God doesn't force Himself on those who reject Him?

[atheistgirl]

To refuse to cooperate with a benefactor when you are in difficulty and likely to fail is a symptom of pride and folly.

Completely wrong.

Some of my products can be and are used by abortion clinics.

I do not supply them and do not want my name, business, or products associated with the abortion industry.

I could increase my turnover right now, today, if I swollowed my ‘‘pride and folly’’ as you call it, and targeted every abortion clinic in the US and Europe.

I won’t do that.

Along with other businesses, I fund an annual awards scheme.

Do you think, if some of the businesses were abortion based, or neoNazi supporters, or were known to fund terrorism, the recipients would be right to display ‘‘pride and folly’’ and reject the awards and refuse to attend?

Sarah x

 

[prodigalson2011]

Completely wrong.

Some of my products can be and are used by abortion clinics.

I do not supply them and do not want my name, business, or products associated with the abortion industry.

I could increase my turnover right now, today, if I swollowed my ‘‘pride and folly’’ as you call it, and targeted every abortion clinic in the US and Europe.

I won’t do that.

Along with other businesses, I fund an annual awards scheme.

Do you think, if some of the businesses were abortion based, or neoNazi supporters, or were known to fund terrorism, the recipients would be right to display ‘‘pride and folly’’ and reject the awards and refuse to attend?

Sarah x

This analogy fails on the skewed definition of “beneficent.” I gather from what you’ve said that, even as an atheist, you would agree that some sense of “spiritual”, or at least moral, well being is more important than monetary gain. That being the case, the course if action you posit would not be beneficial to your well being. If you were not opposed to abortion, it would indeed be folly to reject their business. There is a difference between pride and principle.

 

[tonyrey]

To refuse to cooperate with a benefactor when you are in difficulty and likely to fail is a symptom of pride and folly.

Your policy is admirable - and in stark contrast to the unscrupulous greed of other businesses - but the issue is co-operation with a benefactor rather than a malefactor!

 

[tonyrey]

This analogy fails on the skewed definition of “beneficent.” I gather from what you’ve said that, even as an atheist, you would agree that some sense of “spiritual”, or at least moral, well being is more important than monetary gain. That being the case, the course if action you posit would not be beneficial to your well being. If you were not opposed to abortion, it would indeed be folly to reject their business. There is a difference between pride and principle.

You beat me to it by two minutes! But the more the merrier…

 

[JRKH]

Ok that’s good.

So your position is that the good stuff I do has nothing to do with God, or God’s Grace? Is that right?

Sarah x

It is NOT my position at all. I’m not sure how you got that from my post…Perhaps because the small section you chose to quote was the only thing that made an impression???

If I may continue with the food analogy…(gonna make myself hungry…http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/hungry/very-hungry.gif)

If you choose to drink the your local grocery store, does the cow force it on you?
Grace comes from God as milk from a cow. When you choose to partake of that grace you partake of something given by God, just as surely as when you drink milk you partake of something given by the cow.
It doesn’t matter if you know where the milk comes from - it doesn’t matter if you know where the grace comes from…

Caveat - this is an imperfect analogy. Let’s not go down the road or “I can see cows”…blah blah blah…Analogies are, by their nature, limited and imperfect.

Peace
James

 

[atheistgirl]

I gather from what you’ve said that, even as an atheist, you would agree that some sense of “spiritual”, or at least moral, well being is more important than monetary gain.

Absolutely!

I like my bed, and I get kranky when I don’t get enough sleep, or don’t sleep well.

I wouldn’t sleep so good if I was involved with making money from businesses I fundamentally disagree with!

But don’t be too shocked

There’s a lot of principled atheist business people out there

Sarah x

 

[JRKH]

Well in that case, that is an outrage.

Seriously an outrage.

The good I do can only be done because of God’s grace, but I get no credit in heaven for it because I don’t have Him in mind, since I don’t accept He exists

Yes it can get very convoluted…

So even though I do not think a god of any kind exists, the Christian position is that even with that in mind, when I do good, that’s God’s Grace.

Yup

But I get no credit, so I am being USED by God, to do this good, yet I get no reward like a Christian would

I believe it might be more correct to say that you are using God…without giving credit…But that is where our “world-views” are different.

Hmmmm, so if God is using me without my say so, He is forcing Himself on me! Using me!

See above

So in that case, how in the world am I free to reject Him, when he’ll just go right along and use me any ol how whenever he wants

Certainly you are free to reject God…God is also free to NOT reject you…
The thought comes to mind of the child (teenager?) who is constantly at odds with their parents and rejects and rebels at every turn - yet the parent, with patience and hope, refuses to reject their child and instead continues to provide good things (and maybe some tough love) to them, encouraging them in all good things.

That does not seem right to me.

Yea - but I think you will figure it out…God seems to be working with you much like he did with me…

Peace
James

 

[Sair]

If we do things solely due to natural inclination we are no better than those who do evil solely due to natural inclination.

Because, goodness knows, the consequences of evil actions are really just the same as the consequences of good actions, and no-one can ever be persuaded to change their ways

It is not a “nudge” but a reasonable response to our willingness to admit we are not self-sufficient, cannot overcome temptations entirely by ourselves and need a source of assistance and inspiration.The do-your-own-thing and go-it-alone policy is doomed to failure and eventual frustration. In other words if intellectual pride becomes deeply ingrained it leads to cynicism and moral decadence.

Well, gosh - and here was I, thinking that other people might provide inspriation and assistance. Silly me.

If the entire range of human motivation and action is a matter of natural variation in biology, upbringing, education and life experiences there is certainly no scope whatsoever for individual choice or responsibility. We are no more than impotent cogs in an inscrutable and impervious machine, helpless spectators of our own choices and decisions, utterly powerless to alter the course of events or even to control our thoughts or feelings - which amounts to a living death…

You assume the ability to exercise self control and at least some form of free will (even if it’s not the libertarian, contra-causal variety favoured by supernaturalists) is not a part of our biology. And just by the bye, ‘inscrutable’ and ‘impervious’ seem like great adjectives to apply to your “immaterial”, “supernatural” - read, utterly undemonstrable - god, who is given credit for all things good but when it comes time to account for anything bad, is declared to be “mysterious”.

 

[atheistgirl]

If I may continue with the food analogy…(gonna make myself hungry…http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/hungry/very-hungry.gif)

You go for it. I’ve just eaten, so I can take it

If you choose to drink the your local grocery store, does the cow force it on you?

Well, that’s my idle time taken up for the rest of the day pondering this
.

It doesn’t matter if you know where the milk comes from - it doesn’t matter if you know where the grace comes from…

Ok, but here’s what I want to get at - can I do good, **without ** this grace?

Let’s not go down the road or “I can see cows”…blah blah blah…

Darn it - I was going to have some fun with that

Sarah x

 

[JRKH]

Completely wrong.

Some of my products can be and are used by abortion clinics.

I do not supply them and do not want my name, business, or products associated with the abortion industry.

I could increase my turnover right now, today, if I swallowed my ‘‘pride and folly’’ as you call it, and targeted every abortion clinic in the US and Europe.

I won’t do that.

(Snip)

Sarah x

I praise God - and I thank you - for your courage and for your’ putting principle before profit.
Honestly - though I don’t know you very well, I am reminded of some of the stories in the NT - and a comment that Jesus made, more than once I think
“You are not far from the Kingdom”…

Keep drinking of His grace and doing that which is good and loving. God is good, gracious, merciful - and patient…

Peace
James

 

[prodigalson2011]

Absolutely!

I like my bed, and I get kranky when I don’t get enough sleep, or don’t sleep well.

I wouldn’t sleep so good if I was involved with making money from businesses I fundamentally disagree with!

But don’t be too shocked

There’s a lot of principled atheist business people out there

Sarah x

I’m not shocked at all. I was an atheist myself for a long time.

 

[atheistgirl]

I’m not shocked at all. I was an atheist myself for a long time.

You got me

Sarah x

 

[JRKH]

You go for it. I’ve just eaten, so I can take it

Yea I gotta get something soon.

Well, that’s my idle time taken up for the rest of the day pondering this

Good at least you won’t be bored.

Ok, but here’s what I want to get at - can I do good, **without ** this grace?

This is where we start to get into some deeper issues - and issues of “definitions” and understandings etc.
If we look at the most basic and fundamental aspect of our faith, it is all reduced to the single word “Love” (Agape in the Greek). This is a deep brotherly love…a love that seeks only the highest good for the other. It is not to be confused with an “eros” type of love.
anyway - If one looks at the NT one sees Jesus reduce "all of the Law and all of the prophets down to this single principle - Love God above all, and Love neighbor as yourself. (Mt 22:36-40)
Later in St John’s first letter, he tells us that God IS Love (1 John 4:7-8)
St Paul places Love above either Faith or Hope.(1 Cor 13:1-13)
Jesus Single great command right before He ascended was that we Love one another and that is how the world would know that we are his disciples.(John 13:34-35)

Now - in the economy of these things - as viewed from the Christian position, things are either of Love, or they are of evil. They either build up or they tear down, they work for the glory of God or they work against it. It is, at it’s core, very black and whit in this way.

Grace - that is the favor of God - is really simply a conduit for Love - which is of God and IS God to flow out through us into the world. The more open one is open to this flow, the more “grace” we say they have, or the more “blessed” they are. But in reality it is simply that they are more open to God’s Love which they put into good works, which in turn makes them more open to the love etc…Conversely if one is not open to the conduit (grace) of God, then God’s Love cannot flow through them.

So - to try to tie this all together - since Love is of God and IS God, when you do good it is in and through His Love and grace is that conduit - that openness that allows it. You do not have to know or understand the mechanism for it to work, but basically the answer to your question is no, you cannot do good outside of God’s grace.

Darn it - I was going to have some fun with that

Hee Hee - yea - I’ve been in too many conversations like this to get caught in that rabbit maze…

Peace
James

 

[Hat4]

Because, goodness knows, the consequences of evil actions are really just the same as the consequences of good actions, and no-one can ever be persuaded to change their ways .

Could you clarify please? You seem to be using sarcasm here but that would mean that you think that all evil actions are immediately punished here on earth and people only avoid them to avoid consequences. Also, in the context of people only acting due to their inclinations, what would being persuaded to change your ways have to due with this? The point seems to be about motivation and not ability to change. Sorry if I’m missing the point, just trying to follow along.

 

[Hat4]

Yep, it is, and through universal agreement and cooperation and empathy we say and know what is right and what is wrong.

Simple.

Can’t see why you just don’t get it.

I used to try to see why we should “be good” when there is not only no divine reason to but also no universal agreement, little cooperation and even less empathy. I’ve read some opinions on this but it always comes across as “don’t listen to the religious people’s unfounded moral values, listen to MY unfounded moral values.” It doesn’t seem simple and easy since most atheist writers seemed to think the opposite until recently.

 

[tonyrey]

If we do things solely due to natural inclination we are no better than those who do evil solely due to natural inclination.

Whether the consequences are known or not is irrelevant. Criminals know them full well and they are rarely persuaded to change their ways.

It is not a “nudge” but a reasonable response to our willingness to admit we are not self-sufficient, cannot overcome temptations entirely by ourselves and need a source of assistance and inspiration.The do-your-own-thing and go-it-alone policy is doomed to failure and eventual frustration. In other words if intellectual pride becomes deeply ingrained it leads to cynicism and moral decadence.

Well, gosh - and here was I, thinking that other people might provide inspriation and assistance. Silly me.

Other people are not always around nor do they always provide inspiration and assistance. Sometimes we have to rely on ourselves and then we discover our limitations and the limitations of science…

If the entire range of human motivation and action is a matter of natural variation in biology, upbringing, education and life experiences there is certainly no scope whatsoever for individual choice or responsibility. We are no more than impotent cogs in an inscrutable and impervious machine, helpless spectators of our own choices and decisions, utterly powerless to alter the course of events or even to control our thoughts or feelings - which amounts to a living death…

You assume the ability to exercise self control and at least some form of free will (even if it’s not the libertarian, contra-causal variety favoured by supernaturalists) is not a part of our biology.

How does a physical organism act contra-causally?

And just by the bye, ‘inscrutable’ and ‘impervious’ seem like great adjectives to apply to your “immaterial”, “supernatural” - read, utterly undemonstrable - god, who is given credit for all things good but when it comes time to account for anything bad, is declared to be “mysterious”.

An unsubstantiated assertion that has been easily disproved.

The fact remains that a **mechanistic **explanation of reality leads inexorably to the conclusion that we are impotent cogs in a machine unaware of our existence and helpless spectators of our own choices and decisions, utterly powerless to alter the course of events or control our thoughts or feelings. To think otherwise is to reject the principle of (physical) causality.

 

[tonyrey]

I used to try to see why we should “be good” when there is not only no divine reason to but also no universal agreement, little cooperation and even less empathy. I’ve read some opinions on this but it always comes across as “don’t listen to the religious people’s unfounded moral values, listen to MY unfounded moral values.” It doesn’t seem simple and easy since most atheist writers seemed to think the opposite until recently.

Inconsistently!

 

[Contarini]

A comment by a poster on another thread got me thinking about something.

If God doesn’t force Himself on those that reject Him, or those who simply say there’s not enough evidence to make any kind of belief in Him possible, how can Christians then claim that the good that atheists do, can only be done by the Grace of God

If that is true, then God is indeed forcing Himself on those that do not believe in Him because He is imbuing them with a Grace they neither asked for, nor want.

I do a certain amount of good in my local community. I use the success I’ve had to inspire young girls to go into business. I fund certain things for children who otherwise wouldn’t be able to affort them, because I believe in the importance of building a firm foundation for the future of all children, and I see education as a cornerstone to this.

According to the above, the only reason I am doing any of this, is because of the Grace from a God I do not believe exists

How can that be?

And how can this God then ever condemn me for not believing in Him, when it doesn’t make any difference anyhow, He’ll just go right on and make me do good and fill me with Grace, whether I want it or not

From a traditional Christian perspective, you exist because God is causing you to exist at every minute, living and breathing in you.

God isn’t a “guy” manipulating you.

God is Life itself by which you live,.

So of course everything good you do comes from God. That may seem intrusive to you, but you’re thinking as if God is another being standing over against you. That’s not the traditional Christian concept. (Traditional Christianity is much closer to Hinduism in this respect than many conservative Christians today would have you believe–note that I said closer and certainly not identical.)

You can choose to acknowledge God or not. God will not force your will. It is only at the level of the will that you are capable of separating yourself from God, and you can only separate yourself from God insofar as you embrace error or evil.

You are only culpable for doing so, however, if you do it knowingly. If you believe in good faith, while earnestly pursuing truth, beauty, and goodness, that there is no God, then of course God will not condemn you for that (if I’m right and it turns out that there is a God after all!).

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Well in that case, that is an outrage.

Seriously an outrage.

For what it’s worth, I agree.

I would even say that an atheist who loves truth and goodness and pursues them for their own sake may gain a greater reward from God than someone who does the same acts in the belief that they will be rewarded.

But I’d prefer not to talk about reward at all. The reward, after all, just is God–conscious participation in the God without whom we cannot live but of whom we are largely unaware.

So it’s not that God won’t reward you, but that so far you are refusing the reward–or perhaps simply refusing to call it by the same name the rest of us do!

Edwin

 

[atheistgirl]

You can choose to acknowledge God or not. God will not force your will. It is only at the level of the will that you are capable of separating yourself from God, and you can only separate yourself from God insofar as you embrace error or evil.

If I understand you correctly, if God is responsible for my very life, and God is the ultimate Good, then any good I do, is simply because of God, because my actions are in line (somewhat) with His nature, and well, to put it simply (I have to think about these things in simple terms which is why I will never be a philosopher!!!) I couldn’t do anything else if I’m in tune with Him.

However, if I decide to do something bad, then THAT act, is a willful act on my part to go against God, since He would never sanction such action, but will not stop me, since I have free will.

I have no idea if that’s right or not but that’s kinda what I got from what you’re saying.

Does that not mean then, that my natural default position is to do good, since my very life, and being, is from God, who is all Good, so, to act naturally, to act according to my nature, is actually to do good?

But doesn’t Christianity say my natural default position is to do bad, because I’m a broken human being, and it’s only by willfully accepting God and so on, that I can do good?

Sarah x