God does not want me

[St_Francis]

That is a really consoling way of looking at it St. Francis; are the warts gone ?

No, I still have many warts, a few of the largest are much smaller, thanks to God’s help but at least the fear of doing something about them disappeared! I am not really St Francis, you see; the once-bishop of Geneva is my patron saint.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

The self is evil. True self or false self, same thing. Jesus said I must give up myself, because the self is evil. That’s why he doesn’t want the self (true or false).

The false self is the one Jesus enjoins us to deny, or to “hate” in another context.

The true self is based on our being made in the image of God, and that Jesus said the Holy Spirit would come up as a well of living water from inside us.

The real self is the one that walks in the spirit, and who suffers no condemnation – (Rom 8) – so it is impossible that this person is evil.

If you are trying to get the scripture to say God doesn’t want me, you can do that – but there are other explanations so if you are open to them, they could be useful.

 

[BobCatholic]

Bob, I have a serious question for you. Do you think that God doesn’t love any of us?

Of course he loves everyone else.

Me? Hmmmm…maybe not.

But that’s not what I’m talking about in this thread.

When I said God does not want me, I was using hyperbole. We are to give up the self, because the self is evil. So when one does, they become like Jesus - God only wants Jesus.

We are all called to be Christ like, and to conform ourselves to Him. .

Correct because God wants Christ, not me.

 

[BobCatholic]

That is not Catholic teaching. We may be partakers of the divine nature but do not have a divine nature, so are not the same as Jesus Christ the Son of God: we have only human nature, but Jesus Christ has both human and divine natures and both human and divine wills.

You’re right, my hyperbole in that statement was too far.

The true self is based on our being made in the image of God,

But not in the perfection of God, we are created imperfect. I am imperfect and was created so. Therefore, I was set up to fail.

The real self is the one that walks in the spirit, and who suffers no condemnation – (Rom 8) – so it is impossible that this person is evil.

I didn’t say the person was evil, I said that the self is evil because we must give up the self.

Why does God want us to give up good? That means we are giving up part of him! Therefore, the self is evil because we must give it up.

 

[ccmcmg]

Of course he loves everyone else.

Me? Hmmmm…maybe not.

But that’s not what I’m talking about in this thread.

When I said God does not want me, I was using hyperbole. We are to give up the self, because the self is evil. So when one does, they become like Jesus - God only wants Jesus.

Correct because God wants Christ, not me.

No. God wants us. He already ‘has’/‘is’ Jesus Christ.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

Clearly, I’m using hyperbole, but even with hyperbole, this is a sad realization.

“I must decrease and he must increase” John the Baptist says about Jesus.

Therefore “I too must decrease and he must increase”

If I want to follow Christ, I must deny my very self.

The self is evil. That’s why we must give up ourselves.

God does not want my self. God does not want me.

I’m supposed to stop being myself and be more like Christ.

God wants Jesus. Not me.

Please define what is this “self” that you are talking about.

 

[CWM31]

To the OP, God wants me and he wants all of us, do you not feel his love every day? The peace of mind of knowing that he created me, has nourished me spiritually and physically and provided me with a loving family, helps me know that he cares, he wants us to succeed, I know he wants you to be the best you can be. Count on it. I hope you find his love in your life.

 

[Vico]

You’re right, my hyperbole in that statement was too far.

But not in the perfection of God, we are created imperfect. I am imperfect and was created so. Therefore, I was set up to fail.

I didn’t say the person was evil, I said that the self is evil because we must give up the self.

Why does God want us to give up good? That means we are giving up part of him! Therefore, the self is evil because we must give it up.

Modern Catholic Dictionary:SELF. The person considered as object of its own awareness and subject of its own acts, or, more generally, any being (including God) in relation to its own identity.

SELF-DENIAL. The act or practice of giving up some legitimate satisfaction for the sake of some higher motive.

SELF-LOVE. Inordinate regard for self to the neglect of others and indifference to their needs. In narcissism the attention is centered on the body, especially sexual self-satisfaction.

SELF-CONTROL. The act, power, or habit of having one’s desires under the control of the will, enlightened by right reason and faith.

 

[BobCatholic]

No. God wants us. He already ‘has’/‘is’ Jesus Christ.

If he wants us, why does he tell us to give up ourselves? The self must be evil.

+JMJ+

Please define what is this “self” that you are talking about.

The same one Jesus said to give up. Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

To the OP, God wants me and he wants all of us, do you not feel his love every day? The peace of mind of knowing that he created me, has nourished me spiritually and physically and provided me with a loving family, helps me know that he cares, he wants us to succeed, I know he wants you to be the best you can be. Count on it. I hope you find his love in your life.

I don’t feel his love. I’m not supposed to anyway. I have a self. The self is evil.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

If he wants us, why does he tell us to give up ourselves? The self must be evil.

The same one Jesus said to give up. Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

I don’t feel his love. I’m not supposed to anyway. I have a self. The self is evil.

I told you the truth about the “self” that Jesus means. The “self” that is composed with all the stories and facades with which you deal with others. Like right now you’re showing the part of a person “determined to conclude God hates you specifically” while using a passage that cannot possibly mean you personally – unless you are the only human being of which Jesus speaks. If you are stuck in that story, then Truth may not be enough to set you free – but it can if you let it. Your “false self” is the one that it lying to and through you about this and being Truth, is the act that Jesus is telling you to drop. Worry about whether God loves you is an act of that false self, as Jesus told us not to worry.

He compared us to flowers and birds. He might as well have compared us to a rock. We say a rock is stupid and yet it doesn’t use the brains it doesn’t have to maintain a level of anxiety and discontent with the world or our situation in it. This use of brains is the false self we are trained in, and makes us “less authentic” than those beings or objects that don’t share our brain.

I may be totally wrong, but what if I’m not?

 

[Vico]

If he wants us, why does he tell us to give up ourselves? The self must be evil.

The same one Jesus said to give up. Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

I don’t feel his love. I’m not supposed to anyway. I have a self. The self is evil.

God gives sufficient grace that the self that cooperates with it by free will choice, may remain without sin.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

The same one Jesus said to give up. Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

You have to be more specific. Is this self your “will”, the one that can truly say “I am”? Or is it your, as other people say, your “ego”? Or is it the self as in the whole you, physically, emotional, mentally? Is it the same self mentioned by Jesus when He commands us “Love your neighbor as yourself”?

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

…

A way of Him increasing and us " decreasing " but paradoxically growing at the same time, is to trust Him in our circumstances, eschew false shame, regain healthy pride …

These things can begin somehow, right away.

Be careful not to let your hyperbole run away, and leave room for paradoxes!

 

[BobCatholic]

I told you the truth about the “self” that Jesus means. The “self” that is composed with all the stories and facades with which you deal with others.

Where did Jesus say this is the self?

Like right now you’re showing the part of a person “determined to conclude God hates you specifically”

Not sure if God hates me, but he definitely does not want me.

Worry about whether God loves you is an act of that false self, as Jesus told us not to worry.

I have to worry, I’m the one carrying my cross.

God gives sufficient grace that the self that cooperates with it by free will choice, may remain without sin.

Well, I’m still not without sin, so I haven’t received sufficient grace.

I’m not supposed to feel his love anyway.

 

[BobCatholic]

+JMJ+

You have to be more specific. Is this self your “will”, the one that can truly say “I am”? Or is it your, as other people say, your “ego”? Or is it the self as in the whole you, physically, emotional, mentally? Is it the same self mentioned by Jesus when He commands us “Love your neighbor as yourself”?

I don’t know the answer. All I know is Jesus says we are to give up ourselves. Just as we must give up sin (which is evil) so we must give up ourselves. The self therefore, must be evil.

 

[Vico]

…
Well, I’m still not without sin, so I haven’t received sufficient grace.

I’m not supposed to feel his love anyway.

The dogma of faith of the Church is that God always gives *sufficient *grace. If the person cooperates with it then it is also called efficacious grace.

See Grace: Commentary on the Summa Theologica of St. Thomas, Chapter Five by Rev. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P.

1. THE DOCTRINE OF THE CHURCH ON SUFFICIENT GRACE

Grace is given which is truly yet merely sufficient: “truly” because it really confers the power; “merely” because, through the fault of the will, it fails in its effect, with respect to which it is said to be inefficacious, but sufficient. This doctrine of the Church is formulated against the Predestinationists and later, much more explicitly, against the Jansenists. (Cf. De praedestinianismo, Denz., nos. 316 ff., 320 ff.)

ewtn.com/library/Theology/grace5.htm

 

[BobCatholic]

The dogma of faith of the Church is that God always gives *sufficient *grace. If the person cooperates with it then it is also called efficacious grace.

Yes, but I also need the grace to cooperate.

Think of it this way.

If cooperating with grace is equivalent to running a marathon, and my proverbial legs are broken, I need grace to get my proverbial legs healed. Otherwise, I’ll never see that finish line.

 

[Vico]

Yes, but I also need the grace to cooperate.

Think of it this way.

If cooperating with grace is equivalent to running a marathon, and my proverbial legs are broken, I need grace to get my proverbial legs healed. Otherwise, I’ll never see that finish line.

Sufficient grace if the grace to cooperate. It is the minimum needed for the proverbial legs to be healed. Since they are healed by grace given, one then has to use free will to run to the proverbial finish line.

Even before baptism God gives actual graces. Once baptized there are present the gifts of faith, hope, and charity, which are only lost through a free will choice.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

I don’t know the answer. All I know is Jesus says we are to give up ourselves. Just as we must give up sin (which is evil) so we must give up ourselves. The self therefore, must be evil.

And that is the point: you do not know what you are talking about. You cannot just blindly interpret Jesus’ words the way you want to without any guidance, especially when you are most likely in spiritual desolation.

Read again that Scripture quote, but in context of the surrounding story. When Jesus said that, He had just rebuked Peter for thinking wrong:

31 And he began to teach them that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32 And he said this plainly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him. 33 But turning and seeing his disciples, he rebuked Peter, and said, “Get behind me, Satan! For you are not on the side of God, but of men.”

34 And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 35 For whoever would save his life will lose it; and whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel’s will save it. 36 For what does it profit a man, to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? 37 For what can a man give in return for his life? 38 For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of man also be ashamed, when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.”

Mark 8:31-38

In other words, to “deny yourself” is to deny or abandon how you usually think, the way of thinking that has been influenced by sin. You must stop seeing and thinking like men and start seeing things and thinking as God does. Only then can you see that picking up your cross is not folly, and then you can start following Christ.

This is what Jesus meant when He proclaimed: “The kingdom of God is at hand. Repent and believe the good news!” “Repent” actually is the Greek word metanoia which is nearer to meaning “change your paradigm, the way you think and see things” rather than the usual English meaning of “repent”.

As a matter of fact, this “self is evil” thinking is caused by sin! This is when you can see nothing but your own sins and cannot see the graces from God you are swimming in right now. This kind of thinking is exactly the kind of thinking that you have to abandon, if you want to pick up your cross and follow Jesus.

 

[Lucretius]

Clearly, I’m using hyperbole, but even with hyperbole, this is a sad realization.

“I must decrease and he must increase” John the Baptist says about Jesus.

Therefore “I too must decrease and he must increase”

If I want to follow Christ, I must deny my very self.

The self is evil. That’s why we must give up ourselves.

God does not want my self. God does not want me.

I’m supposed to stop being myself and be more like Christ.

God wants Jesus. Not me.

The self can’t be evil, for God created it, and He created all things good, and man very good (Genesis 1). The problem with our selves in that we are fragmented: that different parts of us wage war against each other (emotion vs rational).

Furthermore, the Father already had the Son: if the Father didn’t love you, but only the Son, He wouldn’t have sent the Son in the first place.

There’s no need for a sad realization. Rather, we should have a silent rejoyce: God sent His only Son!

Christi pax,

Lucretius