drop the lawsuit, I would gladly open my arms in forgiveness, like the Prodigal’s Father. But as of now, there is no repentance or evidence of sorrow. She needs to hit bottom, maybe slop with the pigs or something.

Meanwhile, I have revised my will for the older daughter, giving everything to her. My daughter, You are always with me, and All that I have is yours. (Lk. 15:31) Not sure how this will play out, if she will accept the prodigal daughter if and when she repents. Meanwhile, the scripture is apropos, that she is fully partaking of all I have, and is very much loved for her loyalty and devotion to me.

Does anyone reading this believe I owe equal reward to both of them in the end, when the younger has misused my graciousness?

 

[Dorothy]

Can you back that statement up with something?

You are correct to ask that of me.

I honestly do not remember where I read or heard of it. I will try to find it in order to back it up.

As another poster said it is in Scripture as well, but obviously needs clarification?

 

[Sirach2]

You are correct to ask that of me.

I honestly do not remember where I read or heard of it. I will try to find it in order to back it up.

As another poster said it is in Scripture as well, but obviously needs clarification?

Dorothy, aren’t you (or weren’t you) a secular Carmelite? If so, that’s where you read it. St. Teresa.

 

[St_Francis]

I’m happy to say that you are on the right track, and it is expounded here in the Life of St. Teresa of Avila.
2. Still, since our Lord has made me understand how great a difference there is in heaven itself between the fruition of one and that of another, I see clearly enough that here also, when our Lord wills, He gives not by measure; and so I wish that I myself observed no measure in serving His Majesty, and in using my whole life and strength and health therein; and I would not have any fault of mine rob me of the slightest degree of fruition.

1. And so I say that if I were asked which I preferred, to endure all the trials of the world until the end of it, and then receive one slight degree of glory additional, or without any suffering of any kind to enter into glory of a slightly lower degree, I would accept—oh, how willingly!—all those trials for one slight degree of fruition in the contemplation of the greatness of God; for I know that he who understands Him best, loves Him and praises Him best. I do not mean that I should not be satisfied, and consider myself most blessed, to be in heaven, even if I should be in the lowest place; for as I am one who had that place in hell, it would be a great mercy of our Lord to admit me at all; and may it please His Majesty to bring me thither, and take away His eyes from beholding my grievous sins. What I mean is this,—if it were in my power, even if it cost me everything, and our Lord gave me the grace to endure much affliction, I would not through any fault of mine lose one degree of glory. Ah, wretched that I am, who by so many faults had forfeited all!
   I believe St. Therese of Lisieux also spoke about this, but I cannot quote it at this time. I’m remembering an analogy (hers?) that in heaven, each will be filled to capacity and be perfectly full and happy. A thimble is just as full to the brim as a gallon container and neither vessel will be able to receive more than their capacity.

Rev. 22:12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.”

I was thinking about the same analogy! Anyway, for CRATUS, imagine everyone has the same size container, but that it is malleable. I can stretch my container so it will hold more, by doing things which are supernaturally good, or I can crack it so it will hold less, or I can break it so it won’t hold anything at all, and then I have to go to Confession to ask God to fix it for me. (Isn’t it wonderful that no matter how often I break it, He will gladly fix and even stretch it a bit for me!!!)

So He loves us equally and so is always *willing *to do everything *He *can do for the relationship. If the relationship is messed up, it is because of us.

 

[Sirach2]

I was thinking about the same analogy! Anyway, for CRATUS, imagine everyone has the same size container, but that it is malleable. I can stretch my container so it will hold more, by doing things which are supernaturally good, or I can crack it so it will hold less, or I can break it so it won’t hold anything at all, and then I have to go to Confession to ask God to fix it for me. (Isn’t it wonderful that no matter how often I break it, He will gladly fix and even stretch it a bit for me!!!)

**So He loves us equally and so is always *willing ***to do everything *He *can do for the relationship. If the relationship is messed up, it is because of us.

Very nice sharing!

 

[Lily_Bernans]

There has been a couple references to the Prodigal Son. I am presently living the parable and perhaps that is the “greater good” (Rom. 8:28) that God is allowing me to undergo, in order to understand Him better.

One of my children is suing me for half of my home, since I had put her name on my Deed in the event of my death, so it would go to her without difficulty of probate or taxation. She decided she wants her "inheritance " NOW.

Naturally, we are not speaking, but in my heart, if she would repent and drop the lawsuit, I would gladly open my arms in forgiveness, like the Prodigal’s Father. But as of now, there is no repentance or evidence of sorrow. She needs to hit bottom, maybe slop with the pigs or something.

Meanwhile, I have revised my will for the older daughter, giving everything to her. My daughter, You are always with me, and All that I have is yours. (Lk. 15:31) Not sure how this will play out, if she will accept the prodigal daughter if and when she repents. Meanwhile, the scripture is apropos, that she is fully partaking of all I have, and is very much loved for her loyalty and devotion to me.

Does anyone reading this believe I owe equal reward to both of them in the end, when the younger has misused my graciousness?

I think you need to forgive your younger daughter now, just as Jesus on the Cross asked his Father to forgive those who were crucifying him.

That does not mean, of course, that you should give your younger daughter anything she wants. I, personally, believe you owe each of your daughters according to their needs, not according to their love for you. That said, I think you should have opted for a living will, or something that would give your daughter the home with a minimum of fuss and fees, but not UNTIL your death (which I hope is a long way off).

 

[Sirach2]

I think you need to forgive your younger daughter now, just as Jesus on the Cross asked his Father to forgive those who were crucifying him.

It was nice of you to respond to my sharing, Lily. Thanks.
I’d like to comment on your words here, and offer my thinking in light of the parable, which I’ve meditated upon many times.

“But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him.”

My daughter is still a “long way off” and indeed I have already forgiven her in my heart. Does forgiveness mean I should run after her, especially when she is not receptive and is still adamant? The prodigal son’s father did not run after him, but allowed him to hit bottom, which produced the necessary condition for that son to return home. No, he wasn’t sorry for hurting his father, but simply suffering and hungry. (imperfect contrition)
That’s where I am, waiting and praying, knowing that when she returns, I will be completely receptive.

Another true and similar story is that of Joseph, appointed to dispense grain during Egypt’s severe famine. Joseph’s brothers hit bottom due to the famine and it brought them to this country seeking help to survive. Joseph did not run after them while he was Egypt’s overseer, but only when the brothers were in dire circumstances did the meeting between them allow forgiveness to take place. (imperfect contrition)

Two of my favorite scripture passages, since it shows us the great compassion of both the prodigal’s father and Joseph, despite imperfect contrition in the prodigal son and Joseph’s brothers.