God doesn't force Himself on those who reject Him?

[tonyrey]

I don’t understand: how is Fakename one of thousands of conflicting Christian sects?

The thousands of conflicting Christian sects were usually started by one person! Thy were solo enterprises to begin with… Joseph Smith comes to mind.

 

[mangy_dog]

A comment by a poster on another thread got me thinking about something.

If God doesn’t force Himself on those that reject Him, or those who simply say there’s not enough evidence to make any kind of belief in Him possible, how can Christians then claim that the good that atheists do, can only be done by the Grace of God

If that is true, then God is indeed forcing Himself on those that do not believe in Him because He is imbuing them with a Grace they neither asked for, nor want.

I do a certain amount of good in my local community. I use the success I’ve had to inspire young girls to go into business. I fund certain things for children who otherwise wouldn’t be able to affort them, because I believe in the importance of building a firm foundation for the future of all children, and I see education as a cornerstone to this.

According to the above, the only reason I am doing any of this, is because of the Grace from a God I do not believe exists

How can that be?

And how can this God then ever condemn me for not believing in Him, when it doesn’t make any difference anyhow, He’ll just go right on and make me do good and fill me with Grace, whether I want it or not

I don’t believe in the devil either. But to be fair, that must mean even though I don’t believe in him either, anything not so good that I do (I’m not perfect ) must be influenced by him, even though I don’t care for him, and don’t believe he exists!

My body and mind is just like a football field to these guys, playing me off one against the other

I don’t get it.

Sarah x

A simple analogy that shows how God’s grace works is that of the rain…God makes it rain on everyone- the good, the bad and the ugly.

Some people walk in the rain, others run to prevent getting wet and yet others will not go outside if it is raining.

Grace is like rain. Grace is resistible. It is given freely and needs to be accepted freely. Grace is not enforced or imposed on anyone.

In your example- an atheist would have to consciously go through some rigorous mental gymnastics in order to intentionally reject God’s grace in his good actions. An atheist would (if asked) deny that his or her actions were motivated by God’s grace even though they may be [soaken wet].

Christians recognize God’s grace in light of His active and passive will. God can make something happen and He can allow for something to happen.

In the end…God’s grace is like rain.

 

[mangy_dog]

A comment by a poster on another thread got me thinking about something.

If God doesn’t force Himself on those that reject Him, or those who simply say there’s not enough evidence to make any kind of belief in Him possible, how can Christians then claim that the good that atheists do, can only be done by the Grace of God

If that is true, then God is indeed forcing Himself on those that do not believe in Him because He is imbuing them with a Grace they neither asked for, nor want.

I do a certain amount of good in my local community. I use the success I’ve had to inspire young girls to go into business. I fund certain things for children who otherwise wouldn’t be able to affort them, because I believe in the importance of building a firm foundation for the future of all children, and I see education as a cornerstone to this.

According to the above, the only reason I am doing any of this, is because of the Grace from a God I do not believe exists

How can that be?

And how can this God then ever condemn me for not believing in Him, when it doesn’t make any difference anyhow, He’ll just go right on and make me do good and fill me with Grace, whether I want it or not

I don’t believe in the devil either. But to be fair, that must mean even though I don’t believe in him either, anything not so good that I do (I’m not perfect ) must be influenced by him, even though I don’t care for him, and don’t believe he exists!

My body and mind is just like a football field to these guys, playing me off one against the other

I don’t get it.

Sarah x

Sarah,

You live a natural existence. Exercising your natural powers of will and intellect. To you God doesn’t exist but that doesn’t preclude Him from existing. You reject His grace but that does not preclude His grace from bringing good results even from our bad actions.

Your reticence to even concieve of God’s grace raining on all- passively or actively- is the same as the demons in hell who cannot escape God’s presence or even the thought of God in all they do and think… and this is their torture.

The demons believe in God. They just hate Him and want to be as far away as possible from Him because they percieve Him as the oppressor of their freedom to do as they please.

Good actions without grace and, actively trying to exclude the thought of grace coming from God- are just natural actions. They benefit the one that recieves the good and do nothing for the one that rejects God.

God is not forcing himself on you- He is just acting supernaturally in a passive or active way. And, “the devil made me do it” is not accurate either. Your own concupiscience is sufficient to keep you in your atheist error.

 

[atheistgirl]

Good actions without grace and, actively trying to exclude the thought of grace coming from God- are just natural actions.

I agree, I think that’s what they are, natural.

They benefit the one that recieves the good and do nothing for the one that rejects God.

I disagree. I get back tons from the good things I do for others. More than they’ll ever know actually.

Your own concupiscience is sufficient to keep you in your atheist error.

Possibly.

I keep engaging in conversations, discussions and debate, I love learning and understanding and discovering, I love understanding things from anothers point of view, but thus far, nothing of the truth of any Deity has been convincingly presented to me, that I can see.

Sarah x

 

[mangy_dog]

I agree, I think that’s what they are, natural.

I disagree. I get back tons from the good things I do for others. More than they’ll ever know actually.

Possibly.

I keep engaging in conversations, discussions and debate, I love learning and understanding and discovering, I love understanding things from anothers point of view, but thus far, nothing of the truth of any Deity has been convincingly presented to me, that I can see.

Sarah x

“…tons of good things…”

Do you recognize God as the origin of your goods? If not, your percieved good is devoid of the good that is God.

 

[je333]

Hello Sarah!

Do you or others call or label yourself atheist based solely on Christian beliefs and teachings? Have you investigated other culture’s beliefs that focus more on Nature and/or actions? I know and are close to people who are professing atheists and professing Christians but when I look at their actions alone, the professing atheists are more “Christian” like.

je333

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Hello Sarah!

Do you or others call or label yourself atheist based solely on Christian beliefs and teachings? Have you investigated other culture’s beliefs that focus more on Nature and/or actions?

I’m in “others” so I’ll share my response too.

With respect to all theistic religions with which I have familiarity I would be classified as an atheists. To avoid confusion the definition that would be used here is one that hasn’t been convinced that a proposed god concept is real (nuance note: this encompasses but doesn’t always mean one that believes that a proposed god concept is false. Though there are some god concepts that I’ve got no problem classifying as fictitious ).

I’ve seen some other cultures beliefs that focus on nature, but don’t feel the need to investigate them. However I have been trying to make my own impact (be it ever so small) to the environment and communities both local and abroad. I’ve been investigating how purchasing decisions impact the environment and have been slowly making adjustments for them. The adjustments range from recycling (in the immediate term, which requires effort since I live in a place with no recycling facilities) to changing the types of light bulbs that I use (slowly, as the bulbs are about $40 each). In the longer term goals I’m looking at a vehicle that uses clean fuels. The Tesla Model S is the first one that appears to be viable for my commute. Not nature related, but there are a few people/community related charities and organizations to which I contribute.

I know and are close to people who are professing atheists and professing Christians but when I look at their actions alone, the professing atheists are more “Christian” like.

I’d prefer to call it being environmentally conscious and a community contributer. The Christian label doesn’t necessarily imply that some one is engaged in these activities, nor are all the people engaged in these activities Christian. so it’s a bit of a misnomer to call it “Christian like.” It kind of reminds me of a now outdated expression that went something like “do the white man thing.”

 

[atheistgirl]

Do you recognize God as the origin of your goods?

No.

If not, your percieved good is devoid of the good that is God.

That would be true.

But as I do not believe such a being exists, I do not feel deprived of any goodnes, as all the goodness I experience, comes from nature, my fellow man, animals, and nature itself.

Sarah x

 

[je333]

I’m in “others” so I’ll share my response too.

With respect to all theistic religions with which I have familiarity I would be classified as an atheists. To avoid confusion the definition that would be used here is one that hasn’t been convinced that a proposed god concept is real (nuance note: this encompasses but doesn’t always mean one that believes that a proposed god concept is false. Though there are some god concepts that I’ve got no problem classifying as fictitious ).

I’ve seen some other cultures beliefs that focus on nature, but don’t feel the need to investigate them. However I have been trying to make my own impact (be it ever so small) to the environment and communities both local and abroad. I’ve been investigating how purchasing decisions impact the environment and have been slowly making adjustments for them. The adjustments range from recycling (in the immediate term, which requires effort since I live in a place with no recycling facilities) to changing the types of light bulbs that I use (slowly, as the bulbs are about $40 each). In the longer term goals I’m looking at a vehicle that uses clean fuels. The Tesla Model S is the first one that appears to be viable for my commute. Not nature related, but there are a few people/community related charities and organizations to which I contribute.

I’d prefer to call it being environmentally conscious and a community contributer. The Christian label doesn’t necessarily imply that some one is engaged in these activities, nor are all the people engaged in these activities Christian. so it’s a bit of a misnomer to call it “Christian like.” It kind of reminds me of a now outdated expression that went something like “do the white man thing.”

To ThinkingSapien and Sarah, too, and everyone else.

That’s great to hear that you are environmentally conscious and are doing your part to do goodness for our mother earth as I always believe that how we treat our natural environment and the earth among many others is how we treat ourselves as we(our physical bodies) are made from it. I guess I picked up this kind of belief from the East and those of the native inhabitants around the world and Catholicism. I was for many years considered atheist as well as I questioned the existence of God especially when I was in college. And like Sarah, I didn’t believe in God and the devil. But despite of my lack of faith in the past, God’s love is greater than my million sins and rejection of him. I learned that even if you don’t like him, He will still love you. So when I came back to Catholicism and want to know about God, my initial approach was not a belief but an experience or should I say I made more emphasis on experience than the beliefs. I wanted to experience him in a contemplative ways. So I went searching and found that the philosophies of the East and the West differ in which the Easterners ask, “What must I do to be saved?” while the Westerners ask, “What must I believe to be saved?” You can read this also from the book, The Secrets of Happiness: Three Thousand Years of Searching …by Richard Schoch if interested… It made a big impact on me. Learning about God thru scripture readings and attending mass and the RCIA just gave me a validation of what I learned about God alone thru direct experience of him. It’s not for everyone but this is how I sealed my faith and relationship with him.

 

[atheistgirl]

Hello Sarah!

Hi

Do you or others call or label yourself atheist based solely on Christian beliefs and teachings?

No I label myself an atheist because I do not think there is any evidence for any kind of Being of a supernatural nature to exist.

Have you investigated other culture’s beliefs that focus more on Nature and/or actions?

Yep. I come from one.

Sarah x

 

[je333]

Yep. I come from one.

Would it be safe then to say that you are comparing your own culture’s beliefs to Christianity and because of the difference in beliefs that you arrived in thinking that you are an atheist? Is it not true that other culture that worship Nature or the Sun for example a form of “religious” belief and relies on it’s providence?

No I label myself an atheist because I do not think there is any evidence for any kind of Being of a supernatural nature to exist.
Sarah x

I feel as if you are searching for something otherwise you wouldn’t be on Catholic forum… What evidence do you need to believe?

 

[WTSherman]

You fool! The whole point of God’s wrath is that he is merciful even to tavern wenches.

 

[je333]

No I label myself an atheist because I do not think there is any evidence for any kind of Being of a supernatural nature to exist.
Sarah x

Since you are coming from a different culture and with different beliefs, I wouldn’t approach in trying to understand God and how he is taught in Christianity this kind of question but rather it would be more effective to compliment your traditional ways to that of the Christian ways, without forcing it on you, of course.

You might already have a misconception of what or who God is? If you think God is this old guy with a long beard who lives far away above us then, yeah, that’s a wrong image of him. God is IN you. He dwells in you, in your mind, in your body, in your heart, in your soul. I feel as if you are searching for something otherwise you wouldn’t be on Catholic forum… What evidence do you need to believe?

 

[Marylamb128]

A comment by a poster on another thread got me thinking about something.

If God doesn’t force Himself on those that reject Him, or those who simply say there’s not enough evidence to make any kind of belief in Him possible, how can Christians then claim that the good that atheists do, can only be done by the Grace of God

If that is true, then God is indeed forcing Himself on those that do not believe in Him because He is imbuing them with a Grace they neither asked for, nor want.

I do a certain amount of good in my local community. I use the success I’ve had to inspire young girls to go into business. I fund certain things for children who otherwise wouldn’t be able to affort them, because I believe in the importance of building a firm foundation for the future of all children, and I see education as a cornerstone to this.

According to the above, the only reason I am doing any of this, is because of the Grace from a God I do not believe exists

How can that be?

And how can this God then ever condemn me for not believing in Him, when it doesn’t make any difference anyhow, He’ll just go right on and make me do good and fill me with Grace, whether I want it or not

I don’t believe in the devil either. But to be fair, that must mean even though I don’t believe in him either, anything not so good that I do (I’m not perfect ) must be influenced by him, even though I don’t care for him, and don’t believe he exists!

My body and mind is just like a football field to these guys, playing me off one against the other

I don’t get it.

Sarah x

 

[Marylamb128]

Marylamb128:
Even though you don’t believe in God He believes in you,and He knows you personally and how everything will turn out,so right now you don’t believe but something tells me you called for help at onetime and He did’t answer or you thought He didn’t .I could be off base,I practice catholism and I do no charity work whatsoever,if someone asks I will help but do not go out of my way.Does this mean I am not graced?I don’t know,I wish I had whatever it is you have so I can help people,but see God doesn’t force anyone to do anything.maybe you can pass that whatever you call it on to me,I call it grace and God loves you.one more thought are pride and ego is huge so sometimes charity work is ego based I’m not saying that it’s not a good thing but if your doing it for the good feeling that’s ego based and we are human all of us are driven by ego,when it’s grace the ego is not in the picture it’s kind of an unawareness of the loving acts your doing and that comes from God,it’s like driving to a place when your like wow how did I get here your mind was somewhere else but you got there,you weren’t consious of the route but you got to point b,same with grace when it’s grace you do it without the ego involved.marylamb

 

[Linusthe2nd]

A comment by a poster on another thread got me thinking about something.

If God doesn’t force Himself on those that reject Him, or those who simply say there’s not enough evidence to make any kind of belief in Him possible, how can Christians then claim that the good that atheists do, can only be done by the Grace of God

If that is true, then God is indeed forcing Himself on those that do not believe in Him because He is imbuing them with a Grace they neither asked for, nor want.

I do a certain amount of good in my local community. I use the success I’ve had to inspire young girls to go into business. I fund certain things for children who otherwise wouldn’t be able to affort them, because I believe in the importance of building a firm foundation for the future of all children, and I see education as a cornerstone to this.

According to the above, the only reason I am doing any of this, is because of the Grace from a God I do not believe exists

How can that be?

And how can this God then ever condemn me for not believing in Him, when it doesn’t make any difference anyhow, He’ll just go right on and make me do good and fill me with Grace, whether I want it or not

I don’t believe in the devil either. But to be fair, that must mean even though I don’t believe in him either, anything not so good that I do (I’m not perfect ) must be influenced by him, even though I don’t care for him, and don’t believe he exists!

My body and mind is just like a football field to these guys, playing me off one against the other

I don’t get it.

Sarah x

Here is what the Church teaches. You can perform naturally good acts. Whether they would have supernatural merit only God could answer. However, he does move you in all your acts, maintains you in existence, and directs you to your proper end - whether you believe it or not, whether you want it or not. And he no doubt " inspires " you to do even naturally good acts. In the O.T. there are plenty of examples of how God moved the Assyrians or the Persians, or other peoples to either punish or help his people. On the other hand, when you do something you recoginze as bad or evil, Satan would be influencing you - usually indirectly. But we have free will, we can cooperate with our good intentions or thoughts ( listening to God ) or reject them ( listening to Satan).

The Church also teaches that all people of good will, who through no fault of their own do not know him, can be saved. On the other hand it also teaches that no normal adult can for a long time reject belief in Him without being held morally culpable. In that case one’s salvation would be doubtful. And even if one believes in Him, and follows His Word, no one is assured of salvation. We must work out our salvation " with fear and trembling, " not taking anything for granted. As St Paul said “…work so as to win the prize…”

The thing is, whether we want Him or not, He wants us and the moment we die we will know wheather we will spend eternity in hell or heaven. You see, He doesn’t care what we want, He has a plan for us and if we reject it and Him, there will be no heaven for us. After death there are no mulligans.

 

[fhansen]

A comment by a poster on another thread got me thinking about something.

If God doesn’t force Himself on those that reject Him, or those who simply say there’s not enough evidence to make any kind of belief in Him possible, how can Christians then claim that the good that atheists do, can only be done by the Grace of God

If that is true, then God is indeed forcing Himself on those that do not believe in Him because He is imbuing them with a Grace they neither asked for, nor want.

I do a certain amount of good in my local community. I use the success I’ve had to inspire young girls to go into business. I fund certain things for children who otherwise wouldn’t be able to affort them, because I believe in the importance of building a firm foundation for the future of all children, and I see education as a cornerstone to this.

According to the above, the only reason I am doing any of this, is because of the Grace from a God I do not believe exists

How can that be?

And how can this God then ever condemn me for not believing in Him, when it doesn’t make any difference anyhow, He’ll just go right on and make me do good and fill me with Grace, whether I want it or not

I don’t believe in the devil either. But to be fair, that must mean even though I don’t believe in him either, anything not so good that I do (I’m not perfect ) must be influenced by him, even though I don’t care for him, and don’t believe he exists!

My body and mind is just like a football field to these guys, playing me off one against the other

I don’t get it.

Sarah x

We’re judged by God on our love. Matthew 25:31-46 as well as the story of the Good Samaritan demonstrate this fact-and St John of the Cross, a Doctor of the Church, stated it explicitly: “At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.” And faith, I believe, is at least implicit in this kind of love, even if we deny it or are unaware of it.

 

[atheistgirl]

but something tells me you called for help at onetime and He did’t answer or you thought He didn’t .I could be off base,

Totally off base.

Never happened. Ever.

.one more thought are pride and ego is huge so sometimes charity work is ego based I’m not saying that it’s not a good thing but if your doing it for the good feeling that’s ego based

There is no denying I feel good about what I do. It adds to my sense of selfworth, and pride in myself. For sure.

But that’s not the reason I do what I do. That’s a byproduct of what I do.

I do it to make a difference, a real difference, to the lives of the kids and young adults we work with.

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

On the other hand it also teaches that no normal adult can for a long time reject belief in Him without being held morally culpable. In that case one’s salvation would be doubtful.

Well, on that basis I am definately morally culpable.

I reject believe in all and any Deities on the basis I see no evidence for such a belief.

So, I guess my salvation is doubtful.

Oh well.

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

We’re judged by God on our love.

Wait.

Hold that last post of mine regarding my salvation.

I’m a very loving person.

There may yet be hope for me.



Sarah x