God exists; but how?

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Hello Detales,
Checking in before leaving for Philly and noticed I glanced too quickly and attributed your last post to Greylorn. Sorry, but I will answer your last post.
And I will read the Wolfe book when I finish Cornucopia.
Thank you for the continuing discussion.
Yppop
 
MindOverMatter
Yo! Thats me.
Yes all reality has its origin in “mind”.
Yes all reality originates in mind. However; i am of the opinion that there is the mind, and then there is the eternal ideas which are the intrinsic possibilities that exist as a result of the eternal Mind; mind being the root of all possibilities. All such possibilities become actual in so far as they reflect the nature and will of that which is the eternal mind.

This is not my official belief, so don’t quote me.
although I call it infinite nothingness (the Mind of God)
There is no justified reason to call Gods mind “infinite nothingness”. What is the point of calling it that?
Much of the discussion in this forum is about the meaning of words.
I’m not surprised. When you use words such as “infinite nothingness”, it sounds as if you are saying that Gods mind is nothing. Its like a ridicule.
Just as life is a manifestation of the cellular activity induced by bios, the particle of nomos that is corpusculated in the cellular corpus; consciousness is the manifestation of the morphic activity induced by the nous.
Existence (God) is a “nature maker”, among other things. Existence doesn’t just create impressions of ideas, but rather, existence does something even more amazing; Existence creates or causes, by its mere presence, “objective meaning”.
For example, when we create something like a book about goblins, the symbolic representations that we call words have no objective meaning in themselves. We merely agree that the symbols represent our idea of a goblin.
When existence creates something, it doesn’t just represent an idea that existence has, but rather it becomes manifestly and objectively real just as existence imagined it. I truly am a person; not just in somebody’s opinion, but rather i am personal by my objective nature of being.

Existence has created two qualities. First, “Structures”, and second, the “modes of expressions” that applies to each structure. Some structures are one with their mode of expression. For example a circle is simply a circle. But there are different modes of expressions that become actual in relation to various logical structures that are not one. When certain structures are achieved, a new functional quality arises in response. However the mode of expression that is mind is not one with its structure in the same way that a circle is one with being a circle. There is instead a “relationship” between a mode of expression and a mathematical structure. Together they form the nature that is “personal”, and it can be said that they are one in the sense of their relationship. But it cannot be said that the two qualities are one and the same, like a circle is a circle. In this sense i disagree with materialism. The atoms compliment mind; but they are not mind, they remain atoms at all times and do not have knowledge by themselves, or of themselves. That which is the self, is a different and transcendent reality to that which is an atom; its a new nature in itself, which is characterized by the union of atoms to that which is transcendent. The reality that is “Knowing” is not an atom or a bunch of atoms like a circle is a circle. Being an atom and knowing an atom is two different things. By pointing at the brain i am not describing that which is self, i am only describing that which relates to the nature that is self. Mind is that which is actualized when a particular structure or pattern in nature is achieved. But it cannot be said that the pattern or structure is the cause of mind. The cause is that which exists at the root of the universe. Existence has decided that a mind ought to become actual in relation to a specific structure. So structures are never the causes of any specific nature because they receive their nature. But they are the symbolic words or representations of expressive-modes.

One example: Lets say that i have the power to create natures. If i write down the word mind, i can correctly say that the word mind represents the meaning and the quality that is “mind”. However; the nature that is mind is not the “word” mind, but rather the word is the structural representation of it; even though the meaning of the word and the descriptive symbols involved are intimately related. The meaning of the word is transcendent of the symbolic nature that describes it or actualizes it. This is how i choose to view the mind-body relationship.
 
It is even better if you are able to invite, or are graced by, an experience that leaves no doubt in your mind as to the veracity of that statement. It is evne reasoning about the possibility of such an experience, other than by death or faith, that so many on here studiously avoid. I steadfastly maintain that there is an aspect of pious faith that is yet prohylactic in the realm of Reality.

It is, again, MoM, why my Mentor said “It is not mind over matter, it is Mind instead of matter.” He was dilineating a specific understanding stemming from a specific catagory of experience which is uncommon, yet actual.

Off to a BOS meeting; more later if you wish.

Bindar Doondat, FZPC
 
I’m totally confused. To begin with, I do not know the meaning of the term, “Planck era.” Help?
Planck era = (Planck length)/(speed of light)
Try googling “Planck Era”. Here is what Wikipedia says, *“In physical cosmology, the Planck epoch (or Planck era), named after Max Planck, is the earliest period of time in the history of the universe, from zero to approximately 10 exp−43 seconds (one Planck time), during which quantum effects of gravity were significant. One could also say that it is the earliest moment in time, as the Planck time is perhaps the shortest possible interval of time, and the Planck epoch lasted only this brief instant.” *
While I’m at I should correct the error I made on the Planck length; it is approx.10 exp-35 not 10 exp-34.
Then, rereading and trying to figure out which sentence ends in what, you seem to be measuring your “s-gap” first in terms of a linear spatial dimension, later in terms of time. That doesn’t work.
I’d like to see these statements in mathematical form. That is the only way to make your meaning clear.
For example, a formal description of the relationship between c, a constant, and the s-gap, apparently a variable, is essential. Other terms are needed here, since the variable length of the s-gap cannot be a function of the speed of light, which is a constant. At least one other variable parameter is required. Give me equations.
Then it cannot be defined in terms of the Planck length, which is a constant.
I consider the s-gap to be the limiting factor on the speed of light and since I believe that the expansion of the universe can be explained as the result of the expansion of the s-gap, I contend that the speed of light is slowing down, the possibility of which has been of interest to several cosmologists (try googling “VSL theory”). There are a number of credentialed scientists that believe since the universe is expanding, many of the constants that we now measure could also be changing over cosmological time, including the speed of light. If that is true, as I believe it to be, then the Planck length is not constant over cosmological time; it depends on the inverse of speed of light to the 3/2 power. As speed of light changes so does Planck length.
Is that not an arrangement?
Motion is the appearance of the change in the arrangement of s-points from of s-frame to the next. Take a look and ponder John Conway’s Game of Life to see how the incrementation of arrangements of discrete elements appears as continuous motion. There are plenty of examples on the internet. Google “animation” of “flip books” for examples. Or go to :
bitstorm.org/gameoflife/
It is essential to the understanding of my thesis to grasp the concept of continuous motion being created by the iteration of static arrangements whether it’s scenes on frames of a movie film; pixels on a TV or computer screen; or s-frames consisting of discrete s-points.
I confess to being unable to comprehend the meaning of your last sentence. I am a slow learner, and must develop an understanding of complex ideas from the ground up. My previous questions must be answered in a way I can understand before I will have any chance of comprehending ideas which seem to depend upon them.
All I meant to say is don’t spend too much time trying to figure out the arrangements of s-points. Each s-frame consists of an arrangement of s-points that is manifested as the entire cosmos including everything within it. That, of course, is far beyond anyone’s imagination, but that is what I believe underlies the world that we experience. The important thing for me is that the s-points that are the substance of all material forms aare themselves immersed in a substance I call nomos which has the property of continuous space. The change in configuration (or arrangement if you prefer) of the s-points and the incrementation to the next s-frame is impelled by what I call the holonomic mechanism.
YPPOP
–continued–
 
GL
I believe that you have a conceptual understanding in your own mind which is clear to you. It is difficult to convey complex ideas on such a subject without a mathematical description. Putting your ideas in those terms is essential. Trying to explain them in English has not been helpful to me and is unlikely to effectively convey your understanding to anyone else, I believe.
From private communications I know that I am not alone here. Perhaps if I understood the mathematical basis for your ideas, I could help clarify them for others. I’ve had some practice doing that for my own theories.
If a mathematical description is what you require before you achieve understanding, I am afraid you will never get there because there is no way to describe what I am presenting mathematically. I contend that at the implicate level the operative framework is algorithmic not mathematical. At the explicate level the manifested phenomena, for the most part, can be described with mathematical equations, which indicates that they are part of the controlling algorithm that drives reality. I’ve worked with a number of equations of physics to know that when applied to actual situations they are merely approximations. Most of what science gets credit for is really the work of technologists. Examples available upon request!

I am familiar with the difficulty in understanding novel concepts that utilize new terminology and new meanings to common words. I had hoped that there would be at least one person on this forum that would respond with an "Eureka, I got it!” Since I can’t seem to get you past square one, that hope is dimming. I don’t quite get your insistence on a mathematical treatment of my thesis, especially since I don’t recall running into many equations when I critiqued your rather novel concepts that applies new terminology and new meanings to common words.

YPPOP
 
As for the claim that God operates at the ground of reality, I would state that as God IS the ground of reality, as anything deemed to be an “operation” in any sense takes place in the quale of manifestation, which is yet not separate from God. In that we might have at least two of the three Persons of the Trinity.
Yes, of course God is the ground of reality. You may have caught on to the basic structure that I am describing, namely that the discrete s-points that construct objective reality in the form of an s-frame came directly from the infinite nothingness (creatio et nihilo) in which it is still immersed. However that part of the infinite nothingness (the substance or spirit of God) that is conterminous with the s-frame (nomos) is the second person of the Holy Trinity. It is in through the nomos that the thing I call the holonomic mechanism operates and thus when I say that God operates at the ground of reality I mean the Holy Spirit, which operates in “the quale of manifestation and is not separated from God (the Father)”. This, I believe, is HOW God operates at the ground of reality. The rest of my thesis describes the consequences that emerge from this dual model.
The “how” of that is Being refracted through Mind. So a study of HOW God operates at that level necessarily has to be a study carried out by plumbing the Nature of Consciousness, something not susceptible to our reasonable subject/object mode of evaluation. And especially not through English, a notoriously dualistic language, as you know from Bohm, which is incapable in its normal usage of carrying any portion of such an inquiry with accuracy. Better to go with math or Music. Or Muth. Or maybe Masic. You get the idea. Anyway, it kind of goes with the need for a “metascience.” Bon chance. I admire your perseverance.
You are probably right when you point out that plumbing the nature of consciousness has little chance of success using language, but that doesn’t prevent me from trying. And on that score I suspect our paths diverge. You are an artist and I am an engineer. Your mind, I suspect (and please correct me if I am wrong) operates without the need for thought, but rather connects, better still resonates, directly with your work. At least that is what I am extracting from K. G. Mill’s talks. For example, quote: “… the direct reception only comes, usually, to one who is able to stop thinking when speaking”. I suppose this is true of musicians, artists, artisans, bowlers, and anyone who dispenses with thought and engages the particular activity or environment (I prefer Teilhard’s term, ‘milieu’) directly and completely. I think I understand this “being one with the Allness, but don’t experience it very often, only when I am gardening. There are, fortunately, other paths to engagement of the spiritual; piety covers a lot of ground. Yes, I do believe that music, creation of art, and even building a cabinet can be a form of piety, a habitual grace, the reward of which is a feeling of peace
I admire you for attempting Cornucopia. You are seeing, as far as such a work is capable of taking you, into the mind of a master musician classed by some critics into the category of Bach, Beethoven and Mozart. It is why, if I remember correctly,
As to the “artificial dilemma,” I have hinted at it above. We habitually delve into a Unitary presentation with our derived subject/object reasoning base and expect meaningful results. Tha along with the 100-odd usual cognative errors, and the peceptual lacuna described in work relating to awareness and stage magic. The application of our even scholasitcally trained thinking only leads to confusion, misinterpretation, religion, and -isms with no Unified Field grounding. As I have been trying to promote onehre, that grounding is availabel and accesibel to those willing to make the, albeit great, effort.
Perhaps you are familiar with Korzybski’s “structural differential?” It is ultimately incomplete, but is a fine beginning visual of how we see and interpret what might be called Allness. The artificial dilemma lies in the insistence of using s/o awareness in a field where it can’t apply, by rule of the smaller being incapable of grasping the greater. Ken Wilbur addresses this in a way slightly different than M-Wollff, as do David R. Hawkins (excellent re: map of Consciousness,) The Emin Philosophy, and even L. Ron Hubbard (!) who has a “Tone scale” that approaches this area of consideration. Perhaps that area of consideration might help with your metascience.
I agree with you in general, but describe the situation of “Unified Field grounding” in different terms. I believe—and I am still wrestling with your lexicon—that what you refer to as Allness, Bohm calls the implicate order, and Teilhard calls the Divine Milieu, is what I call the cosmic s-frame. The essential characteristic of all these terms is the total interconnectivity of everything within the universe, the “glue” that is the spiritual component of reality; although Bohm would surely deny (if he were alive) that his “quantum potential” had a spiritual nature. I call my glue nomos and give IT a “physical’ interpretation by endowing IT with a spatial characteristic—continuous space which can be described mathematically. IT is the Holy Spirit. So, even though it is difficult for most persons to extract the meaning of my usage of new or even the common terms, I am making an attempt to describe HOW God exists by relating it to “physical” terms with common meanings.

Thanks for responding,
Yppop
 
“* However that part of the infinite nothingness (the substance or spirit of God) that is conterminous with the s-frame (nomos) is the second person of the Holy Trinity*”~ yppop

Yes, Yppop, this is the philosophy that I have been trying to promote on here since I arrived. You may nave not noticed, but what you are saying is thousands of years older than Christianity. It is the teaching of the Rishis, and is the fundamental of esoteric Catholicism which has been suppressed by the politics within the Church by ignorant churchmen. Welcome home! Your HUGE difficulty is in understanding therefore the necessary nature of the Son. You may never get there, but at least you have gone WAY farther than most. Kudos!

Every esoteric group, in all their homogeneity, whatever dissimilar “face” religion they might be associated with, has taught what you are saying from the beginning. What is the seeming “nothingness” to the mind is the ALLness of God/Mind/IS. Yppop, I cannot imagine doing my creative work without looking into what for all appearances is to my mind, a huge, empty, blank. Yet that blank nothingness, looked at with intent, draws forth the necessary structure surrounding my aesthetic question. I have no doubt that this is a similar experience to what you have when you contemplate the nature of “s” points. You are not simply slapping bricks together that you found on the ground. You are looking at the Ground of Being and drawing forth by the request of your inquiry those structural elements which conform to the nature of your question.

“* “… the direct reception only comes, usually, to one who is able to stop thinking when speaking”. *” Well, yes, “usually,” but I challenge you to look at your own thinking and tell me that your answers don’t come from the space/Space between your thoughts. You, my friend, only think you are thinking, and haven’t perhaps looked closely enough at your own process. The image and likeness of God is Itself, inescapably, so you and I cannot be built on different templates. Despite your protestations, I have again to remind you of Leonardo, Merriell-Wollff, and all the scientists, biologists, chemists, physicist, etc, who have had their inspiration from the Invisible. They, like you, arduously pursued a line of inquiry till their brain was absolutely saturated with it. Then, when they weren’t looking, BAM! I stood before them whole, as a piece.

The realization that happened of the carbon ring by this method is identical to the method of the koan used by Zen Buddhists. The only difference is, that instead of an intent aimed at a puzzle relative to a physical phenomenon, they inquire relative to the Ground. It has been thus for ages, as you are participating in and may be realizing. You gardener, you. (Dr. Mills actually used that analogy.) But you are doing it of yourself, an amazing feat by any standard.

As far as language and terms, I completely agree. It is, again, why I recommended Merrell-Wollff’s engineering psyche to you first. And this is where the “face” religions/beliefs/languages are superficially at odds with each other. There can be no such conflict at the fundamental/esoteric level. This is why so much of the work we are doing is in bringing the language of mind into alignment with the Ideas of the Mind/Ground/Being. It is an arduous work. Again, I have nothing but the greatest admiration for what you are doing!

(I wonder if you know of David R Hawking?)
 
Yes all reality originates in mind. However; i am of the opinion that there is the mind, and then there is the eternal ideas which are the intrinsic possibilities that exist as a result of the eternal Mind; mind being the root of all possibilities. All such possibilities become actual in so far as they reflect the nature and will of that which is the eternal mind.
Care to define mind?
There is no justified reason to call Gods mind “infinite nothingness”. What is the point of calling it that?
Seems to me like a good way to explain “Creatio et nihilo”.
I’m not surprised. When you use words such as “infinite nothingness”, it sounds as if you are saying that Gods mind is nothing. Its like a ridicule.
It may sound like ridicule; but if you read my earlier posts more carefully, you would know what I “MEAN” by infinite nothingness. Could be wrong but I thought I defined it very specifically. When you get to my definition of “mind” you will see that I believe the mind is composed of two components: the spiritual part that I call nous, and a material part which I call “the language instinct”, which is the neuronal circuitry of the brain that takes part in language skills.

If you read your next paragraph and replace your “Existence” with my “Infinite Nothingness” the meaning will not change very much. Words are superfluous; isn’t that what you were saying in your paragraph? Now if you agree with me on that, ask yourself which of the two expressions would cause the most ambiguity? You see “Existence” would not fit nicely in my thesis since I define infinite nothingness as the spirit (substance) of God, and then distribute it throughout the universe as nomos. Then when matter reaches a threshold of complexity and corpusculates through abiogenesis, it encapsulates a particle of the infinite nothingness I call bios, becomes a cell and lives. Later cells diversify and multiply until another threshold of complexity occurs and multicellular organisms are created. When morphogenesis occurs, the organisms also corpusculate and encapsulate a particle of infinite nothingness called nous. Later still, God creates a multicellular with a language skill, which combines with the nous to become the mind and the first man appears. By defining the spiritual component of reality in “physical” terms and then using it as the basis for life, body, mind, and eventually soul, I have built comprehensiveness into my model. I don’t believe that I could use a word like “Existence” in the same way among the various levels of organization that matter takes on its path of complexity.

The rest of your post is a commentary of your ideas about actualization, an idea that I believe we share and may even utilize the same terminology. Later in my thesis when I get to creation I will talk about the realms of Possibilty (God), Actuality (the world); and Probability (creation, and the mind of man). God is all things possible; He introduced probability into the creation of Actuality; and creted mind to introduce probability into the creation of rational reality (the noosphere). But I am getting ahead of myself, so I will sign off here.

Thank you for your comments,
Yppop
 
Post #104 — reply 1 of 2.

GL
If a mathematical description is what you require before you achieve understanding, I am afraid you will never get there because there is no way to describe what I am presenting mathematically.
That means I’ll need to drop out of this conversation. It would be absurd to attempt to contribute to a conversation which I don’t understand, as other posters demonstrate. I drop out with regrets and apologies, recalling that I earlier advised you privately to publish your ideas.
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I contend that at the implicate level the operative framework is algorithmic not mathematical.
Since I’ve made my living for the last 50 years writing computer code, I’d be delighted to receive a suitably detailed algorithm by way of answer to any of my questions. I find algorithms a perfectly comfortable way of conveying information.

Of course, we both realize that an algorithm differs from a mathematical expression in that it describes a particular problem solving technique, and lacks the power of a descriptive equation. To be useful, an algorithm must solve a problem or show how to answer a question.

Perhaps you could offer an algorithm which answers my questions and describes the relationship between s-points and light speed.

There are still some inconsistencies in your verbal descriptions which I’d like to see clarified. I’ve already expressed these.

You’ve stated that there is a relationship between the distance between s-points and the speed of light. I’ve asked you for the other factors which are required to flesh out that relationship. You’ve ignored that question.

Had Einstein simply declared that there is a relationship between the energy in a photon and its wavelength, he’d have been ignored. This is your theory. It is your job to fill in any blanks in its explanation. It is not the job of readers to decipher your meaning from unclear and often contradictory statements. .

If you are satisfied with the followers you’ve found, you can ignore the blanks. Don’t fill any of them in. Ignore my questions. Your followers haven’t a clue about what you are saying anyhow (if you think otherwise, post a 10-question quiz) and could not distinguish between an algorithm and an alligator, IMLTHO. .
At the explicate level the manifested phenomena, for the most part, can be described with mathematical equations, which indicates that they are part of the controlling algorithm that drives reality.
Great. Then, where are the “explicate level” equations?

I’ve never heard of equations which are part of any algorithm. In my experience, algorithms are derived from equations on the few occasions when that is necessary. I’ve written hundreds of algorithms and never found an equation in the middle of any.

A few sentences earlier you stated that you cannot describe your ideas in mathematical forms. Here you say that some of them can be described. How am I to make any sense of this mix of demurrals and contradictory assertions? The upshot is, no equations. My result: no possible understanding, and a lessening of belief that you ultimately have ideas worth any struggle to understand.
I’ve worked with a number of equations of physics to know that when applied to actual situations they are merely approximations. Most of what science gets credit for is really the work of technologists. Examples available upon request!
No need to provide examples. I used to work at NASA, as a contractor. But I think that you misinterpret the relationship between science and technology. Scientists are like religionists, making up theories and espousing them based upon whatever agreement they might receive from their fellows. Their ideas, like those of any other group of humans, would immediately revert to dogma (they often have) without the assistance of engineers— and by that I do not mean guys with more degrees— I mean guys who say, “Hey, if this equation actually means what it says, I can use it to build a bridge or a bomb or a toaster and make a few bucks.”

Engineers sometimes come up with scientific principles, which really gets the attention of scientists but not in a happy way. Curiously, when I stated as much on my website, you denied my assertion. The Laws of Thermodynamics were not devised by scientists, but rather by engineers, who have subsequently been adopted into the scientific community. Scientists play politics better than do engineers.

And have you forgotten that the man who figured out relativity theory and a few other interesting ideas was a patent office clerk, not a scientist? The “scientist” label was tacked on after the fact. As best that I can determine, after officially becoming a scientist and getting a nice teaching job, Al’s contributions dead-ended.

Continued…
 
Post #104 — reply 2 of 2

I am familiar with the difficulty in understanding novel concepts that utilize new terminology and new meanings to common words. I had hoped that there would be at least one person on this forum that would respond with an "Eureka, I got it!”
You have Detales, etc.

As for expecting approval, the best I can say is keep your day job and your friends. A good way to keep both is to never share metaphysical concepts. I’ve been promoting my “brilliant metaphysical schemes” to wives, friends, co-workers, offspring, and the neighborhood garbage man for a half-century and have yet to receive anything except disagreement. Buying any of them lunch or a new house doesn’t help.

I’ve spent many years and pretty much killed my life trying to develop ideas and find a way to express them. Making up ideas and offering a hand-waving expression is easy. That’s the first step. Millions of cranks and crackpots do that. Getting the kinks out of good ideas and throwing out bad ones when someone makes it clear how bad they are is the next step. Then you have to find a way to express your ideas so that people will understand them. This is extremely difficult.

I’ve given you more support in these aspects of your project in a few months than I’ve received in 50 years for mine. But you’re not listening, not moving, and not answering questions.

So get used to rejection. Stop whining. Cultivate guys like Detales.
Since I can’t seem to get you past square one, that hope is dimming. I don’t quite get your insistence on a mathematical treatment of my thesis, especially since I don’t recall running into many equations when I critiqued your rather novel concepts that applies new terminology and new meanings to common words.
You have some valid and perhaps not-so-valid points.

I’ve been conscientious on my site about restricting commonly used words to their common meanings, despite my ignorance of Greek and Latin which would facilitate the development of original words. I have used “miracle” in a far more restrictive sense than it is normally used, but still within the sense of the word. (Most writers adopting common language to their own ends broaden or distort the original meaning. I only restrict it to the narrowest possible sense of the original meaning.) Moreover, my use of “miracle” in that restrictive sense is marked by capitalization or an adjective.

I have supplied a new word to stand for my redefinition of soul. That seems legitimate. It is a simple word, and clearly defined.

I’m not insisting upon a mathematical treatment of your concepts. Any treatment which leads me to an unambiguous understanding of your ideas will suffice.

Although page 5 of my website is riddled with equations, you observe correctly that I have yet to use mathematical forms to express my ideas. It has not seemed necessary or appropriate to do so. You’ve apparently understood my concepts well enough to disagree with them, as expressed.

In unpublished material I’ll use these ideas to solve some interesting physics problems, and this will probably require math beyond my level of proficiency. I’ll hire a mathematician.

My complaint is that I simply have been unable to understand your ideas as expressed. When I ask questions, you ignore them or put them off. That gets frustrating.

In the course of reviewing my site you pointed out a number of minor glitches, plus one really egregious error. You were absolutely right. I’ve since corrected the glitches and the horrid error, and I thank you for the clarity of mind and clear logic which helped me out.

But when I complain about your describing s-points in terms of length, then later on in terms of time, and then mucking around with the Planck constant and speed of light to make your ideas work, and finally, instead of explaining anything, you tell me not worry overmuch, I find myself inclined to say what a publishing house editor wisely told me 40-some years ago. “Your book is not quite ready for publication.”

As best I could summarize my understanding, you and I have taken different paths to a a shared goal. You, and other religious or mystical philosophers want to reconcile science and religion by smearing scientific jargon onto mystical concepts and adding more mystical jargon. This has been done. Gary Zukav, etc. I want to reconcile science and religion by discarding every mystical concept shared by each. Not been done.

From what you’ve written thus far, it appears that you are in the rough draft stage of theory development and not yet ready to do the serious grunt work necessary to put it all together. Whether or not you will do that is up to you and depends upon your personal goals.

So far,you and I are but two of countless people who’ve taken a stab at putting God and science on the same page. This is an unrewarding job, I promise. So far, you and I are sharing the crackpot stage, meaning that outside a few followers in your case and none whatsoever in mine, no one would give a quarter for a signed copy of our pamphlets.

I really appreciate your assistance, and regret that we cannot find a common ground that would allow me to return your generous favor. Nonetheless, I wish you the very best on your own quest for understanding.

Finally, it is obvious that you are proposing a digitized universe, and in that respect I believe that you are on a relevant track. I have long believed in the value of digitization and my own universe concepts will use the same words, but applied to a different parameter set.

My very best regards,
 
Hello GL
That means I’ll need to drop out of this conversation.
Promises, promises!
I’d be delighted to receive a suitably detailed algorithm by way of answer to any of my questions. I find algorithms a perfectly comfortable way of conveying information.
Apparently you didn’t get the idea that reality is run algorithmically at the implicate level and the designer of that algorithm is God. What do you expect of me?
To be useful, an algorithm must solve a problem or show how to answer a question.Perhaps you could offer an algorithm which answers my questions and describes the relationship between s-points and light speed.
Algorithms, as you surely know, are what drive computers and software designers have created some very realistic simulations of reality (games, movies). It is not too much of a mental stretch to transform the simulations that are available on computers to the ground of reality where I contend that a cosmic algorithm (God’s) determines the configuration of all the s-points (an s-frame) and implements the incrementation to the next s-frame to create reality. You don’t need an algorithm to describe the relationship between s-points (you mean s-gaps) and light speed. The relationship between the speed of light and the s-gap is a simple equation.
You’ve stated that there is a relationship between the distance between s-points and the speed of light. I’ve asked you for the other factors which are required to flesh out that relationship. You’ve ignored that question.
You asked questions regarding the s-gap in posts 32, 38, 84, 89, and 108. I’ve answered each and every one of them in posts 33, 43, 85, 103, and this one. I am sorry if my answers didn’t satisfy you. I can’t believe that my explanation in regard to the s-gap and its expansion is so abstruse that it can’t be understood; I have several grandchildren that understand it perfectly.
This is your theory. It is your job to fill in any blanks in its explanation. It is not the job of readers to decipher your meaning from unclear and often contradictory statements.
Give me one contradictory statement that I’ve made.
If you are satisfied with the followers you’ve found, you can ignore the blanks. Don’t fill any of them in. Ignore my questions. Your followers haven’t a clue about what you are saying anyhow (if you think otherwise, post a 10-question quiz) and could not distinguish between an algorithm and an alligator, IMLTHO.
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By your own admission, you too would fail such a 10-question quiz. Does that mean you don’t know the difference between an algorithm and an alligator?
Great. Then, where are the “explicate level” equations?
This convinces me that you don’t understand the idea that God is running reality algorithmically at an implicate level; then when science observes the resulting phenomena at the explicate level, such observations often can be described by a mathematical equation.
I’ve never heard of equations which are part of any algorithm. In my experience, algorithms are derived from equations on the few occasions when that is necessary. I’ve written hundreds of algorithms and never found an equation in the middle of any.
Most computational algorithms involve equations. Haven’t you ever seen an equal sign in an algorithm. “X=2”; “let n=y” are equations. Modern programming languages usually provide predefined functions for many common computations, such as random number generation, logarithms, exponentiation, and trig functions. However, none of this has to do with the basic idea I am trying to convey: at the ground of reality (the implicate level) the displacement of s-points from one s-frame to the next are governed algorithmically just as the pixels on a computer screen are governed algorithmically to produce simulations of reality. In real life, when scientists observe the motion that results from the displacements of s-points, they find definitive relationships that can be expressed mathematically.
A few sentences earlier you stated that you cannot describe your ideas in mathematical forms. Here you say that some of them can be described. How am I to make any sense of this mix of demurrals and contradictory assertions? The upshot is, no equations. My result: no possible understanding, and a lessening of belief that you ultimately have ideas worth any struggle to understand.
Apparently, you haven’t grasped the difference between the implicate and the explicate levels of reality. I agree that you should give up the struggle if a set of ideas is beyond your capability to understand them.

-continued-
 
continued from previous post
But I think that you misinterpret the relationship between science and technology. Engineers sometimes come up with scientific principles, which really gets the attention of scientists but not in a happy way. Curiously, when I stated as much on my website, you denied my assertion. The Laws of Thermodynamics were not devised by scientists, but rather by engineers, who have subsequently been adopted into the scientific community. Scientists play politics better than do engineers.
. I can only answer this in the same way as I did when you stated on your website that, “No fewer than six men living in five different countries, (Thomson, Carnot, Mayer, Joule, Helmholtz, and Colding) were involved in the understanding of heat as a form of energy. None of them were scientists. Working independently, they each discovered the equivalence of heat and mechanical energy”. I replied: Mayer and Joule were the first to recognize the mechanical equivalent of heat; Colding probably knew of Joule’s work and later acknowledged Mayer and Joule’s work; Thomson was Joule’s advocate and worked closely by mail; Helmholtz was known more for the conservation of energy; Carnot preceded the mechanical equivalent concept by two decades, he was known for the heat cycles of engines. Thomson and Joule were British; Mayer and Helmholtz were German. They all were scientists.
And have you forgotten that the man who figured out relativity theory and a few other interesting ideas was a patent office clerk, not a scientist?
Let me see if I get this: Einstein was working in the Swiss patent office so that made him nothing but a clerk even though he published 5 original papers in physics, one of which earned him the Nobel Prize. He had a scientific degree a, published 5 scientific papers and still was not a scientist. But then again, according to your reckoning, neither was Thomson, Carnot, Mayer, Joule, Helmholtz, and Colding?
The “scientist” label was tacked on after the fact. As best that I can determine, after officially becoming a scientist and getting a nice teaching job, Al’s contributions dead-ended.
Not quite. He earned his doctorate in 1905 and began as a professor at Zurich in 1909. He published the General Theory of Relativity in 1916; so he did have a major accomplishment after he was “officially” a scientist and a professor. After that you might say his contributions dead-ended; he spent the rest of his life looking for a unified field theory manipulating mathematical formulations instead of relying on developing his thoughts on physical principles as he did previously.

YPPOP
 
I’ve given you more support in these aspects of your project in a few months than I’ve received in 50 years for mine. But you’re not listening, not moving, and not answering questions. So get used to rejection. Stop whining. Cultivate guys like Detales.
I am at a great loss to find just what support you think you have given me. I haven’t seen any great attempt on your part to extract meaning from what I am saying, certainly not like the critique I did for your theory. Please read again my two private messages to you and see if you could find: any negativity or condescension. You accuse me of ignoring questions; of contradictions; of whining; whereas. I endeavored to understand your theory, did an analysis of contradictions and errors and made positive suggestions for you to make corrections. Your comments have been of little help. (is this what you mean by whining?)
My complaint is that I simply have been unable to understand your ideas as expressed. When I ask questions, you ignore them or put them off. That gets frustrating.
You asked questions regarding the s-gap in posts 32, 38, 84, 89, and 108. I’ve answered each and every one of them in posts 33, 43, 85, 103, and this one. I went through all of your posts and ascertained that I have answered everyone of your questions. In fact I try very hard not to ignore a single post (however, dull or annoying) on this thread.
In the course of reviewing my site you pointed out a number of minor glitches, plus one really egregious error. You were absolutely right. I’ve since corrected the glitches and the horrid error, and I thank you for the clarity of mind and clear logic which helped me out.
But when I complain about your describing s-points in terms of length, then later on in terms of time, and then mucking around with the Planck constant and speed of light to make your ideas work, and finally, instead of explaining anything, you tell me not worry overmuch, I find myself inclined to say what a publishing house editor wisely told me 40-some years ago. “Your book is not quite ready for publication.”
I’ve already answered the s-gap question three different ways and I get no indication from you that you have really attempted to understand the issue. I should have bailed out when you expressed unfamiliarity with the term “Planck era”. I went through all my posts and couldn’t find where you think I describe s-points in terms of length and then in terms of time. First of all, I think you mean s-gaps? The only statement that you may be misinterpreting is this: “Since I attribute the expansion of the universe to the expansion of the distance between s-points, I don’t believe that the s-gap is constant over time.” How much effort would it have taken you to understand that I believe that the s-gap is a length that varies in time?

Also, I think you are confusing the Planck length with the Planck constant. I don’t believe I’ve mentioned the Planck constant anywhere in this thread. Incidentally, the Planck length is a function of the Planck constant (h), the gravitational constant (G), (the one you confused with the acceleration of gravity (g), and the speed of light (c).
As best I could summarize my understanding, you and I have taken different paths to a a shared goal. You, and other religious or mystical philosophers want to reconcile science and religion by smearing scientific jargon onto mystical concepts and adding more mystical jargon. This has been done. Gary Zukav, etc. I want to reconcile science and religion by discarding every mystical concept shared by each. Not been done.
How do you propose reconciling science and religion without dealing with what you call “mystical concepts”? Which of my ideas is mystical? Do you mean, for example, when I create nomos, that has the properties of continuous space and can be described mathematically then equated nomos to the Holy Spirit, I am being mystical? I think I am grounding a religious concept (the Holy Spirit) in a physical concept (space).
From what you’ve written thus far, it appears that you are in the rough draft stage of theory development and not yet ready to do the serious grunt work necessary to put it all together. Whether or not you will do that is up to you and depends upon your personal goals.
Come on Greylorn, condescension is not going to advance your ideas one iota. For your information, my theory is complete, my thesis is well under way, and my book has legs. I don’t expect it to ever be published, I am not doing it for that; I am doing it solely for the satisfaction of creating a thesis that is comprehensive and answers all of my own questions including: How God exists within our reality?

Let me end by saying that I truly despise the tone I took in this post, normally I stay within the bounds of impersonal discussion, but your condescension made me sound like an ungrateful, uninformed child. I apologize to all of you that read this post for straying from my original intent.

Detales I will comment on your last post later.

YPPOP
 
I present for discussion a thesis based on the premise: God exists. Given that premise, the question then becomes: How does God exist?
How does God exist? As Spirit in His Absolute Perfection of Being. He is existence itself - not caused or derived.
 
Now for your questions:

*1. Does this way of seeing reality add any clarity to any current problems scientists are working on? *
Yes, my thesis can offer an explanation of some of the observations often referred to as quantum weirdness; for example: non-locality, entanglement, the double slit dilemma, and the complimentary principle. Unfortunately, I don’t have time to explain (this is my busy season with family, vacations, and yard work), but if anyone wants a specific explanation about any one of them, let me know and I will try to find the time.
Whenever you have the time, I would love to hear how you explain any of the above with your theory. Materialists seem to write off the wierdness as simple gaps in our ability to measure accurately. I have read that the whole wave-particle problem doesn’t really exist, that electrons are both wave and particle but we just cannot measure them simultaneously to account for both their natures, and that the unpredictable behavior of particles is not really unpredictable, just not able to measured by us in advance at our current level of knowledge. I’ve read elsewhere that electrons are really particles and that their behavior is reliably predicted even as they’re behaving like waves. I’m not sure I’m even accurately portraying what I’ve read, but that’s my understanding right now.

Have you read this book by Victor Stenger, Quantum Gods: Creation, Chaos, and the Search for Cosmic Consciousness? If you have, I’d love to know what you made of it, if anything.
 
How does God exist? As Spirit in His Absolute Perfection of Being. He is existence itself - not caused or derived.
I believe that what you wrote is true; however, we believers are engaged in an intellectual contest for the minds of humanity with materialists such as Victor Stenger. Materialists invoke, whenever they can, the power of science to advance their arguments. Science is a difficult weapon to argue against. What I am doing is attempting to relate God to the “physical” nature of reality at a deeper implicate level than the explicate level that science describes without contradicting any of science’s theories. In my thesis, God is neither caused nor derived. You refer to God as pure existence; I refer to the transcendent God (the Father) as infinite nothingness. There were a number of respondents early on in this thread who challenged my use of “Infinite Nothingness” instead of the “God is Existence” concept. More recently MindOverMatter brought the topic up again in post #100. I answered him in post #107. You might want to read it.

Thank you for your comments.
Yppop
 
Whenever you have the time, I would love to hear how you explain any of the above with your theory. Materialists seem to write off the wierdness as simple gaps in our ability to measure accurately. I have read that the whole wave-particle problem doesn’t really exist, that electrons are both wave and particle but we just cannot measure them simultaneously to account for both their natures, and that the unpredictable behavior of particles is not really unpredictable, just not able to measured by us in advance at our current level of knowledge. I’ve read elsewhere that electrons are really particles and that their behavior is reliably predicted even as they’re behaving like waves. I’m not sure I’m even accurately portraying what I’ve read, but that’s my understanding right now.

Have you read this book by Victor Stenger, Quantum Gods: Creation, Chaos, and the Search for Cosmic Consciousness? If you have, I’d love to know what you made of it, if anything.
Hello HMT

You referred to a book I haven’t read. I looked up and realized that the book, Quantum Gods, and its author, Victor Stenger, are one of the reasons I developed a hypothesis that explains how God might exist in our world. The author’s argument apparently is that science can prove that God does not exist. Normally, I won’t read the other side, but I will read this one. I have a couple of books I want to finish first, but I will get back to you when I do read it.

Scientific description of reality is fragmented in both space and time. There is no unified field theory and it takes many distinct theories to describe creation from the Big Bang to the Theory of Evolution. In addition, new observations keep popping up that are not explained by the current theories, among which are the so-called quantum weirdness, dark matter and dark energy, and questions which I have never seen asked let alone answered. For example, if the universe is expanding because space is expanding and not because galaxies are moving away from one another through space, then what is the mechanism that causes space to move matter (the galaxies)? Or, if photons have no mass or charge, then how does an electron “know’ that the photon with which it just collided came from another electron or a proton? And how about biology? It is a field awash in mysteries of animal behavior. It is my contention that all of natural phenomena can eventually be explained on the basis of a single physical principle. I cannot say for certain what that physical principle is, but I am certain than when it is discovered that it will emerge from the ground of reality and it will include a spiritual component. Based on those contentions, I developed a model of dual reality based on the physical principle of discrete space immersed in infinite nothingness. My intent was to show how God might be part of our reality, but the model had the added capacity for explaining
several unexplained scientific questions. It is not my intent to do “science”; I’ve spent enough time trying to explain my assertion that the speed of light is related to the s-gap. However I did make the claim so let me give you one example.

The dual nature of light has always been an enigma, which was given new emphasis the double slit experiment. Niels Bohr addressed the problem with the complementary principle, which states that light cannot be both a wave and a particle at the same time, but which depends on how we set up the experiment to observe it. Now consider what I claim happens at the implicate level:

At any instant, the universe consists of a static configuration (arrangement) of discrete points (s-points); I call it a cosmic s-frame. Through a process I call the holonomic mechanism, the s-frame is incremented to a subsequent s-frame which has been reconfigured. Because of the displacement of the s-points from their previous position, the incrementation appears at the explicate level as motion of matter (kinetic energy) and the motion of discrete space (radiant energy). The duration between increments I speculate is equal to the Planck era— the time between the singularity and the first time that science can determine mathematically = 10[sup]-43[/sup]. This means that the s-frame increments 10[sup]43[/sup] times a second. Now it seems to me that in any second a beam of light changes constantly from particle to wave. In other words light is alternating between particle and wave in time. I suppose one could figure out how many alternations can occur in a second by manipulating the quantum mechanical equations; this is not within the scope of my thesis. I am merely speculating about physical principles; of more interest to me are the consequences of the spiritual component part of the model and how infinite nothingness/nomos/bios/nous impacts on our lives. I hope this gives you some idea of how I would explain scientific concepts by mapping them into the physical principal of discrete space. I make no claim beyond that the explanations are speculative. If you have any other questions along that line feel free to ask.

Thank you for your interest. Yppop
 
*1. If physical space has at all a real existence it is not necessary for it to be continuous; many of its properties would remain the same even if it were discontinuous. And if we knew for certain that physical space was discontinuous there would be nothing to prevent us, in case we were so desired, from filling up its gaps, in thought, and thus making it continuous; this filling up would consist in a creation of new point-individuals and would have to be effected in accordance with the above principle. (of continuity) (Richard Dedekind - World of Mathematics, pg 530)

You are filling up your gap by “thoughts”. Time is continuous. Space is “physically” presenced as well as you. Time cannot be “discontinuous”. You cannot stop time without imagination. Time is “continuous”. You and the space is physically presenced.*
  1. Nevertheless, there are some intriguing hints that this particular universe may in fact be a discrete digital universe, not a continuous analog universe the way most people would expect.
    In fact these ideas actually go back to Democritus, who argues that matter must be discrete, and to Zeno, who even had the audacity to suggest that continuous space and time were self-contradictory impossibilities.
    Through the years I’ve noticed many times, as an armchair physicist, places where physical calculations diverge to infinity at extremely small distances. Physicists are adept at not asking the wrong question, one that gives an infinite answer. But, I’m a mathematician, and each time I ’ wonder if Nature wasn’t really trying to tell us something, that the real numbers and continuity are a sham, and that infinitesimal small distances do not exist! – (Gregor Chaitin - Meta Math, The Quest For Omega – pg. 91)
Universe cannot be digital (not in Matrix). You may convert it into digital if you know maths. You may be capable to sustitue by formula. Time has no “minds”. “Contradictory” is only a term to describe yourselves.

Answers can be “Infinity”. It equals to “Zero”. “Zero” is “Infinity.” After all, their answer is “Zero”. Some regard “Zero” as “Nothing”. They prefer to give you answer of “Infinity” instead of “Nothing”.
  1. Reality cannot be found except in One single source, because of the interconnection of all things with one another. (Leibniz, 1670)
Reality is hard. Truth is one. (I said, “One does not want you to be here, but he is the only one. I must say.”) Interconnections come from the same origin. Your method is one way to find out the truth, but the truth is only one. It is intercconncting with all subjects in the world.
  1. We are a part of Nature as a whole whose order we follow. (Spinoza - Ethics, 1673)
Yes. You are living inside, but you try to sperate from them.
  1. …man’s general way of thinking of the totality, i.e. his general world view, is crucial for overall order of the human mind itself. If he thinks of the totality as constituted as independent fragments, then that is how his mind will tend to operate, but if he can include everything coherently and harmoniously in an overall whole that is undivided, unbroken and without border (for every border is a division or break) then his mind will tend to move in a similar way, and from this will flow an orderly action within the whole. (David Bohm - Wholeness and the Implicate Order, 1980)
Fragments belongs to the whole. They are partially sperated, but they are a part of the whole. “Minds” are inside, try to control it, vice versa.
  1. “What we observe as material bodies and forces are nothing but shapes and variations in the structure of space. Particles are just appearances.” (Erwin Schroedinger - Life and Thought,1989)
You are made of particles.
  1. “ But if the ultimate model for the universe is to be as simple as possible, then it seems much more plausible that both space and its contents should somehow be made of the same stuff—so that in a sense space becomes the only thing in the universe.” ( Stephen Wolfram - A new Kind of Science, pg. 474)
I have heard one said, “Simple is beauty.” What is the phrase"sense space" referring to? I can still try to answer you. The ultimate model is inside this planet and yourselves. We all come from same origin, brothers.

8.“The world of explicate structures and sequential processes in time, which has been studied by science over the last centuries, now turns out to be a manifestation of a deeper, enfolded order that constantly sustains them.” (David Peat - Synchronicity, pg. 185)

Time is different from physical presence. They are two concepts. Please do not mess it up.
Yppop
Thank you very much for your ideas.

I am pleased to answer you in a PHILOSOPHY board.​

Philosophy, I must say.

*“Space” is not going to tell.
“Space” is not going to tear.
“Space” is not going to hear.

Speak with words of emptinesses make you mad.
Cried with tears of fearnesses make you down.
Heard with sounds of silence make you wake.

I am going to wake you up.
I am going to make you cry.
I am going to force you say.

He asked, “How come? I am leaving my walls.”
“You are going nowhere. I am everywhere?”
He cried, “Oh my God.”
“Boys, God will always be with you.”, I answered with tears in my eyes.

“He has closed the gate.”
“I will not let anyone leave.”, I said.
“You have my words.”

“I am not going to fight you.”, he shouted on the wall.
“The walls are protecting us.”
I said, “They are. Now I am the one to close the gate.”*
 
Hello Mr. kk23wong,

I believe something was lost in translation. If you look again at my original post, you will see that you are commenting on the 8 citations I used to show that my premise that reality based on discrete space is not original nor without previous consideration by highly credential scientists.
  1. Richard Dedekind was one of the great mathematicians of the 19[sup]th[/sup] century. He defined continuity by defining the real number line in terms of rational numbers.
  2. Gregory Chaitlin is a mathematician who is an expert in algorithmic information theory and is credited with defining the “Halting problem”.
  3. Gottfried Leibniz is the great philosopher/scientist/mathematician who was the co-inventor of calculus
  4. Baruch Spinoza is of course the great 17[sup]th[/sup] century Rationalist Philosopher
  5. David Bohm was the noted physicist, and collaborator of Einstein at Princeton, who attempted to build determinism into quantum mechanics
  6. Erwin Schroedinger was one of the founders of quantum mechanics. He derived the famous Schroedinger Wave Equation
  7. Stephen Wolfram is a Physicist and author of the book, “A New Kind of Science”.
  8. David Peat is a Physicist and author of “Synchronicity: The Bridge Between Matter and Mind”
Don’t close the gate.
Yppop
 
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