God doesn't make any mistakes!

[Lea101]

So it was 11pm and me+my friends were texting each other (group chat). We were basically in the “I’m-so-depressed-look-at-how-pretty-she-is-why-is-life-so-unfair” moods. One of my friend (Chinese) made a comment (jokingly) about how God hates her because she is really tall and curvy and usually guys like “tiny asians”.

My other friend replied that “God doesn’t make mistakes” to cheer her up. Then we got into this debate lol.

One friend thinks we are all perfect and gorgeous etc and the other thinks that yes, God doesn’t make mistakes, but he plans to make us ugly or have a disability because he doesn’t like us, and hence it is not a mistake (she is rather troubled when it comes to religion. Agnostic, hates Christianity and Islam).

My view was that God doesn’t make mistakes in the sense that he created our souls in the best way possible. But when it comes us being formed in the womb, he doesn’t really “choose” how we look, or whatever that happens to us. So for example, God didn’t create me with a sharp nose, or made my eyes look funny. He let biology do its thing. Like I don’t think he cares enough to specifically ‘design’ how we look. To Adam and Eve, sure, but after that, he leaves it to biology/nature

This way of thinking is rather comforting in the sense that if it was true, I know God didn’t make me/people who are born with disabilities this way on purpose?

Is this in line with Catholic teaching? If not, slap me with some hard truth please! I really want to know I’m the only catholic in the group. My dad kind of agrees with me, but he also agrees with weird stuff

forgive me if this is in the wrong thread, I am half asleep!

 

[Della]

I don’t think you’re wrong, although God certainly knew what each of us would look like. We’re children of our biology, that’s certain. But the idea that all of us should look the same–according to whose standards? is just plan silly.

Look at any magazine and you’ll see that make-up artists, fashion designers and photographers can make anyone look gorgeous, if what you want is to look like a glossy magazine picture.

But we live in the real world with amateur attempts at make-up, wearing what we think looks good on us without the benefit of a designer to help us, and with no special lighting to deemphasize whatever we think is “bad” about ourselves.

There’s no point in debating which type of woman men like. A man is attracted to a woman because he’s attracted to her, not because she fits some artificial image of what women are supposed to look like.

As for your tall, curvy friend–hey! there are lots of guys who like a gal with a shape instead of looking like a celery stick. But even the celery stick gal isn’t going to attract every guy out there–certainly not my husband, but that’s him.

We women fuss about these things far too much. What we should be thinking about it meeting and marrying the right guy, if we’re called to marriage. And being good wives and mothers (if we have children) with a good man who wants the same things.

In my experience I’ve come to realize that worrying about what we don’t have instead of making the best of what we do have it a waste of valuable time and effort.

 

[Lea101]

We weren’t really debating about what men like, she was just annoyed because she is not a typical Asian

Tall + curvy >>>>. I’m short and I have no curves. I’m of Indian ethnicity too, and usually the ideal is tall and curvy. It’s kind of funny

 

[Della]

We weren’t really debating about what men like, she was just annoyed because she is not a typical Asian

Well, you did write that you friend said that guys don’t like her height and figure. So, for her, at least, it is an issue.

Tall + curvy >>>>. I’m short and I have no curves. I’m of Indian ethnicity too, and usually the ideal is tall and curvy. It’s kind of funny

Every culture has it’s definition of beauty or the norm, of course. Now, if your friend could only move to India, she’d be fine. So, yes, it is funny in that way.

 

[Monica4316]

I think God allows these things, as everything is according to His Will, but… Some things are not actually ‘wrong’, they are just not the ideal of our society. It doesn’t mean the person is “ugly”. If there is an actual deformity in some way, that is something that was allowed but not out of malice, rather God ordains everything through love - even our crosses. Each cross we carry is for a reason and to bring us to holiness. I understand that crosses regarding appearance can be especially hurtful in our society but I think that also means they receive a high merit if carried with love.

Personally, there are things about my appearance that I never liked growing up, but now I see they make me unique, and also protect from more vanity. In the end, I’d rather be a bit plain than vain.

Even if things are caused by nature, God still allows them, not because He wants to see us suffer but to bring a greater good from it in the end. Its one way He counters the fall - by making a response to the effects of the fall that leads to a greater good. Like the Cross

The important part is to trust in God’s goodness.

 

[EasterJoy]

Well, obviously some poor children are born without brains, so the idea that we can be born without something hardly implies that it is unnecessary. There is disease, deformity and misfortune in the world, and it does extend into afflictions we can be born with. If we could conclude that congenital blindness was the intention of God, then obviously Our Lord would have told the man born blind to be proud of the way he was made, and that would have been that. No, the story goes like this: “As he passed by he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, ‘Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?’ Jesus answered, 'Neither he nor his parents sinned; it is so that the works of God might be made visible through him.’” (John 9:1-3)

We can see, then, that we cannot conclude that our lot in life was intended by God to be our permanent lot any more than we can conclude our misfortunes are all punishments or “teaching moments.” Take the case of the child who suffers because his or her parents divorce. The child sometimes concludes he or she did something wrong. No. Sometimes we suffer for reasons that have nothing to do with us, because there is sin and suffering in this world. We cannot always know, because the wisdom of God is not revealed to us in its entirety in this life. We love God, we trust God, we love our neighbor, we do our best to understand, but we don’t rush to believe that we are so wise that God’s entire plan is known to us.

That little aside had to do with true suffering, not (to be very blunt) the trivial problem of looking different than someone we envy. On that note, I think you’re taking the wrong tack on your friends’ complaints. When she says, “Guys like tiny Asians,” you might say, “Well, you never know what any particular guy is going to like, except that very few of them like the looks of a woman who hasn’t even learned to like her own looks herself. How attractive is it when someone is envious or gives in to insecurity or who is always going to be discontented?” Harsh words, but I think the truth of it is hard to deny. If you want to be attractive, do your best to appreciate your own looks and groom yourself so as to show you care about how you present yourself to others. After that, don’t worry a lot about looks. “Your adornment should not be an external one: braiding the hair, wearing gold jewelry, or dressing in fine clothes, but rather the hidden character of the heart, expressed in the imperishable beauty of a gentle and calm disposition, which is precious in the sight of God. For this is also how the holy women who hoped in God once used to adorn themselves…” 1 Pet. 3:3-5a

Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well.
~Robert Louis Stevenson

When someone says, “God gave me bad looks as a punishment,” you might say, “I don’t think that when we are jealous of what someone else has that we didn’t get, we ought to blame it on God. That is ungrateful. It is not as if there aren’t many women who wouldn’t be jealous of your looks. When you turn 60, you’ll wish you had the sense to appreciate looking young and pretty while you were still young and pretty!!”

The short answer is, “You’re pretty–you ought to be grateful! Besides, women who choose to be happy with themselves are always prettier than the same women are when they are always discontented and complaining.”

 

[John_Lazarus]

After his election, Pope John XXIII said something along the lines of, “God knew all my life that I was going to be Pope. You’d think he’d make me at least a little photogenic.”

Also, see this passage from Isaiah 53:2:

And he shall grow up as a tender plant before him, and as a root out of a thirsty ground: there is no beauty in him, nor comeliness: and we have seen him, and there was no sightliness, that we should be desirous of him:

 

[EasterJoy]

After his election, Pope John XXIII said something along the lines of, “God knew all my life that I was going to be Pope. You’d think he’d make me at least a little photogenic.”

Also, see this passage from Isaiah 53:2:

“God must love the common man. He made so many of them.” —Abraham Lincoln

 

[Polycarp1]

Well, obviously some poor children are born without brains

Do they grow up to become politicians?

 

[GEddie]

After his election, Pope John XXIII said something along the lines of, “God knew all my life that I was going to be Pope. You’d think he’d make me at least a little photogenic.”

Also, see this passage from Isaiah 53:2:

That verse is often understood to mean our LORD during His suffering, rather than that He was unattractive His entire life.

ICXC NIKA

 

[EasterJoy]

Do they grow up to become politicians?

No, actually, people who go into politics usually start out bright, but the life can suck them away, bit by bit. The more that gets sucked out of them, the higher and the faster they rise.

 

[Monica4316]

Well, obviously some poor children are born without brains, so the idea that we can be born without something hardly implies that it is unnecessary. There is disease, deformity and misfortune in the world, and it does extend into afflictions we can be born with. If we could conclude that congenital blindness was the intention of God, then obviously Our Lord would have told the man born blind to be proud of the way he was made, and that would have been that. No, the story goes like this: “As he passed by he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, ‘Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?’ Jesus answered, 'Neither he nor his parents sinned; it is so that the works of God might be made visible through him.’” (John 9:1-3)

We can see, then, that we cannot conclude that our lot in life was intended by God to be our permanent lot any more than we can conclude our misfortunes are all punishments or “teaching moments.” Take the case of the child who suffers because his or her parents divorce. The child sometimes concludes he or she did something wrong. No. Sometimes we suffer for reasons that have nothing to do with us, because there is sin and suffering in this world. We cannot always know, because the wisdom of God is not revealed to us in its entirety in this life. We love God, we trust God, we love our neighbor, we do our best to understand, but we don’t rush to believe that we are so wise that God’s entire plan is known to us.

I think that God allowing suffering doesn’t mean that He intended it as a punishment… it is an effect of the fall, of course, which God doesn’t want in itself, but He can use it for something. I don’t mean necessarily for a “teaching moment” but for example, how God was glorified in the man who was healed of his blindness in the Gospel. But there are other ways this could happen without even a cure, for example a deeper sharing in the Cross. I guess we’ll more fully understanding this in Heaven we don’t need to understand everything here, just trust. The way of unknowing and of faith is often the most trustworthy, as it teaches the most confidence in God.

That little aside had to do with true suffering, not (to be very blunt) the trivial problem of looking different than someone we envy. On that note, I think you’re taking the wrong tack on your friends’ complaints. When she says, “Guys like tiny Asians,” you might say, “Well, you never know what any particular guy is going to like, except that very few of them like the looks of a woman who hasn’t even learned to like her own looks herself. How attractive is it when someone is envious or gives in to insecurity or who is always going to be discontented?” Harsh words, but I think the truth of it is hard to deny. If you want to be attractive, do your best to appreciate your own looks and groom yourself so as to show you care about how you present yourself to others. After that, don’t worry a lot about looks. “Your adornment should not be an external one: braiding the hair, wearing gold jewelry, or dressing in fine clothes, but rather the hidden character of the heart, expressed in the imperishable beauty of a gentle and calm disposition, which is precious in the sight of God. For this is also how the holy women who hoped in God once used to adorn themselves…” 1 Pet. 3:3-5a

Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well.
~Robert Louis Stevenson

When someone says, “God gave me bad looks as a punishment,” you might say, “I don’t think that when we are jealous of what someone else has that we didn’t get, we ought to blame it on God. That is ungrateful. It is not as if there aren’t many women who wouldn’t be jealous of your looks. When you turn 60, you’ll wish you had the sense to appreciate looking young and pretty while you were still young and pretty!!”

The short answer is, “You’re pretty–you ought to be grateful! Besides, women who choose to be happy with themselves are always prettier than the same women are when they are always discontented and complaining.”

There is truth to this… I grew up feeling very uncomfortable with how I looked and wanting to change it. I used massive amounts of makeup to change my face because I didn’t like it. The day I made my Consecration to Our Lady, I realized I’m trying to change HIs work, and later I realized how ungrateful that was of me, to be so unhappy with how He made me. So maybe I won’t make it on a magazine cover. But would I ACTUALLY be happy if I did? I won’t fill my heart. It would turn it to created things instead of my true supernatural end. I could be tempted to vanity and give in and maybe lose my soul. What is most important?

In the end, …if I am so unhappy with my looks and constantly think about it, I’m only thinking of my body, when God gave me a spiritual immortal soul. He made us more than bodies. How does God see me? focusing only on appearance lowers who we are, because we are not only appearance.

 

[Monica4316]

That verse is often understood to mean our LORD during His suffering, rather than that He was unattractive His entire life.

ICXC NIKA

that’s my understanding too - it’s about His Passion.

 

[Elena321]

That verse is often understood to mean our LORD during His suffering, rather than that He was unattractive His entire life.

ICXC NIKA

In which way do you think it is interpreted please?

 

[Elena321]

Sometimes I find it hard to know whether it is just God allowing Biology to just do it’s work or whether it is His plan.
On one hand,we are told God looks at a persons heart and doesn’t care about their external appearance or place different values on people according to their looks,but on the other hand we are also told/aware that God is the creator of beauty and I guess this extends to people too and not just nature.

I think your view may be compatible with Catholic teaching because,referencing that Youtube video of the priest you posted on a different thread,maybe it is Gods “permissive will” and not His “absolute will”?

I think comparing ourselves to others is what makes it even harder.

At the same time,I don’t agree with people that say everyone was created gorgeous physically in their own way as this isn’t realistic.
In real life,there are some women who get asked out a lot more by men because of being pretty/looks.
Yes it is true that there are different kind of beauty but like in nature analogy- there are different kinds of flowers that are lovely in their own unique way but no one finds a weed lovely…

Are some people born/become unattractive because they are simply “victims” to poor genetics or illness/pathological processes or is it part of a greater plan by God to make society less superficial and more compassionate?

 

[Lea101]

Sometimes I find it hard to know whether it is just God allowing Biology to just do it’s work or whether it is His plan.
On one hand,we are told God looks at a persons heart and doesn’t care about their external appearance or place different values on people according to their looks,but on the other hand we are also told/aware that God is the creator of beauty and I guess this extends to people too and not just nature.

I think your view may be compatible with Catholic teaching because,referencing that Youtube video of the priest you posted on a different thread,maybe it is Gods “permissive will” and not His “absolute will”?

I think comparing ourselves to others is what makes it even harder.

At the same time,I don’t agree with people that say everyone was created gorgeous physically in their own way as this isn’t realistic.
In real life,there are some women who get asked out a lot more by men because of being pretty/looks.
Yes it is true that there are different kind of beauty but like in nature analogy- there are different kinds of flowers that are lovely in their own unique way but no one finds a weed lovely…

Are some people born/become unattractive because they are simply “victims” to poor genetics or illness/pathological processes or is it part of a greater plan by God to make society less superficial and more compassionate?

Yeah, that video shaped my view on this.

And yes, I don’t agree with the “everyone is gorgeous” nonsense. IMO people only say that to make someone else feel better.

And with the flowers. They are all different but they are generally beautiful to most people. I feel that analogy applies to stuff like people of all races, features are all still pretty, you don’t have to be blonde and blue-eyed to be pretty. But like the flowers, these people are usually to some extent, objectively beautiful. (like um…say Beyonce and Selena Gomez. One is black, one is mexican. But most people will agree that they are both physically beautiful). IMO there are flowers and there are weeds Some people may have a fetish for weeds, but that doesn’t count!

However I don’t believe the presence of ugly people make society less superficial. Society thrives on this. They make $$ off on insecurity (weight loss, fad diets, nose jobs etc). Some people do say that if everyone is beautiful, beautiful won’t exist. So God made ugly people who people with the gift of beauty will “stand out”. But that seems mean lol! People with disabilities being made to make society a better place, maybe, but then like on the other thread about suffering-wouldn’t that mean that a disabled person is disabled just so someone else can be a better person? isn’t that unfair?

Which is why I feel like God not “designing us” and allowing biology to do its thing seem more feasible, idk.