God doesn't force Himself on those who reject Him?

[atheistgirl]

A comment by a poster on another thread got me thinking about something.

If God doesn’t force Himself on those that reject Him, or those who simply say there’s not enough evidence to make any kind of belief in Him possible, how can Christians then claim that the good that atheists do, can only be done by the Grace of God

If that is true, then God is indeed forcing Himself on those that do not believe in Him because He is imbuing them with a Grace they neither asked for, nor want.

I do a certain amount of good in my local community. I use the success I’ve had to inspire young girls to go into business. I fund certain things for children who otherwise wouldn’t be able to affort them, because I believe in the importance of building a firm foundation for the future of all children, and I see education as a cornerstone to this.

According to the above, the only reason I am doing any of this, is because of the Grace from a God I do not believe exists

How can that be?

And how can this God then ever condemn me for not believing in Him, when it doesn’t make any difference anyhow, He’ll just go right on and make me do good and fill me with Grace, whether I want it or not

I don’t believe in the devil either. But to be fair, that must mean even though I don’t believe in him either, anything not so good that I do (I’m not perfect ) must be influenced by him, even though I don’t care for him, and don’t believe he exists!

My body and mind is just like a football field to these guys, playing me off one against the other

I don’t get it.

Sarah x

 

[John_Carlton]

I’ll take a crack at this. You could reject that Grace, if you so chose. You could stop doing good things. God has not forced you to be a good person. Blessed be that you are, of course, but nevertheless, if you wanted, you could do as you pleased. Likewise, if you did choose the evil instead of the good, that would be your choice. I’ve thought a lot about this, actually, I was an Atheist. I won’t bore you with the details. But with regards to Grace, I’ve often wondered why I had any at all, in that my being Christian is a fairly recent development in my life and I was a blasphemer for far longer. I think, then, that Grace is not so much an irresistable force so much an oppurtunity. How many of these girls you work with would you say disagree with your paradigm, whether they know it or not? Will you only help a fellow Atheist, or would that perhaps defeat your purposes?

The Catholic understanding of the will of God as it relates to concepts such as Grace and predestination, and, don’t be insulted, but I think you might be mixing the two to a certain degree… are complicated. I would suggest, if you really want to flesh out some good answers, that you take to the books. Professor Peter Kreeft speaks about predestination, and Grace, and their Catholic understandings. He actually has seminars available for download, I apologise that I don’t know their actual links, but if you were to go to amazon you could easily find his books. Of course, I’m sure the other good posters here will have other resources for you as well. Anyway,

God bless

 

[Sair]

I have been thinking about this a bit also, and I rather suspect that difference in attitude cuts both ways.

Whilst Christians are busy assuming that we unbelievers do good because God has granted us his grace (or perhaps, in my case, because I was baptised Catholic), we, in our turn, often assume that good people do good because of natural inclination, even if they like to think of it as some external force that allows them to “transcend” their “fallen” human nature.

The basic difference seems to be that religious believers tend to assume that humans are, by nature, unable to do good or act altruistically without a nudge from on high, whilst unbelievers consider that the entire range of human motivation and action is a matter of natural variation in biology, upbringing, education and life experiences.

 

[inocente]

A comment by a poster on another thread got me thinking about something.

Did they give a chapter and verse as the origin for this belief? I’ve never heard of it, it sounds completely batty, out there with the fairies.

As you say it denies free will, and I don’t get how it would fit with the Catholic belief in justification by faith + works if God manipulates us into the works.

 

[tonyrey]

I have been thinking about this a bit also, and I rather suspect that difference in attitude cuts both ways.

Whilst Christians are busy assuming that we unbelievers do good because God has granted us his grace (or perhaps, in my case, because I was baptised Catholic), we, in our turn, often assume that good people do good because of natural inclination, even if they like to think of it as some external force that allows them to “transcend” their “fallen” human nature.

If we do things solely due to natural inclination we are no better than those who do evil solely due to natural inclination.

The basic difference seems to be that religious believers tend to assume that humans are, by nature, unable to do good or act altruistically without a nudge from on high, whilst unbelievers consider that the entire range of human motivation and action is a matter of natural variation in biology, upbringing, education and life experiences.

It is not a “nudge” but a reasonable response to our willingness to admit we are not self-sufficient, cannot overcome temptations entirely by ourselves and need a source of assistance and inspiration.The do-your-own-thing and go-it-alone policy is doomed to failure and eventual frustration. In other words if intellectual pride becomes deeply ingrained it leads to cynicism and moral decadence.

If the entire range of human motivation and action is a matter of natural variation in biology, upbringing, education and life experiences there is certainly no scope whatsoever for individual choice or responsibility. We are no more than impotent cogs in an inscrutable and impervious machine, helpless spectators of our own choices and decisions, utterly powerless to alter the course of events or even to control our thoughts or feelings - which amounts to a living death…

 

[JRKH]

Atheist Girl,

I don’t know if this will be of any help…but I tend to think in “analogies” (though never perfect ones…)

Suppose you are in a large banquet hall with a huge buffet of food at one end that you are more than welcome to go and help yourself, plus servers who are going around and trying to see that everyone gets food.
However - even though you are there, and the food exists and is available you are not forced to eat it - yet of course you are naturally drawn towards eating it.

To me, grace is like this. It is something that God makes available to all out of His great Love. You may make use of it any time you wish. Surely it is not God “Forcing” himself on you, but just as surely God hopes that by coming to understand the many good things available in and through His grace, you will perhaps come to know Him better and accept Him and Love Him…

Peace
James

 

[tonyrey]

If God doesn’t force Himself on those that reject Him, or those who simply say there’s not enough evidence to make any kind of belief in Him possible, how can Christians then claim that the good that atheists do, can only be done by the Grace of God
If that is true, then God is indeed forcing Himself on those that do not believe in Him because He is imbuing them with a Grace they neither asked for, nor want.

 

[Gods_Peace]

A comment by a poster on another thread got me thinking about something.

If God doesn’t force Himself on those that reject Him, or those who simply say there’s not enough evidence to make any kind of belief in Him possible, *(1)*how can Christians then claim that the good that atheists do, can only be done by the Grace of God

If that is true, then God is indeed forcing Himself on those that do not believe in Him because He is imbuing them with a Grace they neither asked for, nor want.

I do a certain amount of good in my local community. I use the success I’ve had to inspire young girls to go into business. I fund certain things for children who otherwise wouldn’t be able to affort them, because I believe in the importance of building a firm foundation for the future of all children, and I see education as a cornerstone to this.

According to the above, the only reason I am doing any of this, is because of the Grace from a God I do not believe exists

How can that be?

And how can this God then ever condemn me for not believing in Him, when it doesn’t make any difference anyhow, He’ll just go right on and make me do good and fill me with Grace, whether I want it or not

I don’t believe in the devil either. But to be fair, that must mean even though I don’t believe in him either, anything not so good that I do (I’m not perfect ) must be influenced by him, even though I don’t care for him, and don’t believe he exists!

My body and mind is just like a football field to these guys, playing me off one against the other

I don’t get it.

Sarah x

[BIBLEDRB]James 1:17[/BIBLEDRB]

By the way, narrow down you questions if you want them answered.

 

[tonyrey]

Atheist Girl,

I don’t know if this will be of any help…but I tend to think in “analogies” (though never perfect ones…)

Suppose you are in a large banquet hall with a huge buffet of food at one end that you are more than welcome to go and help yourself, plus servers who are going around and trying to see that everyone gets food.
However - even though you are there, and the food exists and is available you are not forced to eat it - yet of course you are naturally drawn towards eating it.

To me, grace is like this. It is something that God makes available to all out of His great Love. You may make use of it any time you wish. Surely it is not God “Forcing” himself on you, but just as surely God hopes that by coming to understand the many good things available in and through His grace, you will perhaps come to know Him better and accept Him and Love Him.

Great minds think alike! I hadn’t read your post when I submitted mine.

 

[atheistgirl]

Therefore it doesn’t make sense to describe anything as “good”…

Sheer nonsense.

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

Surely it is not God “Forcing” himself on you, but just as surely God hopes that by coming to understand the many good things available in and through His grace, you will perhaps come to know Him better and accept Him and Love Him…

Ok that’s good.

So your position is that the good stuff I do has nothing to do with God, or God’s Grace? Is that right?

Sarah x

 

[tonyrey]

Sheer nonsense.

In an amoral universe nothing is “good” or “evil” because morality is a human invention.

 

[atheistgirl]

Non sequitur. It is not the only reason. There is such a thing as co-operation - even if one is unaware of the fact. Anonymous benefactors exist in spite of cynics.

Hey, I’m not the one that claimed we can only do good because of God. That was one of your fellow Catholics here.

How would I be cooperating with this Grace, when I do not recognize or believe in the originator of this grace?

If I am cooperating with this Grace, it is most definately against my will, for several reasons, the most important being I do not cooperate with those I do not know and understand who claim to be omnipotent! Who knows who I might be cooperating with!!! So any cooperation on my part is not free and I certainly want no part of it.

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

In an amoral universe nothing is “good” or “evil” because morality is a human invention.

Yep, it is, and through universal agreement and cooperation and empathy we say and know what is right and what is wrong.

Simple.

Can’t see why you just don’t get it.

Murdering whole tribes, including women, and ripping their children from their womb, for no other justification, other than Divine Command Theory, is moral???

Please!

Sarah x

 

[Armor_of_Light]

Ok that’s good.

So your position is that the good stuff I do has nothing to do with God, or God’s Grace? Is that right?

Sarah x

My opinion (and I think it is church teaching…) is:
Your good IS by the grace of God, but you don’t get ‘eternal credit’ for it unless you do good with God in mind.

 

[tonyrey]

Hey, I’m not the one that claimed we can only do good because of God. That was one of your fellow Catholics here.

How would I be cooperating with this Grace, when I do not recognize or believe in the originator of this grace?
If I am cooperating with this Grace, it is most definately against my will, for several reasons, the most important being I do not cooperate with those I do not know and understand who claim to be omnipotent! Who knows who I might be cooperating with!!! So any cooperation on my part is not free and I certainly want no part of it.

To refuse to cooperate with a benefactor when you are in difficulty and likely to fail is a symptom of pride and folly.

 

[atheistgirl]

How many of these girls you work with would you say disagree with your paradigm, whether they know it or not? Will you only help a fellow Atheist, or would that perhaps defeat your purposes?

Lol - just about all of them would - they’re very church based girls

No, I don’t care about their background, religion, or color, it happens from where we are most are Christian, Black and poor.

Sarah x

 

[prodigalson2011]

Ok that’s good.

So your position is that the good stuff I do has nothing to do with God, or God’s Grace? Is that right?

Sarah x

I think you’re taking the idea too literally. Don’t think of it as God “nudging the ball” mid-game; that is to say don’t think He’s actively influencing your every action. The good you do comes from God in that our very sense of right and wrong was given to you by Him, along with the soul that desires to do right. Without those gifts of intellect and spirit, you wouldn’t know good from evil and couldn’t act towards either end.

That said, I have found in my experience that cooperating with grace can lead one to take greater moral courage and do good things one might not do alone. In the wilderness of life, we’re not all Thoreaus.

 

[atheistgirl]

My opinion (and I think it is church teaching…) is:
Your good IS by the grace of God, but you don’t get ‘eternal credit’ for it unless you do good with God in mind.

Well in that case, that is an outrage.

Seriously an outrage.

The good I do can only be done because of God’s grace, but I get no credit in heaven for it because I don’t have Him in mind, since I don’t accept He exists

So even though I do not think a god of any kind exists, the Christian position is that even with that in mind, when I do good, that’s God’s Grace.

But I get no credit, so I am being USED by God, to do this good, yet I get no reward like a Christian would

Hmmmm, so if God is using me without my sayso, He is forcing Himself on me! Using me!

So in that case, how in the world am I free to reject Him, when he’ll just go right along and use me any ol how whenever he wants

That does not seem right to me.

Sarah x

 

[prodigalson2011]

**

Well in that case, that is an outrage.

Seriously an outrage.

The good I do can only be done because of God’s grace, but I get no credit in heaven for it because I don’t have Him in mind, since I don’t accept He exists

So even though I do not think a god of any kind exists, the Christian position is that even with that in mind, when I do good, that’s God’s Grace.

But I get no credit, so I am being USED by God, to do this good, yet I get no reward like a Christian would

Hmmmm, so if God is using me without my sayso, He is forcing Himself on me! Using me!

So in that case, how in the world am I free to reject Him, when he’ll just go right along and use me any ol how whenever he wants

That does not seem right to me.

Sarah x

You must understand that from the Catholic perspective, not even the most holy act of the most devout saint merits anything by itself. Our transgressions against an infinite goodness merit an infinite consequence, I.e. an infinite separation from that goodness. This is why I’m always dumbfounded by people who say Christians think they’re better than everyone just because they’re Christian, as well as those Christians who think they are, when one of the most outstanding points of Scripture is that all men are wicked. “There is no one that is good. Not one.” “Why do you call me good? No one is good but your Father in heaven.”

Think of it this way: if you, as a child, were to cuss your parents and run away from home, but subsequently sneak around their house doing nice things like yard work, etc. for them, yet never facing them and apologizing for your past offenses and asking to be welcomed back home, how can reconciliation ever take place? It is not that your good works are of no merit; they are simply not the whole, or even most important part, of the overall picture. Your apology (repentance) and openness to repairing the damaged relationship is essential; your kind acts are complementary.