"God doesn't care"

[prodigalson2011]

Where to begin?

If you’ve been involved in discussion with me here before, you may already know that I just came back to God last year after a long, grueling decade of hedonistic nihilism.
Since I’ve come back, I’ve severely limited contact with old friends. Some of them I haven’t spoken to in over 6 months. So far, only one of them knows about my reversion. This particular friend I have known for over 13 years, and have gotten to know very well. In fact, I’m one of maybe 3 or 4 people who really know him. The thing is, he has had a very rough life. Sexually abused by a sibling, physically abused by one parent and completely neglected by the other (when we were as young as 13, his father would leave him alone at his house for days at a time with nothing but a loaf of bread and a pack of meat in the fridge.) He is also very probably bipolar, amongst other things, and harbors a lot of anger towards the world (he often says his dream is to “push the button.”) He sometimes exhibits borderline sociopathic behavior (alot of flattery and false kindness.) He hung around a lot of older kids and was using drugs and sexually active by 11 years old. Suffice it to say, his psyche and conscience are very fractured. He claims none of it bothers him, and he’s perfectly content, but I know otherwise, and I’m pretty sure he knows he’s not fooling me. I have held him in my arms through a very bad nervous breakdown, and stayed up all night with him just to make sure he didn’t hurt himself. As callous and uncaring as he can appear, there is still a very wounded, hurting human being underneath it all. And my heart aches for him. I want him to be happy! And I know he never has been. He is mired in a life of sin and misery, and it breaks my heart because I have seen the person he could be. And I know so much of it isn’t his fault. Everyone important in his life has hurt him and he trusts no one, especially not God. He doesn’t deny the probability of God, but he completely rejects the possibility that God loves or cares about anybody.
Some of his behaviors are so objectionable that I often think I should just cut off contact with him completely, but I just can’t bring myself to be that one more person who abandoned him. I want to help him, but I know I can’t. I have prayed and asked God to soften his heart during our talks, but to no avail.
Also, he is very intelligent yet very irrational. He has a very simplistic outlook on Christianity and when I try to present the true depth of the faith to him, he dismisses it as the intellectualization of a fairy tale. I’ve asked him repeatedly to just try opening himself up to God, and maybe asking for help, but he refuses. I think he figures he’s gotten this far on his own (almost literally) and he doesn’t need anyone’s help now.

Is there anything else I can do?
How would you approach someone who is so deeply wounded and in denial?
I want to believe that God put me in his life for a reason, but I just feel like all of my efforts are in vain. He knows me to be a very rational person, not prone to hasty judgments or decisions, and I’ve presented to him so many of the reasons for my conversion/reversion: experiential, philosophical, historical, you name it.
I don’t want to give up on him, but I don’t know what else to do, and due to his lifestyle, I can’t be around him very much.
What should I do? Pay the occasional visit and just pray for him?
It seems like when religion is discussed, he becomes somewhat passive aggressive (throwing out alot of words like “childish,” “insane,” etc.) and I don’t want to completely push him away.
If he only knew how many tears I shed for him.

Advice and prayers would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Bix]

I’m not familiar with your previous discussions, but I would like to say, God does care; He always cares.

I haven’t lived the worst life in the world, but definitely haven’t been a saint either. I simply try to improve little by little. I’m also not great with words, but I will make an attempt here.

I don’t believe we ever truly know God’s plan or reasons. Sometimes we can find some of his gifts after years of grief that we have prayed and begged to end, but when the trial is over and we receive the gift and understanding- many of us would go through all the misery again for fear of missing how we grew and what we gained though these times.

Many times, it is just not ours to know, but God always cares.

For some reason that I have yet to realize, God seems to place mainly two types of people in my life - those who love God and project such an immense amount of peace and love of the Lord it is hard to fathom( almost as if they could be angels on earth) and the exact opposite.

The ones in between are lesser examples, but some like your friend.

(Even having met some truly evil people, I can say even with those you can see glimpses of who they could be by certain acts, etc. )

I would suggest if it doesn’t affect your beliefs, relationship with God or place in you in situations where you would be faltering or tempted in some way- to keep in touch with your friend by the occasional visit or call. It may simply not be yours to know how God is using you in this person’s life.

I’ve learned from experience when dealing with some people like your friend - no amount of discussion will change them. It may plant a seed, but we have to be careful not to push and that can be very difficult when dealing with someone we care about or has been hurt like your friend.

I have found that people who Iive and love in the joy of our Lord are contagious. Initially, it might be like avoiding a contagious flu bug but there is just something about it that makes people curious and want to know what the deal is. Like- why is he so bleepity happy?! They become curious and want to find out.

Your role could simply be living a happy transformed life that he has seen from both sides. Some people are only reached when they hit that bottom and begin to think there must be something more - they remember people like you. Just try and live the best, happiest life you can for God and yourself and all else will fall into place at some point. Sometimes, we have to let people go and know we’ve done our work and then hope and pray to see them anew soon.

I will keep you and your friend in my prayers.

 

[Kolbe1917]

I’ll definitely be praying for you and your friend. I want to let you know right now that you are a very, very, good friend,and I totally trust that with the sort of persistent dedication you have for love of your friend, this will all work out fine somehow.

When in a dilemma like this, where we know we have to do something but we just don’t know what, it’s really important to pray for guidance, since God knows our role in his plan better than we do ourselves. He works in mysterious ways as they say… So basically, when you don’t know which way to turn, ask him to 'Take the wheel" and just take it all step by step. Simply aim you every heartbeat at being the best friend you can be, the best person you can be. In every moment you’re around your friend, or whenever you think of him, strive to do the best thing you can do as a Christian, which is primarily, to love. If you find at some point that the best thing you can do to avoid endangering yourself or your friendship is to take a few steps back, then you would have to do it. If it gets to that point, then remember that even though it can seem as if you were abandoning him, you couldn’t be doing anything further from abandonment, because a true friend will always try their hardest to do what’s right–for the benefit of the other person involved, entirely out of concern for that person.

Again, ask the Holy Spirit for guidance to know when and if there is anything you can do for your friend besides pray. I would say to try to stay in contact as far as you could without putting yourself at risk due to his lifestyle. ( I know I have to do this in a somewhat similar situation where I sometimes have to avoid a certain friend’s postings on a particular social networking site for somewhat similar reasons. ) Don’t forget that God has a plan. Also, I would suggest asking Mother Mary to place your friend under her special care. Above all, keep praying.

 

[mandajane]

As someone of the Faith with a very similar background, and a list of mental diagnoses as long as my spine, I’ll throw my two cents in.

First, do not stop talking to him unless he is endangering your faith. What he needs is someone to love him (like a brother) unconditionally. Someone to BE THERE for him.

Next, you need to pray for him, and tell him that you are. I would phrase it like, “Look, I know you don’t put much stock in my religion, but I wanted you to know I’m praying for you, and if you ever need help, let me know.”

Finally, invite him to mass with you. The way I would do this is say, “Hey, I wanted to go grab some breakfast (or dinner if you go to saturday night), but I need to go to mass. Do you want to tag along, and then come eat? My treat.”

Admittedly, I don’t know your friend, but this is the method that got me introduced to the church, and eventually led to my conversion. It took time. It took a long time - but through the steadfast faith, unending kindness, and good example of my best friend, I came home to the Church.

 

[LovePatience]

What do you think the Church will do for him that you think conversion is so important?

In what has been hailed as “a groundbreaking work” Fr. Brett Brannen compiles all the wisdom of a master Vocation Director into one volume. Using powerful and entertaining stories, the book explains in down-to-earth language how to discern a vocation to diocesan priesthood.

The book has received universal praise from bishops and vocation directors: “Fr. Brannen’s book is tremendous—inspirational, imminently practical, and amazingly comprehensive. It is a clearly written ‘how to’ manual filled with solid advice for men discerning the priesthood. A marvelous work of immense value.” - Fr. Len Plazewski, President, National Conference of Diocesan Vocation Directors

In this book on discerning a vocation to the priesthood To Save a Thousand Souls, Fr. Brannen writes that childhood sexual abuse is pretty much the only thing that is a prevention from the priesthood until someone recovers.

In **Why Priests Are Happy: A Study of the Psychological and Spiritual Health of Priests **, In his groundbreaking study, Msgr. Stephen J. Rossetti, the leading American authority on the Catholic priesthood and former director of the Saint Luke Institute, finds that American priests enjoy an extraordinarily high rate of happiness and satisfaction, among the highest of any profession.

Msgr. Stephen J. Rossetti, a psychologist, professor of pastoral studies, and the bestselling author of books for priests, recently conducted the most comprehensive survey of priestly happiness and spiritual lives ever undertaken.

Contrary to popular media portrayals, Rossetti finds that priests, as a group, are very happy men. They like the priesthood and are committed to it. In fact, 92 percent say they are happy in their ministry, among the highest rate of satisfaction of any profession in the United States. This accessible, fascinating study compares priests to the general male population with respect to human intimacy, sexual difficulties, burnout, psychological problems, physical health, and self-care. It identifies fourteen factors that contribute to happiness among priests, examining the contribution of spirituality to their psychological health. Rossetti’s cutting-edge, hopeful work will be a must-read not only for priests, but for anyone interested in the priesthood and the Church.

Rossetti finds that almost every unhappy priest had childhood psychological problems, and so do those who leave the priesthood.

The connection between his soul and the Church is clear but not between resolving the childhood problems and the Church. The route to that is likely much deeper than going to Mass if becoming a priest doesn’t help. If someone had lung cancer, would you pressure them to convert and leave if they didn’t? If you want to help him, perhaps try a more practical way.

 

[prodigalson2011]

What do you think the Church will do for him that you think conversion is so important?

In this book on discerning a vocation to the priesthood To Save a Thousand Souls, Fr. Brannen writes that childhood sexual abuse is pretty much the only thing that is a prevention from the priesthood until someone recovers.

Rossetti finds that almost every unhappy priest had childhood psychological problems, and so do those who leave the priesthood.

The connection between his soul and the Church is clear but not between resolving the childhood problems and the Church. The route to that is likely much deeper than going to Mass if becoming a priest doesn’t help. If someone had lung cancer, would you pressure them to convert and leave if they didn’t? If you want to help him, perhaps try a more practical way.

It’s not so much the Church I expect to do something for him, but God. Is it naive to believe that opening oneself to God could, on its own, at least lead one to WANT to recover, and then seek the necessary means to do so? I am aware that faith isn’t an instant cure-all, but, in my case, it definitely puts a damper on negative patterns of thought and behavior. Do I still have issues that I’m working through? Of course, we all do, but it’s so much easier with God’s grace. I have encouraged him to pursue therapy and medication, but he refuses to do even this much, and the way I see it, as long as he thinks life is pointless and God is some cruel sadist whose relationship to us is little more than a macroscopic version of a child with a magnifying glass over a mound of ants, he’s not going to try to find help in any more practical way. Nihilism is a surefire killer of motivation.
That said, I do appreciate you taking the time to reply, and I would be open to any other practical suggestions you might have.

 

[prodigalson2011]

Also, sorry I haven’t done it yet as it’s been a hectic week, but thank you all so much for your thoughtful replies and prayers.

 

[LovePatience]

Is it naive to believe that opening oneself to God could, on its own, at least lead one to WANT to recover, and then seek the necessary means to do so?

Yes, and no. For example, people think that Christopher Hitchens rejected God due to logical reasons, but his mother also committed suicide and he had strong same-sex orientation. Most saints came from devoutly Christian religious families, and I know of none yet who had a history of abuse although of many who had loved members who died. For example, all of St. Therese’s Liseux’s sisters also became nuns. If he does not have a personal experience of the joy that Christ brings, it will be harder for him to believe that God is love.

Just curious: what does he think about miracles, i.e. Our Lady of Guadalupe, Our Lady of Kibeho, or the Eucharistic of Lanciano? Of the ones that have been scientifically documented? It is hard to see why someone would call them childish or insane. The appeal of justice may be more convincing as well as a recognition that his issues and experience of the world is not the same as the majority of people.

As for medication, why would it be more likely to help him than destroy his brain? And therapy, you might want to find one that has experience and a success rate in the issues that he has before asking him to see one since it comes with stigma and financial expenditure.

 

[prodigalson2011]

Yes, and no. For example, people think that Christopher Hitchens rejected God due to logical reasons, but his mother also committed suicide and he had strong same-sex orientation. Most saints came from devoutly Christian religious families, and I know of none yet who had a history of abuse although of many who had loved members who died. For example, all of St. Therese’s Liseux’s sisters also became nuns. If he does not have a personal experience of the joy that Christ brings, it will be harder for him to believe that God is love.

Just curious: what does he think about miracles, i.e. Our Lady of Guadalupe, Our Lady of Kibeho, or the Eucharistic of Lanciano? Of the ones that have been scientifically documented? It is hard to see why someone would call them childish or insane. The appeal of justice may be more convincing as well as a recognition that his issues and experience of the world is not the same as the majority of people.

As for medication, why would it be more likely to help him than destroy his brain? And therapy, you might want to find one that has experience and a success rate in the issues that he has before asking him to see one since it comes with stigma and financial expenditure.

Hmm… You’ve certainly given me a lot to chew on. I don’t know what it’s like to go through the kind of abuse and neglect he has, but I imagine the scars are some of the deepest one can receive. It honestly makes me wonder why God doesn’t extend a special grace to such people as he. Which then makes me feel guilty for questioning God.

As for the miracles, I haven’t brought them up yet, because he’s an extremely hard person to reason with. He is such a harcore skeptic, he doubts the existence of anything until he sees it. He says he doesn’t even believe in atoms, bacteria, etc. because he’s never personally laid eyes on them. Miracles would be right out the window.

In fact, most any dialogue with him is futile, as his end of the argument consists of ad hominems. Try to discuss of the courage of the apostles and their conviction unto death, and he will rant that they were a bunch of insane desert roaming primitives who would believe anything anyone told them, etc. Bring up the astronomical evidence of the star of Bethlehem, and he’ll say “Ok, so maybe God planned something like that. So? It just tells me some guy was born and died. It doesn’t mean God loves you.”

One of my earliest conversations with him after my conversion was about forgiveness. How, for his own sake, he needed to forgive his family so that he could move on. I told him I knew it was easier said than done and that I couldn’t possibly imagine the pain and anger that he must feel, but that I also know how unhealthy it is for him to let such intense hatred fester for decades. And that, not for their peace, but for his own, he should forgive them and let it go and move on, and realize that he was more than the sum of what had been done to him. Again, I know this is all easier said than done and didn’t really expect him to embrace the idea, I just don’t know what else I, as a friend, can do. I’m not a professional therapist, but he won’t seek one and he gets extremely offended at the suggestion, however kindly presented.

And about the medication, I must admit I’m not terribly familiar with the pros/cons of psychiatric meds.

I know I’m expecting too much for my own small efforts, but no one else is making any towards him, and I really worry that he’s going to continue like this for the rest of his life.

 

[LovePatience]

Hmm… You’ve certainly given me a lot to chew on. I don’t know what it’s like to go through the kind of abuse and neglect he has, but I imagine the scars are some of the deepest one can receive. It honestly makes me wonder why God doesn’t extend a special grace to such people as he. Which then makes me feel guilty for questioning God.

It is true that his life has been worse than many; his judgment will be easier. If you read St. Bridget of Sweden’s Revelations from Christ she gives the example of a girl and her mother who committed relatively identical sins. The girl went to Purgatory while her mother to Hell. We may not live equally on Earth but we are judged fairly. Those Luke 12:48. Yet he who did not know, and who acted in a way that deserves a beating, will be beaten fewer times. So then, of all to whom much has been given, much will be required. And of those to whom much has been entrusted, even more will be asked."

We are living in a world impacted by original sin and the consequences of the Fall.

As for the miracles, I haven’t brought them up yet, because he’s an extremely hard person to reason with. He is such a harcore skeptic, he doubts the existence of anything until he sees it. He says he doesn’t even believe in atoms, bacteria, etc. because he’s never personally laid eyes on them. Miracles would be right out the window.

In fact, most any dialogue with him is futile, as his end of the argument consists of ad hominems. Try to discuss of the courage of the apostles and their conviction unto death, and he will rant that they were a bunch of insane desert roaming primitives who would believe anything anyone told them, etc. Bring up the astronomical evidence of the star of Bethlehem, and he’ll say “Ok, so maybe God planned something like that. So? It just tells me some guy was born and died. It doesn’t mean God loves you.”

They don’t tell you God loves you. We can know that God exists from natural reason… Knowing that God loves you is revealed through divine revelation.

Perhaps you could ask him to define love, and then start from there. What is it? How does he expect to get it?

And about the medication, I must admit I’m not terribly familiar with the pros/cons of psychiatric meds.

What are his problems that he needs meds? The discussion has just been so general thus far that I don’t understand the situation. Psychotrophic medications are powerful substances that have side effects of detiorating/atrophying the brain, but the problems that you are speaking of specifically are related to not believing in God, and few people attend Church regularly.

I know I’m expecting too much for my own small efforts, but no one else is making any towards him, and I really worry that he’s going to continue like this for the rest of his life.

Well, its good to do this, but do this for yourself as well as him. Your goal in life is to become a saint which means love. Yes, I do think that if he could come to a place in his life where he could reach Catholicism, that would give him strength. St. Faustina was given some of the mental sufferings that people whose suffering is more spiritual or emotional than physical go through, so her diary: Divine Mercy in My Soul would be helpful.

 

[LovePatience]

One of my earliest conversations with him after my conversion was about forgiveness. How, for his own sake, he needed to forgive his family so that he could move on. I told him I knew it was easier said than done and that I couldn’t possibly imagine the pain and anger that he must feel, but that I also know how unhealthy it is for him to let such intense hatred fester for decades. And that, not for their peace, but for his own, he should forgive them and let it go and move on, and realize that he was more than the sum of what had been done to him. Again, I know this is all easier said than done and didn’t really expect him to embrace the idea, I just don’t know what else I, as a friend, can do. I’m not a professional therapist, but he won’t seek one and he gets extremely offended at the suggestion, however kindly presented.

Here is a Catholic psychologist’s thoughts: chastitysf.com/q_healing.htm

I was doing an “emotional healing exercise” in my [self-help spiritual healing workbook] today for the first time. . . . The first step was to write a letter and say “I’m angry” to the person who hurt me, write the reasons why, write about my fears, write about how my life has become because of my experience with this person, and write about my sad feelings. The second step was to write as if the person who hurt me was completely healed and was now in heaven standing next to Jesus. I had to write a letter of apology as if I were this person speaking to myself with comforting and loving words. And even though I had to imagine this person as being completely healed, as being pure, as having no more sin, and as being filled with God’s love, I couldn’t help thinking, “He doesn’t mean what he said,” even though the letter was all my imagination. The next step was to write a letter of apology to this person, but I couldn’t bring myself to apologize no matter how many times I re-read that person’s letter of apology (that I wrote) to myself. I felt stubborn and proud, so I stopped. . . . I seem to be having the . . . problem of being unable to forgive and to trust.

Outline of the Answer
• Purified in Heaven
• Forgiveness versus Reconciliation
• Summary

This issue about forgiveness with which you are struggling actually involves two separate concepts.

Purified in Heaven

The first concept is touched upon when you are asked the hypothetical question, “If you met your worst enemy in heaven, could you forgive him?”

Now, most people, in considering their answer, forget the following basic concept: any soul who goes to heaven must, by necessity, have been purified in Purgatory, such that the soul’s love is absolutely pure. There can be no deception here. It’s not like in a court of law where a criminal can fool a judge with false contrition just to escape punishment. Nor is it like an irresponsible father asking his children to forgive him.

God cannot be fooled.

At the time of its judgment, the soul is confronted with the light of absolute truth; any impurity will send the soul into perfectly just punishment, either in hell or in Purgatory, depending on whether or not sins have been repented. In Purgatory, the purification is absolute, and only after such purification can the soul stand in the presence of God’s pure love in heaven.

Therefore, it would not be possible for you to meet your enemy in heaven unless both of you were in a state of pure love; consequently, in heaven, there would be no doubt about the other person’s contrition, and so trust would not be a problem.

Forgiveness versus Reconciliation

The second concept concerns the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation and applies to the time when you and your enemy are still alive.

Forgiveness means that you relinquish all hatred for your enemy. That is, when you are in the place of forgiveness, all desire for revenge is relinquished; when you are in the place of forgiveness, all desire for harm to come to your enemy is relinquished. In essence, you achieve forgiveness when you take the desire for justice out of your own hands and place justice into God’s hands where it truly belongs. Note that in doing this you are trusting in God’s perfect justice, knowing that your enemy will pay for his or her sins as God sees fit.

Let us be careful here to understand a fundamental point about forgiveness: Acknowledging and feeling the emotional hurt that you have suffered is a prerequisite to forgiveness. Hiding your feelings only drives them into the unconscious where they fester in unconscious anger, making forgiveness impossible.

Therefore, only when you have felt your pain, are honest with yourself about it, and have understood it psychologically and spiritually, can you make the conscious decision—that is, as an act of will—to lay down your weapons of revenge and then trust in God’s justice.

Reconciliation adds something extra to your forgiveness; that is, after you have forgiven your enemy, if your enemy apologizes[1] to you and makes penance for the offense, then you will be reconciled to each other. Thus, your forgiveness plus your enemy’s repentance makes it possible for a relationship of trust to be restored between the two of you.

Note here that even if your enemy does not repent, thus preventing any reconciliation, you can still forgive him, and you can still pray for his eventual repentance before he dies.

Summary

Altogether, then, that exercise you have been trying to complete misses the point on both of these concepts. Perhaps, if you rethink things along the lines that I have just explained, you might grasp the real spiritual issue in front of you.

Furthermore, you will then be able to understand the wound that requires your apology to your enemy: your hating him rather than praying for his conversion. [2]

What are specifically his problems that he needs therapy?