God DOES send people to Hell?

[Vico]

Its not that I agree with what I wrote. It just seems that way. I count myself a Catholic, and I try to keep in touch with God and the Church, but I do acknowledge that there are parts of God that seem quite problematic and difficult to accept.

I just feel a bit exasperated that there are people out there who can serenley say God as presented by the Church, makes perfect sense, and at any level is not hard to… take in.

I seem to recall somewhere Tim Staples, a noted Catholic apologist stated that Hell in a funny way is a mercy, since it isn’t nearly the punishment that even one mortal sin deserves. That line of thinking definitley seems to be an interpretation. Why even stop at mortal? According to the protestants, Hell is the just wages of *any * sin, whether mortal or venial.

Also, if that is mercy, I would love to know what the “just punishment is.”

If anyone is familiar with Game of Thrones, this whole “Hell as a mercy” business reminds me somewhat of the sort of things Ramsay Bolton, said to his captive Theon Greyjoy. Ramsay basically captured Theon and tortured him horribly, slowly flaying his fingers before cutting them off, starving him and knocking his teeth out.

He told Theon how merciful he was, that he could easily have skinned Theon’s face off or ripped his tongue out for the things he said. Ramsay showed mercy to Theon by only removing a few toes, when he could easily have removed both feet.

The mercy for all mankind, is in offering healing for the guilty. If the healing is refused, then, go to Hell as chosen.

The secondary (temporal) effects of sins may be reduced through penance and indulgences for those with no guilt: this is mercy for the faithful.

 

[tamedlion]

Here is a question about the first sentence in the statement. If hell is a happier place for the soul of the dammed to end, how is that a punishment???

 

[chimo]

Mmmhmm. For the first part, keep in mind the eternal jail the celestial police send you to is more hideous than we can conceive of. It makes Stalin and Saddam’s prisons seem like a gentle bubble bath. It makes the Hanoi Hilton seem like the actual Hilton.

I don’t believe your second paragraph is supported by scripture or any Church teaching, or Saint’s vision of any kind. One can hope though.

Do you recall the rich man, whose greed, gluttony and selfishness landed him in Hell? He seemed mighty unhappy, and keen to get out, but God made sure he staid where he belonged. He would have loved to have gone to heaven, and been spared the horrid heat, but it was a no-go for him:shrug:

Actually the rich man you were reffering to was not in Hell but in Hades. Jesus was talking about Hades here in that parable and if you want to know about Hades it was the place where the Old Testament people were waiting in until the Lord Jesus would come to bring them out of it. Hades was a temporal place of the Old Testament much like Purgatory is today for the Church after the New Testament. The rich man had concerned for his brothers so he was not in Hell. Eventually this rich man would have entered Heaven because the Hades he was in was only a temporal place. You can check Pope Benedict’s XVI interpretation which says the same thing.

 

[HabemusFrancis]

Look. I think I am basically going through a crisis of faith.

There are parts of God and economy of salvation, that as to me seem puzzling and hard to accept. However, I could never think about abandoning God and the Church, not merely because of Hell, but of the awful consequences for this life.

I have had periods of time where I have withdrawn from God, and gave him little thought.

I was often overcome by the sadness and loneliness of the world, which at times only seemed lessened by communing with God.

Human beings and this life certainly isn’t the be all and end all. I see the effects of original sin daily. Human beings (such as myself) are extraordinary limited, given to hatred, pride,apathy, lust, and lack of compassion.

In the midst of this disheartening, unjust world, the only thing that seems to make much sense is God and the Church, as confusing as those things may be at times.

Please pray for me, that I may say yes to God more in my life, and to be at peace with the Church and her teachings:blush:.

 

[MaryHelp777]

I will read it.I myself narrowly avoided buying a deck of tarot cards, thanks to the advice of several kind people on this forum. In fact I purchased “Dark Night of the Soul” instead! Funny enough, after I purchased it and read, my desire/fascination with tarot dissapeared .My question is, how was Hell her destination if she did not die? God giving her one last mercy?

Further, I seem to recall our Lady of Fatima stating that “sins of the flesh” are the ones most responsible for sending souls to Hell. Out of the Seven deadly sins, the sin of lust is the one that causes most people to be damned? God’s ways are truly mysterious. I used to think the only truly abhorrent “sin of the flesh” was rape and child molestation. I suspect however, Our Lady was not referring to those sins exactly, more likely garden variety fornication, prostitution and adultery.

I wonder why it is that lust is the most Hell bound of sins? It is hard to believe that Saddam Hussein, Jeffrey Dahmer and Hitler share the same fate as “those kind of girls” you meet in dive bars. Yet God’s will be done, not my own.

I will not leave the Church of course, or truly become an atheist. I am well aware that I am a daily source of outrage and irritation to God, but it is only in his infinite mercy that I have not (as far as I know) been sentenced to roast in Hell like a hot kebab:blush:.

Our Lady said it was the cause of most sinners ending up in hell. That means statistically the majority of Souls in hell are there for all sins connected with lust, which includes all sins of the flesh you mentioned.
Being statistically the largest category that the Souls in hell are there for, does not mean it’s the worst mortal sin.

As you said, those who killed millions, that could be a far worse sin,

It’s like saying, "The majority of prisoners are in prison because of theft related offences. Basically meaning, most prisoners are they because they stole.
That does not mean it is the worst offence. Of course there are way worse offences than stealing, injury, murder,.etc…

You seem to be forgetting,
Jesus told St Faustina
“Even my justice is merciful. My justice tries to ensure that those who run away from the arms of my Mercy, when they come across my justice,.should turn and run back to the hands of My Mercy.”

Eg: Someone who fears being separated from God for all eternity, that kind of fear of hell is a holy fear, because you fear being separated from the Creator, it is based on love of God,
So running from justice, we run to the Lord’s Mercy.

Jesus also told St Faustina, “No one understands the mortal grief that the Loss of Souls plunges Me into.”
Our Lady has said in apparitions that the loss of a Soul to hell causes her to weep tears of blood.

God does not want any soul lost. That is why we are all still alive right now, we all are being continually offered a second chance.

 

[chimo]

Look. I think I am basically going through a crisis of faith.

There are parts of God and economy of salvation, that as to me seem puzzling and hard to accept. However, I could never think about abandoning God and the Church, not merely because of Hell, but of the awful consequences for this life.

I have had periods of time where I have withdrawn from God, and gave him little thought.

I was often overcome by the sadness and loneliness of the world, which at times only seemed lessened by communing with God.

Human beings and this life certainly isn’t the be all and end all. I see the effects of original sin daily. Human beings (such as myself) are extraordinary limited, given to hatred, pride,apathy, lust, and lack of compassion.

In the midst of this disheartening, unjust world, the only thing that seems to make much sense is God and the Church, as confusing as those things may be at times.

Please pray for me, that I may say yes to God more in my life, and to be at peace with the Church and her teachings:blush:.

You can’t blame God for what the world does since He wants only good for the world. The problem though as you say are people who do not want to know what is good for them. In truth every one is going through some loneliness. Every one goes through this but not every one tells the truth. If you really interview every one in the world you would probably get the same answer, if they really tell the truth. The ones who are at peace with themselves and with God and each other has had that loneliness filled somehow not entirely but enough to keep them going. I will pray for you. Check out the Divine Mercy messages of Our Lord Jesus to St. Maria Faustina. She went through a lot but found peace, courage and hope to find what she was looking for which the Lord wanted her to find…

 

[HabemusFrancis]

Through all of this I am reminded of a certain Shakespeare quote. There is much speculation that he may have been a recusant Catholic, and after reading this, I am well inclined to believe it. It is the “Mercy” discourse from the Merchant of Venice:

" The quality of mercy is not strain’d,
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath: it is twice blest;
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes:
'Tis mightiest in the mightiest: it becomes
The throned monarch better than his crown;
His sceptre shows the force of temporal power,
The attribute to awe and majesty,
Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings;
But mercy is above this sceptred sway;
It is enthroned in the hearts of kings,
It is an attribute to God himself;
And earthly power doth then show likest God’s
When mercy seasons justice. Therefore…
Though justice be thy plea, consider this,
That, in the course of justice, none of us
Should see salvation: we do pray for mercy;
And that same prayer doth teach us all to render
The deeds of mercy. I have spoke thus much
To mitigate the justice of thy plea;
Which if thou follow, this strict court of Venice
Must needs give sentence 'gainst the merchant there"

It is one of the more beautiful passages of literature out there, IMO

 

[MaryHelp777]

Through all of this I am reminded of a certain Shakespeare quote. There is much speculation that he may have been a recusant Catholic, and after reading this, I am well inclined to believe it. It is the “Mercy” discourse from the Merchant of Venice:

" The quality of mercy is not strain’d,
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath: it is twice blest;
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes:
'Tis mightiest in the mightiest: it becomes
The throned monarch better than his crown;
His sceptre shows the force of temporal power,
The attribute to awe and majesty,
Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings;
But mercy is above this sceptred sway;
It is enthroned in the hearts of kings,
It is an attribute to God himself;
And earthly power doth then show likest God’s
When mercy seasons justice. Therefore…
Though justice be thy plea, consider this,
That, in the course of justice, none of us
Should see salvation: we do pray for mercy;
And that same prayer doth teach us all to render
The deeds of mercy. I have spoke thus much
To mitigate the justice of thy plea;
Which if thou follow, this strict court of Venice
Must needs give sentence 'gainst the merchant there"

It is one of the more beautiful passages of literature out there, IMO

True!
God is merciful!

It.is the bad spirit that is the accuser, who even punishes his own servants even if they did his evil will,

Jesus said “I came to save the Lost.”
“I came to heal the sick, those who are well (the righteous) have no need of a physician.”

It is because of Jesus that every soul on earth has the chance to have their sins forgiven and get into Heaven.
Jesus is God’s rescue plan for all the lost Souls living on earth that they may be saved before they die.

God wants us to be saved.
But we must choose to be saved by living the kind of life that merits Heaven.
It’s an exam we are living.

We must pass the exam,

 

[Vico]

Actually the rich man you were reffering to was not in Hell but in Hades. Jesus was talking about Hades here in that parable and if you want to know about Hades it was the place where the Old Testament people were waiting in until the Lord Jesus would come to bring them out of it. Hades was a temporal place of the Old Testament much like Purgatory is today for the Church after the New Testament. The rich man had concerned for his brothers so he was not in Hell. Eventually this rich man would have entered Heaven because the Hades he was in was only a temporal place. You can check Pope Benedict’s XVI interpretation which says the same thing.

According to the Jewish conceptions of that day, the souls of the dead were gathered into a general tarrying-place the Sheol of the Old Testament literature, and the Hades of the New Testament writings (cf. Luke 16:22; in the Greek 16:23). A local discrimination, however, existed among them, according to their deeds during their mortal life. In the unseen world of the dead the souls of the righteous occupied an abode or compartment of their own which was distinctly separated by a wall or a chasm from the abode or compartment to which the souls of the wicked were consigned. The latter was a place of torments usually spoken of as Gehenna (cf. Matthew 5:29, 30; 18:9; Mark 9:42 sqq. in the Latin Vulgate) — the other, a place of bliss and security known under the names of “Paradise” (cf. Luke 23:43) and “the Bosom of Abraham” (Luke 16:22-23). And it is in harmony with these Jewish conceptions that Our Lord pictured the terrible fate of the selfish Rich Man, and on the contrary, the glorious reward of the patient Lazarus. In the next life Dives found himself in Gehenna, condemned to the most excruciating torments, whereas Lazarus was carried by the angels into “the Bosom of Abraham”, where the righteous dead shared in the repose and felicity of Abraham “the father of the faithful”.

Gigot, F. (1907). The Bosom of Abraham. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. newadvent.org/cathen/01055a.htm

 

[chimo]

According to the Jewish conceptions of that day, the souls of the dead were gathered into a general tarrying-place the Sheol of the Old Testament literature, and the Hades of the New Testament writings (cf. Luke 16:22; in the Greek 16:23). A local discrimination, however, existed among them, according to their deeds during their mortal life. In the unseen world of the dead the souls of the righteous occupied an abode or compartment of their own which was distinctly separated by a wall or a chasm from the abode or compartment to which the souls of the wicked were consigned. The latter was a place of torments usually spoken of as Gehenna (cf. Matthew 5:29, 30; 18:9; Mark 9:42 sqq. in the Latin Vulgate) — the other, a place of bliss and security known under the names of “Paradise” (cf. Luke 23:43) and “the Bosom of Abraham” (Luke 16:22-23). And it is in harmony with these Jewish conceptions that Our Lord pictured the terrible fate of the selfish Rich Man, and on the contrary, the glorious reward of the patient Lazarus. In the next life Dives found himself in Gehenna, condemned to the most excruciating torments, whereas Lazarus was carried by the angels into “the Bosom of Abraham”, where the righteous dead shared in the repose and felicity of Abraham “the father of the faithful”.

Gigot, F. (1907). The Bosom of Abraham. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. newadvent.org/cathen/01055a.htm

Vico try reading Pope Benedict’s XVI interpretation of this parable found in his book Jesus of Nazareth. This rich man was in the intermediate state and not in hell. If he was in hell there would have been no concern whatsoever for his brothers. In hell there is only the gnashing of teeth meaning curses and this rich man showed no signs of cursing. In fact the parable actually is a prefigutation of our Lord Jesus who is the Lazarus that becomes this begger. In the movie El Cid we see Jesus appearing as Lazarus to El Cid when El Cid was banished from the Kingdom of Spain. Jesus appeared as like a leper and when he asked for water El Cid was quick to offer this to Him. The leper Lararus than blessed El Cid because no one was like him in Spain for he gallantly stood against the King of Spain and he can give water to a lowly leper. El Cid was victorious over the terrible onslaught which was coming to Spain at the cost of his own life.

 

[Vico]

Vico try reading Pope Benedict’s XVI interpretation of this parable found in his book Jesus of Nazareth. This rich man was in the intermediate state and not in hell. If he was in hell there would have been no concern whatsoever for his brothers. In hell there is only the gnashing of teeth meaning curses and this rich man showed no signs of cursing. In fact the parable actually is a prefigutation of our Lord Jesus who is the Lazarus that becomes this begger. In the movie El Cid we see Jesus appearing as Lazarus to El Cid when El Cid was banished from the Kingdom of Spain. Jesus appeared as like a leper and when he asked for water El Cid was quick to offer this to Him. The leper Lararus than blessed El Cid because no one was like him in Spain for he gallantly stood against the King of Spain and he can give water to a lowly leper. El Cid was victorious over the terrible onslaught which was coming to Spain at the cost of his own life.

You are referring to page 215 of Jesus of Nazareth, it seems. I have read that and it is only stated that is it Hell not Gehenna where the Rich Man is in the parable. A better resource for this is:

From Eschatology: Death and Eternal Life By Pope Benedict XVI, Joseph Ratzinger, The Catholic University of America Press, Washington D.C., second edition, 1988, p. 124:
The Synoptic tradition preserved two sayings of Jesus on the topic of the “intermediate state.” These are Luke 19-31 and Luke 23, 43, and they were briefly touched on above. So far as the first, the story of Lazarus, is concerned, we may admit that the parables’s doctrinal content lies in its moral, a warning against the dangers of wealth, rather than in the descriptions of Lazarus in Abraham’s bosom and Dives in Hell.

The International Theological Commission said in Some Current Questions In Eschatology (1992) that the intermediate state is that from death to resurrection, and there are two levels.:

Faith in the resurrection introduced an evolution in the way of conceiving of sheol. Sheol was no longer conceived as the common domicile of the dead, but was divided as it were into two floors or levels, of which one was destined for the just and the other for the wicked. The dead remain there up to the last judgment, in which a definitive sentence will be pronounced; but already in these different “floors” they receive a due retribution. This way of conceiving matters appears in Henoch aethiopicus 2240 and is presupposed in Lk 16:19-31.

3.4. A certain intermediate state of this kind is affirmed in the New Testament insofar as an immediate survival after death is taught as a theme quite different from that of the resurrection—a resurrection which in the New Testament is certainly never posited in connection with death. It must also be added that the affirmation of this survival underscores, as a cardinal idea, communion with Christ.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_cti_1990_problemi-attuali-escatologia_en.html

 

[adamhovey1988]

Whenever I hear a priest ( or a parent for that matter) answer my questions about Hell, or talk about it, they always assure me that if people are there, it is only because they do not want heaven, or don’t want to be near God themselves. Hell is where they are “happier.”

I have heard this phrase quite often, “God sends no one to Hell, people send themselves there!”

The more I think about it… the less I am convinced it is true. I think God certainly sends people to Hell, namely those who die in a state of mortal sin (for any number of reasons.)

While I don’t know the mechanism for how God sends people to Hell (whether by opening a huge trapdoor where the sinners fall through, grabbing them and flinging them facefirst into the furnace etc.), I realize the mechanism itself does not matter. God does it, because its God’s will certain people burn forever. There simply seems (to me) no of getting around it.

God willed for Hell to exist. He could simply kill the souls of the impenitent damned, but he chooses not to. The whole “people send themselves there” smacks of the wishy-washy, Post Vatican II pseudo-Catholc teachings that became ever so popular after that council.

We can’t wash God’s hands of Hell, we cannot. We have to give God his credit for sending every soul where it truly belongs.

I feel Catholic youth need to hear this message: God is your only hope. Your not good enough without God, can never be good enough without him. Catholic youth must be taught that they had better not dissapoint or disobey God. They have no idea what will happen to them if they do so.

And Heaven help the Catholic who decides to reject God, or find another god ( or gods) they like better. Those thinking of apostasy should keep in mind, that God will hurt them if they leave Him. There is nowhere they can hide from God when he decides to come for them.

If you have to choose Christ, then logically speaking wouldn’t you have to choose satan?

 

[chimo]

You are referring to page 215 of Jesus of Nazareth, it seems. I have read that and it is only stated that is it Hell not Gehenna where the Rich Man is in the parable. A better resource for this is:

From Eschatology: Death and Eternal Life By Pope Benedict XVI, Joseph Ratzinger, The Catholic University of America Press, Washington D.C., second edition, 1988, p. 124:
The Synoptic tradition preserved two sayings of Jesus on the topic of the “intermediate state.” These are Luke 19-31 and Luke 23, 43, and they were briefly touched on above. So far as the first, the story of Lazarus, is concerned, we may admit that the parables’s doctrinal content lies in its moral, a warning against the dangers of wealth, rather than in the descriptions of Lazarus in Abraham’s bosom and Dives in Hell.

The International Theological Commission said in Some Current Questions In Eschatology (1992) that the intermediate state is that from death to resurrection, and there are two levels.:

Faith in the resurrection introduced an evolution in the way of conceiving of sheol. Sheol was no longer conceived as the common domicile of the dead, but was divided as it were into two floors or levels, of which one was destined for the just and the other for the wicked. The dead remain there up to the last judgment, in which a definitive sentence will be pronounced; but already in these different “floors” they receive a due retribution. This way of conceiving matters appears in Henoch aethiopicus 2240 and is presupposed in Lk 16:19-31.

3.4. A certain intermediate state of this kind is affirmed in the New Testament insofar as an immediate survival after death is taught as a theme quite different from that of the resurrection—a resurrection which in the New Testament is certainly never posited in connection with death. It must also be added that the affirmation of this survival underscores, as a cardinal idea, communion with Christ.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_cti_1990_problemi-attuali-escatologia_en.html

Thank you Vico for this interpretation. I am having trouble understanding the rich man’s concern for his brothers. I can see why riches can blind us to the necessity for the poor and I have no trouble with this but the parable seems to imply with Pope Benedict’s interpretation about signs. Since the rich man wanted a sign perhaps this was in the judgment of our Lord’s telling of the parable the reason why signs will not be able to do its job if the Scriptures had not already pointed it to us. The parable seems to imply that the only sign given for us will be the Lord Jesus. This I can understand. I am just having problems with someone in hell saying the words which this rich man is saying. Of course it is only a parable and in reality people in hell will be cursing and I do not think our Lord will want to reveal those type of words rather He wants to reveal the attitude of this man. Thank you for your clarification. It has helped me a lot.

 

[Protestor]

Its not that I agree with what I wrote. It just seems that way. I count myself a Catholic, and I try to keep in touch with God and the Church, but I do acknowledge that there are parts of God that seem quite problematic and difficult to accept.

Bait and switch.
Can we at least agree with each other in that the use of the word send in “you send yourself to hell” is an improper use of the word send?

If anyone is familiar with Game of Thrones, this whole “Hell as a mercy” business reminds me somewhat of the sort of things Ramsay Bolton, said to his captive Theon Greyjoy. Ramsay basically captured Theon and tortured him horribly, slowly flaying his fingers before cutting them off, starving him and knocking his teeth out. He told Theon how merciful he was, that he could easily have skinned Theon’s face off or ripped his tongue out for the things he said. Ramsay showed mercy to Theon by only removing a few toes, when he could easily have removed both feet.

Again we come to an incorrect use of a word. I know that real Catholics use certain words differently then me, but I don’t think there is a definition that can be construed so that being sent/put to hell is an act of mercy.

 

[Vico]

Thank you Vico for this interpretation. I am having trouble understanding the rich man’s concern for his brothers. I can see why riches can blind us to the necessity for the poor and I have no trouble with this but the parable seems to imply with Pope Benedict’s interpretation about signs. Since the rich man wanted a sign perhaps this was in the judgment of our Lord’s telling of the parable the reason why signs will not be able to do its job if the Scriptures had not already pointed it to us. The parable seems to imply that the only sign given for us will be the Lord Jesus. This I can understand. I am just having problems with someone in hell saying the words which this rich man is saying. Of course it is only a parable and in reality people in hell will be cursing and I do not think our Lord will want to reveal those type of words rather He wants to reveal the attitude of this man. Thank you for your clarification. It has helped me a lot.

I am glad it was helpful. For understanding Dives, consider Matt 5:
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, … 46 For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same? 48 So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.