God exists; but how?

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YP

I’ve been developing my own theory for fifty years, and it too is flawed. But 49 years ago I decided to answer those who questioned my genius.
:confused:
If it’s any consolation, my book is nearly finished but I can’t find a publisher or agent who’ll believe how wonderful it is. So for both of us, let’s just get it done. I promise to ignore you until you address my questions.

Finally, I thank you very much for the contributions you’ve given me by pointing out flaws in my own material. If you send me your address, you’ll get a first edition of my book. Or your heirs will.
Sounds very interesting:thumbsup:. Its good that you like writing books on philosophical matters. Remember; even if the book doesn’t turn out as you’ve hoped, it doesn’t mean that you will not be making a meaningful contribution to philosophy. I also want to write a book; and i am impressed that you have nearly finished yours. I hope yours goes well.

I know you was not addressing me in your post, but i would like to see your book.🙂

Peace.
 
:confused:

Sounds very interesting:thumbsup:. Its good that you like writing books on philosophical matters. Remember; even if the book doesn’t turn out as you’ve hoped, it doesn’t mean that you will not be making a meaningful contribution to philosophy. I also want to write a book; and i am impressed that you have nearly finished yours. I hope yours goes well.

I know you was not addressing me in your post, but i would like to see your book.🙂

Peace.
Thank you. I’ll announce its publication in CAF if allowed to do so, and provided I’ve not been granted an infinite suspension beforehand. If you’d like a personal notification, send me the pertinent information via private mail. If you’d like an autographed copy, I’d like a bottle of aged Courvoisier.

For the record, I don’t like to write books on philosophy or anything else. But no one else seems willing to clean up the horrid mess resulting from the science vs. religion squabble, so I might as well. Believe me, I rather be dancing, because on the dance floor there is some agreement and balance.

Don’t hold your breath until publication. Three difficult chapters remain unfinished, and I’ve yet to find a publisher. Last time I was published the delay between contract and printed book was about six months. So while you’re waiting, don’t twiddle your thumbs— start writing the book you spoke of. Be prepared to spend some time with it. (I discard at least 95% of everything I write.) While the CAF is a great court for kicking ideas around, for a book you’ll need a theme.
Good luck!
 
… 49 years ago I decided to answer those who questioned my genius.
Do you know of anyone who has ever called themselves a “genuis” other than you?

Genius (plural genii or geniuses[1]) refers to a person, a body of work, or a singular achievement of surpassing excellence. More than just originality, creativity, or intelligence, genius is associated with achievement of insight which has transformational power.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genius

Personally, I think you might need a reality check. Saying you are a genius does not make it so. Everything I have been able to understand from what you have written has led me to believe that you have a Pantheistic understanding about God … as if God would not exist if the the Universe did not exist. I assert the PROPOSITION that If the Universe did not exist, God would still exist. God IS even if the Universe IS NOT.

I assert this truth based on personal “Posteriori” knowledge.

A priori knowledge or justification is independent of experience (for example ‘All bachelors are unmarried’); a posteriori knowledge or justification is dependent on experience or empirical evidence
 
Do you know of anyone who has ever called themselves a “genuis” other than you?

Genius (plural genii or geniuses[1]) refers to a person, a body of work, or a singular achievement of surpassing excellence. More than just originality, creativity, or intelligence, genius is associated with achievement of insight which has transformational power.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genius

Personally, I think you might need a reality check. Saying you are a genius does not make it so. Everything I have been able to understand from what you have written has led me to believe that you have a Pantheistic understanding about God … as if God would not exist if the the Universe did not exist. I assert the PROPOSITION that If the Universe did not exist, God would still exist. God IS even if the Universe IS NOT.

I assert this truth based on personal “Posteriori” knowledge.

A priori knowledge or justification is independent of experience (for example ‘All bachelors are unmarried’); a posteriori knowledge or justification is dependent on experience or empirical evidence
I apologize for confusing you. I was being facetious, as MindOverMatter figured out.

By the way, the word is spelled, g e n i u s. “Genuis” is not yet a word.

Incidentally, I pretty much agree with your assertions, at least as expressed above. I consider the universe to be the creation of God, but I take a somewhat divergent step by formally proposing (not here, of course) that He created the universe to insure His own survival. I acknowledge that this is not standard Catholic fare, and would never invite you to evaluate such an assertion without first understanding the detailed background.

My ideas about the nature and purposes of God are different from yours, I freely admit. If they were the same, we’d be talking about the weekend football scores. I accept your differences and understand them, because your beliefs are those which I once would have given my life for. Now, I’m stuck giving it up for whatever ideas I can invent that help me believe in a created universe, engineered by however many creators it takes to do the job, so long as they do not get blamed for creating me.

I got it that you don’t approve of Pantheism, but I’ll bet that you believe in angels. So think about it. Back at creation-time, there’s a heavenfull of extraordinary powerful and intelligent entities sitting on their figurative behinds watching God do everything. No wonder some of them rebelled!

You’re competent at a variety of things. Imagine how you’d feel if the government forced you to retire and do nothing, made you sit around and watch while it did everything its way, giving you neither say nor participation. If you think you’d really like that, you’ll come back next lifetime in Afghanistan, as a woman. . .

I acknowledge that your Bible teaches otherwise, but logically, what’s wrong with God giving his angels the big picture of how he wanted the universe to look, then giving the project to them, to build? In this image of Creation, God is the architect who lays out the general plans. Following His design, engineers figure out how to implement the plans. But I’ve never known an architect or engineer to show up on a building site with riveting gun or shovel in hand. Never heard of one spending the rest of his days patrolling the building, watching out that the biffies are all flushing properly, either.

It’s a different concept, but is it illogical, or beyond our understanding of what makes sense?
 
You’ll notice I put all my responses into one for you Greylorn.
By the way, the word is spelled, g e n i u s. “Genuis” is not yet a word.
Thank you for correcting me on the spelling.
Incidentally, I pretty much agree with your assertions, at least as expressed above. I consider the universe to be the creation of God, but I take a somewhat divergent step by formally proposing (not here, of course) that He created the universe to insure His own survival. I acknowledge that this is not standard Catholic fare, and would never invite you to evaluate such an assertion without first understanding the detailed background.

My ideas about the nature and purposes of God are different from yours, I freely admit. If they were the same, we’d be talking about the weekend football scores. I accept your differences and understand them, because your beliefs are those which I once would have given my life for. Now, I’m stuck giving it up for whatever ideas I can invent that help me believe in a created universe, engineered by however many creators it takes to do the job, so long as they do not get blamed for creating me.
I note your sense of humor in the last sentence.
I got it that you don’t approve of Pantheism, but I’ll bet that you believe in angels. So think about it. Back at creation-time, there’s a heavenfull of extraordinary powerful and intelligent entities sitting on their figurative behinds watching God do everything. No wonder some of them rebelled!
You’re right I don’t approve of Pantheism and yes I do believe in Angels. The Angels were created by God as well and have “contingent” existence. The only uncreated reality is God who does not have “contingent” existence. God simply IS.

You say the Angels rebelled because they got to watch God do everything while they sat on their behind? I find this assertion on one hand absolutely ridiculous and on the other hand quite profound and astute. I’ll explain later.
You’re competent at a variety of things. Imagine how you’d feel if the government forced you to retire and do nothing, made you sit around and watch while it did everything its way, giving you neither say nor participation. If you think you’d really like that, you’ll come back next lifetime in Afghanistan, as a woman. . .
Please don’t get me started too much on politics. I do not align myself with any political party. I am an Independent that tries to focus on the issues and determine which of the candidates are the “lesser of two evils”. The United States only has a “quasi” Democracy whereby whoever has the most money – has the loudest voice and influence in Congress. If Americans think we live in a real Democracy, they are sadly mistaken. Just look at the Healthcare debate. It’s all about who is going to control the medical dollars and corporate interests are not about to give up this golden goose.

I think ALL enemy combatants held at Guantanomo Bay should have a trial conducted ONLY by women. Women judges, women lawyers, women guards, etc … LOL
**What’s wrong with God giving his angels the big picture of how he wanted the universe to look, then giving the project to them, to build? **
Suppose just for a second that what you said really did happen – that God REALLY did give the Angels the BIG picture of what He wanted the universe to look like. Now just imagine if in that picture it included God Himself becoming a human being … the Author of Life walking onto the stage as a human being. The “Incarnation” - the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity becoming a human being and born as a baby in a stable among animals in a stall. Now again just imagine for a second the Angels REALLY were given a glimpse at this “project” God wanted to build – and this project included the “Incarnation”.

It is childish silliness to think the Angels rebelled just because they got bored watching God do everything. I think it is entirely possible these fallen Angels really did get to SEE what God intended and was building. This project included the INCARNATION. These Angels could not for whatever reason put themselves at the service of a human being or the human race for that matter. These Angels thought of themselves so highly, it was beyond them to willing serve a human being – a human being who was God Himself “disguised” as just a human being. I do accept the possibility that some of the Angels could not bend their knee in humility and respect for the Architect Himself living as a human being among the human race.

This is not my original thinking but rather one that was proposed as a possibility by St. Thomas Aquinas (I think) for why the Angels rebelled.
But I’ve never known an architect or engineer to show up on a building site with riveting gun or shovel in hand. Never heard of one spending the rest of his days patrolling the building, watching out that the biffies are all flushing properly, either.
Regarding never knowing “an architect or engineer showing up on a building site with a riveting gun or shovel i hand” - I find that comment right to the central point. It takes us again right back to the Incarnation.

If you are able to consider for one brief moment the possibility that God somehow really did become a human being - why would God want to do that? God definitely has a project, but He is not a dictator. He does not impose His will on us. His project involves each of us consenting to His plan out of love.
 
Dear Greylorn,

I admire your desire to get answers to your questions and know the truth.

There was one thing you said in an earlier reply of yours that I forgot to reply to - **Your proposition that God created the universe for His survival. ** I can tell you from my own mystical experience which I have mentioned to you before in other threads, that God DID NOT create the universe for His survival. This illumination I was given over 30 years ago is a truth I was given and would give my life for because of how precious it is to me. It is my life boat. It casts light on every other truth. God SIMPLY IS. God has no need for anything or anyone. God could have continued in BEING for all eternity without ever creating ANYTHING or ANYONE. I experienced this. I knew the only reason I existed was because God wanted me, otherwise I wouldn’t exist. I had a direct experience of GRACE. Before this experience I could have given you a text book explanation of what Grace is. But until I had this experience of Grace, I can tell you now looking backwards that I didn’t know what Grace is. Now I do.

I do not deserve to exist. You do not deserve to exist. The universe does not even deserve to exist. Anything that has existence, it is because it is a gift of God which is freely given and not deserved. Existence is a sheer Gift. The Universe need not exist. I can’t underscore this enough, God did not need or lack anything and did not have to create anything as if there was a need or something lacking in God. That is why I know your PROPOSITION is false from the start. God created the world because He chose to - but not because He needed to. God is perfect and does not lack anything. God definitely has a plan and is working on His project. Just as the Uncle Sam poster says “I want you” … God wants you too Greylorn. I know this with all my mind and heart.

This understanding of Grace is based on a direct “posteriori” experience and now has seered into my soul, like a branded cow … lol … I could no more give up this truth than I could my own skin.
 
Dear Greylorn,

I admire your desire to get answers to your questions and know the truth.

There was one thing you said in an earlier reply of yours that I forgot to reply to - **Your proposition that God created the universe for His survival. ** I can tell you from my own mystical experience which I have mentioned to you before in other threads, that God DID NOT create the universe for His survival. This illumination I was given over 30 years ago is a truth I was given and would give my life for because of how precious it is to me. It is my life boat. It casts light on every other truth. God SIMPLY IS. God has no need for anything or anyone. God could have continued in BEING for all eternity without ever creating ANYTHING or ANYONE. I experienced this. I knew the only reason I existed was because God wanted me, otherwise I wouldn’t exist. I had a direct experience of GRACE. Before this experience I could have given you a text book explanation of what Grace is. But until I had this experience of Grace, I can tell you now looking backwards that I didn’t know what Grace is. Now I do.

I do not deserve to exist. You do not deserve to exist. The universe does not even deserve to exist. Anything that has existence, it is because it is a gift of God which is freely given and not deserved. Existence is a sheer Gift. The Universe need not exist. I can’t underscore this enough, God did not need or lack anything and did not have to create anything as if there was a need or something lacking in God. That is why I know your PROPOSITION is false from the start. God created the world because He chose to - but not because He needed to. God is perfect and does not lack anything. God definitely has a plan and is working on His project. Just as the Uncle Sam poster says “I want you” … God wants you too Greylorn. I know this with all my mind and heart.

This understanding based on a direct “posteriori knowledge” is seered into my soul, like a cattle that has been branded.
What superb testimony! Even if it weren’t a posteriori knowledge - which it is - it is the only adequate, reasonable explanation of our existence as free, rational, creative beings with the capacity for love and spiritual development…
 
What superb testimony! Even if it weren’t a posteriori knowledge - which it is - it is the only adequate, reasonable explanation of our existence as free, rational, creative beings with the capacity for love and spiritual development…
Tony and J.Kiernan,

I’d like to address both your thoughts at once.

I appreciate your belief. However, you do realize that many people do not, and throughout history have not found the traditional God-concept an adquate explanation for the existence of the universe and man. What is reasonable to you is not reasonable to many highly intelligent individuals who have given these questions their best attention. And, if it was reasonable to me, I’d not be asking questions and proposing ideas here on CAF.

I know that everyone thinks differently and does different things with the information they have, but I’m one of those people who, when certain about some knowledge, am content with putting that knowledge to the best use I can find for it. I do not bother questioning it further unless some information comes to light which casts doubt upon its validity.

That is how I came to undertake my life work, which is to answer the fundamental questions about the nature of and purpose of man, and of the universe. Once a devout Catholic, entering a university determined not to take a single philosophy class (I’d been warned about how those insidious professors use sneaky arguments to trick gullible students out of their faith.) I studied physics, EE, math, safe subjects whose professors kept about the business of teaching the laws God devised to govern His universe.

My professors met my expectations. There was not a word said in any of my undergraduate courses about God’s relationship to creation. And it didn’t need to be. There on page 400 or thereabouts of this fat physics textbook was the First Law of Thermodynamics. Subsequent pages explained its implications. Bottom line and equation-free for the layman: Energy cannot be created or destroyed.

The Law did not have any exemptions, such as, “…except by almighty God.”

I fussed with this obvious contradiction to my belief that God created everything for quite a while, and I tried my best to discuss it with men smarter and better educated than me. It was years before I found a professor willing to actually discuss the issue, and I’ve yet to find a theologian who would venture past a reiteration of the same dogma I’d learned in first grade. Only a few fellow students would even take the issue seriously.

It is pretty clear that the Christian definition of God is contradictory to the First Law of Thermodynamics. Spare me any foolish work-arounds like, “God created a fixed quantity of energy and then declared the First Law.” If God can create something He can destroy it, or create more of it, in which case the First Law is invalid.

Therefore, while I respect your belief in God, you have no objective grounds to declare those beliefs to be rational— unless you can resolve the energy conservation law.without resorting to the usual tactics, redefining words, etc. It’s okay, really, to just have a belief. The belief does not have to be “rational.” Most of what people think is rational is just a lot of made-up nonsense anyway.

JK— I’ve had my own personal experiences, and they have guided me on my peculiar path. Mine were obviously of a different nature and quality than yours. I do not know their origin, but am as certain that it was neither God nor Satan as you are of your certainties. Out of my work and experience thus far, I’ve realized that I can ill afford beliefs of any sort. Yet I keep one. It is that mankind needs to find a God concept which actually is rational. To me, that means more than obfuscating the issue by wrapping lots of words around it. Rational means not only perfectly consistent with the laws of physics and logic, but capable of explaining some of the discoveries which science so far cannot. (Dark energy, abiogenesis, consciousness (and its absense).)

So, JK, keep your beliefs. Do not read anything else I write, and especially do not read my book when it is published. You have no need of my ideas. The only point in addressing me at all might to explain why, with such firm and fervent beliefs, you are wasting time on a philosophy site instead of getting out in the world and teaching your beliefs to young people who would value such religious honesty. The smarter ones are skeptical of the dogma, but you could offer them something far beyond that.

And Tony, keep your beliefs, but please accept them for what they are: beliefs. They are not adequate and are not rational, and in my opinion, claiming otherwise is much of what gives religion a bad name.

As you know by now, I’m not an atheist. Their pseudo-scientific beliefs are not rational or adequate either, Darwinism or neo-Darwinism does not explain squat. The Big Bang theory is an event without a cause, originated by a something which science has declared to be inexplicable by its own standards. When it comes down to fundamental ideas about the beginnings, there is no science---- just a bunch of believers spouting arcane equations which are unrelated to the issue, or Darwinists still mistaking a tautology for an explanation.

Please do not stoop to their level. Honor your beliefs, as beliefs.
 
If God can create something He can destroy it, or create more of it, in which case the First Law is invalid.
Why, yes, it is – technically speaking – invalid, if Christianity is true. But that does not invalidate it for the purposes of prediction and measurement. God doesn’t seem to make a habit of creating and destroying things.

I’m curious, though: why would you consider the First Law of Thermodynamics – which is an *inductive inference *-- axiomatically true? What distinguishes your claim to knowledge here from a falsifiable “belief”?
It’s okay, really, to just have a belief. The belief does not have to be “rational.” Most of what people think is rational is just a lot of made-up nonsense anyway.
I agree. Your apparent belief that certain inductive inferences yield absolute knowledge is one such belief. I wouldn’t call it irrational, but I wouldn’t call belief in Christianity irrational either. Perhaps they are both arational: they are not contradicted by rationality, but they are not entailed by it, either.
Honor your beliefs, as beliefs.
Ditto. 🙂
 
Energy cannot be created or destroyed.

The Law did not have any exemptions, such as, “…except by almighty God.”
It is pretty clear that the Christian definition of God is contradictory to the First Law of Thermodynamics.

Spare me any foolish work-arounds like, “God created a fixed quantity of energy and then declared the First Law.” If God can create something He can destroy it, or create more of it, in which case the First Law is invalid.

So, JK, keep your beliefs
Greylorn, I’m sure you agree with me that a person’s beliefs do not make something true. It is because a person thinks something is true that they believe it and not conversely. Christianity is not a mindless religion.

Over 30 years ago I was granted a mystical experience that would be suicidal for me to abandon. I wholeheartedly trust my experience. It is because I think what I experienced IS TRUE that I believe it and not the other way around.

What I have come to conclude is that you have a misunderstanding of the First Law of Thermodynamics - that Energy cannot be created or destroyed. I am beginning to wonder if you equate Energy to God in a very closed system.

You state that **The Law did not have any exemptions, such as, “…except by almighty God.” **

Lets just suppose for second, that the exception was put into the formula. How would the scientific community reacted? In other words, physics by definition CANNOT have anything to do with the divine. But does that automatically negate the reality beyond the physical? You throw out the possibility because the Law did not include that in it?

Now honestly you should know that physics DOES NOT delve into anything beyond the Physical Universe. This is the realm of metaphysics. Physics is limited to the Universe - it cannot and does not take into consideration other possible reality OUTSIDE (above and beyond) the Universe. And just because PHYSICS deals only with the Physical Universe, it is a fallacy to limit oneself that there is NO OTHER REALITY beyond the physical universe. You have limited yourself to Physics. Your stance on Physics and the First Law of Thermodynamics puts you in a position where you have shut out ALL other possible realities. You have limited yourself to the physical. But just because YOU limited yourself to the physical DOES NOT and SHOULD NOT automatically EXCLUDE THE POSSIBILTIES of other reality OUTSIDE THE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE. It is called SPIRITUAL REALITY.

You have made the Physical Universe your science lab. The First Law of Thermodynamics only had meaning IN CONTEXT with the Physical Universe. Now how do you know that the Physical Universe is all that there is? Because of the First Law of Thermodynamics? The Physical Universe points to the First Law … and the First Law points to the Physical Universe. So what have you then? A club of two who agree with each other. But where does the Physical Universe and the Law of Thermodynamics implicitly state that no OTHER reality exists? It can’t. It can only speak for itself.

Physics can only explain the WHAT of existence. It cannot explain the WHY of existence.

My reference point comes from the experience I have mentioned over and over. There is ONLY one reality that has to exist - GOD. God simply IS. There is no “reason” for God. There is nothing “causing” God. God simply IS. God need not have created the Universe. The only reason it exists is because God CHOSE to create it. He continues to will its existence. All the energy in the universe would cease to exist, if God stopped willing it. The only reason I exist is because I know I am directly willed by God. I know this is true in my bones.
 
Greylorn,

Can you prove by science that you have a soul, that spiritual reality exists?

And if just because you cannot prove it by science, does that then automatically mean that it does not exist?

The Physical Universe and the First Law of Thermodynamics can only speak for itself. It cannot speak for spiritual reality. But just because it can’t, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. But that is exactly where I see you are. You have accepted that the Physical Universe is all there is because of the Law of Thermodynamics. That means there is now a club of three - the Universe, the Law of Thermodynamics, and now you Greylorn.

That is a position I call “having your head up your butt so far that you can’t see the sunshine”.
 
Why, yes, it is – technically speaking – invalid, if Christianity is true. But that does not invalidate it for the purposes of prediction and measurement. God doesn’t seem to make a habit of creating and destroying things.

I’m curious, though: why would you consider the First Law of Thermodynamics – which is an *inductive inference *-- axiomatically true? What distinguishes your claim to knowledge here from a falsifiable “belief”?
Reply 1 of 2.

Nothing quantifiable. And, I’ve made no claim to knowledge. Kindly tolerate an explanation, since you did ask.

When I originally confronted the conflict between my Catholic beliefs and the science of physics, I assumed that I was dealing with a conflict between belief and certainty. After working in the physical sciences and engaging anyone with a mind who would discuss this subject-set (and some without minds) I learned that science itself is riddled with and dependent upon beliefs of its own.

If I knew then what I do now, I’d not be regretting now the choices I made then. But I made them nonetheless and have long ago decided to own them, big time, on the tiny chance that while muddling through my personal search for fundamental understanding, I might have discovered things of use to others, or, having failed to do so heretofore, might yet.

In the course of studying physics I learned to distinguish between various kinds of laws. Some were elegant and simple. (Newton’s Laws, Maxwell’s equations, Special Relativity, and Einstein’s Nobel winning elucidation of the relationship between lightwaves and quantum mechanics.) Most of the rest of physics leaves me cold, especially QM. Even Hawking’s equation describing the balance of forces within the universe struck me as an ugly form, uncharacteristic of the classical universe I’d learned to love in my early studies.

And I have nothing good to say about the interpretations of the quantum mechanicians. They’ve proven better than anyone how extraordinarily intelligent individuals can adopt absurd beliefs.

And physics, like every other aspect of science, is permeated with beliefs. This is not the place to name them because no one here is interested. The science I once cherished as a young man has become, like the Republic founded in the late 18th century, a thing horribly changed and rotting from within.

You only need to watch History Channel pseudo-science to witness the former, or listen to our president or his wife to see the latter.

My ideas are derived from the elegant beliefs of physics and the classic beliefs of religion. I’ve cherry picked ideas. For example,

The Laws of Thermodynamics are clean, simple, and functional. They work. For me, that counts for a lot. Likewise the laws of mechanics and electrodynamics. All these laws work. They are all dependent upon thermodynamics, so if it was wrong, so are they.

I have a cherished friend who is a devout Catholic. She contributes her time, energy, and money to her Church. She is a Eucharistic Minister. She loves people. Actually, she loves all living things, and is currently sacrificing her life for her dog. She is one of the few genuinely devout, non-sanctimonious Catholics I’ve known, a truly good-hearted, agenda-free woman. And she has lived in constant physical agony for the last ten years. She never prays for herself. I do. For every prayer I offer, the universe dumps another load of poo upon her head. The almighty God she worships has done zip.

Bottom line: The only thing her beliefs do for her is to keep her in misery, on the expectation that at the end of it there will be some vague reward. For the most favorable, logical analysis of the reward, read Mark Twain’s “Captain Stormfield’s Trip to Heaven.” By my standards, her beliefs do not work.

I’m not basing that opinion upon simple current standards or upon belief in a one-shot life. I study lots of stuff. For practice, I do past-life work. My perspective on these issues is not confined to either conventional science or conventional religion.

So, my beliefs are fairly pragmatic. I am fond of ideas that work, and which make logical sense. Not “rational” sense. Anyone can warp words around idiotic concepts and convince someone of their “rationality.” Why bother?

I would prefer not to believe in a Creator or the human soul. If I was choosing my beliefs based upon personal preference, I’d be an atheistic Democrat— steal as much as possible from the people who actually contribute, spend it all on myself, then die and go away forever.

My beliefs include the idea of a created universe, which requires a creator. I have chosen not to believe in an omnipotent/omniscient creator because such concepts are illogical. In place of a catch-all God, I’ve chosen a logic-limited and extremely capable creator.

My creator is a good engineer. This means that He finds simple, elegant solutions to problems. I view the simple laws of physics (aforementioned) as those solutions which we’ve finally caught onto. I view the kludge laws of physics and science, (QM, the “Standard Model,”, Darwinism) as nonsense which we’ve invented because we have not been smart enough to sort through the trash data and find the elegant simplicity.;
 
I agree. Your apparent belief that certain inductive inferences yield absolute knowledge is one such belief. I wouldn’t call it irrational, but I wouldn’t call belief in Christianity irrational either. Perhaps they are both arational: they are not contradicted by rationality, but they are not entailed by it, either.
I do not believe that “certain inductive inferences yield absolute knowledge,” because I neglected to take my stupid pill this morning. If you want to put one of your pills in my mouth, try it later, maybe tomorrow.

It is not that I do not believe in such a thing as “absolute knowledge,” which I’m guessing is your catchphrase for “absolute truth.” There are such things. But humans are pretty stupid, and I figure that any one of them who spouts “absolute truth,” or whatever, is just a jerk with maybe some charisma trying to make a few bucks from fools, or merely control the entire U.S. .

If you ever find me laying claim to such absurd nonsense as absolute truth, I’ll give you my address and the GPS coordinates for an oak stump a quarter-mile away in which a large bore firearm is concealed. .

I find certain tidbits of apparent knowledge particularly appealing. I adore the concept of a Creator, and Thermodynamics gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling, especially in the dead of winter when I’m outside bucking another cord of firewood.

Religions, including the one into which I was born, have taken some basic concepts and made more of them then they deserve. The science I once revered has done the same. I reserve the right to cherry pick the few ideas from each, which make both common and esoteric sense, and derive my understanding of the universe therefrom.

Christianity remains a rationalizable set of beliefs, but is farther from rationality than Darwinism, which is just another set of raitionalizable beliefs. Inherently, those beliefs and all other belief systems, with the exception of classical Buddhism (in which no modern Buddhist believes) are irrational.

Irrational does not necessarily mean wrong. It is possible that a belief system might be correct, but that the intellectual explanations for it are incorrect. This has happened before, and is well documented (but not publicized) in the annals of physics and astronomy.

Checking into the historical record, it is evident that all human civilizations have held irrational (and incorrect) beliefs about the fundamental beginnings of things, which these same civilizations accepted as absolute truth. We are no different.

Our commonly held ideas about the fundamental beginnings of things, whether scientific or religious, are in contradiction with experimental evidence and common knowledge. The position you expressed in this post, which may or not be your real position, is one of those equivocal intellectual stances which I disrespect, because it can be held without courage, like a foxhole fifty miles from a firefight. Your posterior is always covered. You’ll never be found wrong because you’ve not made a full commitment to any belief system, and you can safely say to St. Peter, “I never made a serious intellectual mistake.” Bring along a copy of Matthew 25:26-30.

I declare that Christianity, Darwinism, and Big Bang theory are equally irrational. I am prepared to defend and expand upon that position using evidence from science and common human experience. For those of you who might see this as some sort of insult, kindly note that human beings are not rational, and that being irrational is not like being evil. It is more like being human.
 
Greylorn, I’m sure you agree with me that a person’s beliefs do not make something true. It is because a person thinks something is true that they believe it and not conversely. Christianity is not a mindless religion.

Over 30 years ago I was granted a mystical experience that would be suicidal for me to abandon. I wholeheartedly trust my experience. It is because I think what I experienced IS TRUE that I believe it and not the other way around.

What I have come to conclude is that you have a misunderstanding of the First Law of Thermodynamics - that Energy cannot be created or destroyed. I am beginning to wonder if you equate Energy to God in a very closed system.

You state that **The Law did not have any exemptions, such as, “…except by almighty God.” **

Lets just suppose for second, that the exception was put into the formula. How would the scientific community reacted? In other words, physics by definition CANNOT have anything to do with the divine. But does that automatically negate the reality beyond the physical? You throw out the possibility because the Law did not include that in it?

Now honestly you should know that physics DOES NOT delve into anything beyond the Physical Universe. This is the realm of metaphysics. Physics is limited to the Universe - it cannot and does not take into consideration other possible reality OUTSIDE (above and beyond) the Universe. And just because PHYSICS deals only with the Physical Universe, it is a fallacy to limit oneself that there is NO OTHER REALITY beyond the physical universe. You have limited yourself to Physics. Your stance on Physics and the First Law of Thermodynamics puts you in a position where you have shut out ALL other possible realities. You have limited yourself to the physical. But just because YOU limited yourself to the physical DOES NOT and SHOULD NOT automatically EXCLUDE THE POSSIBILTIES of other reality OUTSIDE THE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE. It is called SPIRITUAL REALITY.

You have made the Physical Universe your science lab. The First Law of Thermodynamics only had meaning IN CONTEXT with the Physical Universe. Now how do you know that the Physical Universe is all that there is? Because of the First Law of Thermodynamics? The Physical Universe points to the First Law … and the First Law points to the Physical Universe. So what have you then? A club of two who agree with each other. But where does the Physical Universe and the Law of Thermodynamics implicitly state that no OTHER reality exists? It can’t. It can only speak for itself.

Physics can only explain the WHAT of existence. It cannot explain the WHY of existence.

My reference point comes from the experience I have mentioned over and over. There is ONLY one reality that has to exist - GOD. God simply IS. There is no “reason” for God. There is nothing “causing” God. God simply IS. God need not have created the Universe. The only reason it exists is because God CHOSE to create it. He continues to will its existence. All the energy in the universe would cease to exist, if God stopped willing it. The only reason I exist is because I know I am directly willed by God. I know this is true in my bones.
JK,
While I appreciated your earlier post, because it came from your heart-level mind, this one is, IMO, worthless. You’ve done a superb job of demonstrating that you either cannot read, or cannot distill useful concepts from that which you’ve read.

Otherwise you would know that I include everything available in my beliefs and ideas— physics, common sense experience, spirituality. There is no point in my addressing you further, so I will not. In turn, I would appreciate it you would find a cozy spot on the CAF where you can share your beliefs with believers. Your ideas should be shared freely with other believers, but why are you bothering to proselytize in a philosophical quadrant?

Like I suggested before, if you truly believed your ideas, you’d be out in the real world teaching them to individuals who might value them. Instead, here you are, blowing off the gift which God has given you, the gift of genuine insight, trying to convince someone who has given honest thought to the subject, that YOU are right.

You are not sufficiently educated, clever, insightful, or whatever to do that. So go away and please honor your God by doing something for which you are suitably qualified. That is to teach, to uneducated but needful young people, your experiences and the beliefs you have derived therefrom.

Good bye. And, good luck!
 
JK,
While I appreciated your earlier post, because it came from your heart-level mind, this one is, IMO, worthless. You’ve done a superb job of demonstrating that you either cannot read, or cannot distill useful concepts from that which you’ve read.

Otherwise you would know that I include everything available in my beliefs and ideas— physics, common sense experience, spirituality. There is no point in my addressing you further, so I will not. In turn, I would appreciate it you would find a cozy spot on the CAF where you can share your beliefs with believers. Your ideas should be shared freely with other believers, but why are you bothering to proselytize in a philosophical quadrant?

Like I suggested before, if you truly believed your ideas, you’d be out in the real world teaching them to individuals who might value them. Instead, here you are, blowing off the gift which God has given you, the gift of genuine insight, trying to convince someone who has given honest thought to the subject, that YOU are right.

You are not sufficiently educated, clever, insightful, or whatever to do that. So go away and please honor your God by doing something for which you are suitably qualified. That is to teach, to uneducated but needful young people, your experiences and the beliefs you have derived therefrom.

Good bye. And, good luck!
I will defend the dogmas of the Catholic faith because I believe THEY ARE TRUE. My belief does not make them true. This is a Catholic Forum. I suggest it is you who need to find a more suitable place to propigate your ideas. But should you decide to post your fallacies on a Catholic site, then be prepared for Catholics like myself to dispute them and make sure others know where you are in error.

Good luck to you as well. Goodbye? That remains to be seen depending on how you continue to post your ideas on a Catholic web site.
 
My ideas are derived from the elegant beliefs of physics and the classic beliefs of religion. I’ve cherry picked ideas.
Perhaps not the best way to get at truth, but I find your honesty refreshing. 😉
I have a cherished friend who is a devout Catholic. She contributes her time, energy, and money to her Church. She is a Eucharistic Minister. She loves people. Actually, she loves all living things, and is currently sacrificing her life for her dog. She is one of the few genuinely devout, non-sanctimonious Catholics I’ve known, a truly good-hearted, agenda-free woman. And she has lived in constant physical agony for the last ten years. She never prays for herself. I do. For every prayer I offer, the universe dumps another load of poo upon her head. The almighty God she worships has done zip.
She wouldn’t say so.
Bottom line: The only thing her beliefs do for her is to keep her in misery, on the expectation that at the end of it there will be some vague reward.
If she thinks of the Kingdom of God as something far off and “in the future”, then perhaps you are right. But I imagine she thinks of the Kingdom of God as something she can live in now, though not in its fullness. This is hope. I myself have experienced enough sacrifice and hope to realize that they deep, meaningful experiences. I would not, even for perfect freedom from suffering, give them up.
So, my beliefs are fairly pragmatic. I am fond of ideas that work, and which make logical sense. Not “rational” sense. Anyone can warp words around idiotic concepts and convince someone of their “rationality.” Why bother?
I tend to agree with your distinction here between logical and rational. We cannot spend our lives molding our beliefs around other people’s expectations.
My beliefs include the idea of a created universe, which requires a creator. I have chosen not to believe in an omnipotent/omniscient creator because such concepts are illogical. In place of a catch-all God, I’ve chosen a logic-limited and extremely capable creator.
I didn’t know we could choose our creators. 🤷
I do not believe that “certain inductive inferences yield absolute knowledge,” because I neglected to take my stupid pill this morning.
It was very easy to misunderstand what you said, though, if you look back at it. Consider: “It is pretty clear that the Christian definition of God is contradictory to the First Law of Thermodynamics.” My immediate question, on reading that, was: OK, so why do we know the First Law is true? Most people would respond by saying it has been proven experimentally, which is what I took your position to be. But this position leads to no contradiction with a Christian God, and that was my point.

Now that I see that you have *chosen *to believe in the First Law, your position makes more sense. But, if your creator created the First Law, are you saying that this creator had the power to create something he could not curtail?
I find certain tidbits of apparent knowledge particularly appealing. I adore the concept of a Creator, and Thermodynamics gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling, especially in the dead of winter when I’m outside bucking another cord of firewood.
🙂
Our commonly held ideas about the fundamental beginnings of things, whether scientific or religious, are in contradiction with experimental evidence and common knowledge. The position you expressed in this post, which may or not be your real position, is one of those equivocal intellectual stances which I disrespect, because it can be held without courage, like a foxhole fifty miles from a firefight. Your posterior is always covered. You’ll never be found wrong because you’ve not made a full commitment to any belief system, and you can safely say to St. Peter, “I never made a serious intellectual mistake.” Bring along a copy of Matthew 25:26-30.
I’m quite puzzled by your statements here. What I said was that Christianity was not entailed by rationality. It *is *entailed by the fact that God avails himself of a relationship with us. It is not our minds that leads our hearts to Christ, but rather our hearts that lead our minds to Christ. Theism, however, may very well be entailed by rationality.

One of the worst heresies, in my estimation, is intellectualism.
For those of you who might see this as some sort of insult, kindly note that human beings are not rational, and that being irrational is not like being evil. It is more like being human.
Agreed, to a point. But how do we have any idea of being rational then? Or do we?
 
Now that I see that you have *chosen *to believe in the First Law, your position makes more sense. But, if your creator created the First Law, are you saying that this creator had the power to create something he could not curtail?
I think he might be saying that the creator he believes in didn’t necessarily create the First Law, but that the First Law is uncreated, meaning existed wherever any form of energy was. As a natural property, maybe. It does leave the question of where the energy came from in the first place, though.

As far as creating something that He could not curtail, it reminds me of riding a bike downhill and not being able to brake well enough to avoid a fall. You started something you thought would have one outcome, but it got away from you. Why could it not be this way with God as well? The initial laws took on a bit of a life of their own and continued to build on them, sort of like computer programs that can “learn” when parameters are put into them. There are ways to tweak the program after the fact but change too much and it might be destroyed

I don’t know if I find the omnipotent, omniscient God concept more, or less, comforting, but I am really interested in hearing a purely non-religious, non-philosophical reason to believe that either is a necessary characteristic that we must believe God has.
 
Perhaps not the best way to get at truth, but I find your honesty refreshing.
Son–
I in turn find your rejoinder refreshing. My blood pressure dropped 5 ticks as soon as I read it. You reply in the true spirit of philosophy, without a single declaration of absolute truth— just thoughts, opinions and reasons, straight up. But enough shmoozing.

I’ll break this up into 2 or 3 sections to keep the material accessible to any readers with short attention spans.

Cherry picking is as good a way to find truth as it is to get delicious cherries. It’s simple discrimination. For example, physics offers a wide range of theories to explain the exact same phenomena. Why should I choose phlogiston theory over thermodynamics to explain heat transfer? A true scientist would say, “because it works better.” Not a true scientist, I’m allowed to say, “Because the Three Laws of Thermodynamics are so elegant, so beautifully simple that I am attracted to them intellectually.” Nevermind that the interval between my first reading them and “final” understanding was about twenty years. And, yes, incidentally, they work!

Out of this brief conversation I’ve just derived what I shall call, “Greylorn’s First Law of Metaphysics.” It is: Treasure highest those laws of science which are so simple that there is no need to inscribe them on one’s forearm before the exam."

Cherry picking applies to religious ideas as nicely. I had no trouble accepting the idea of a Creator. I was raised to believe in God, of course, but when it came time to determine which ideas from those given me by my various teachers to accept or discard, it was easy and natural to keep the idea of a Creator, for I had always seen intelligence at work in every aspect (but one) of the world I had learned about, So I kept the idea of a creator. However, I could not figure out why any entity smart enough to create a universe and a planet full of complex critters would create me, or most of the people on this planet. So, unable to see any point to the creation of man, I declined to blame God for the worst component of that particular project, namely the “soul.”

This proved so much simpler than trying to explain why God would have created the darned thing.

I simply accepted those properties of God which made sense and rejected those which did not. I’m curious that you find this an inefficient way to arrive at truth. Do you think that choosing illogical ideas and beliefs which do not correlate well with commonplace evidence is a better way?

This simple technique is called, “philosophical engineering,” should anyone ask. I did not invent it. I simply borrowed it from engineering school.
 
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greylorn:
… For every prayer I offer, the universe dumps another load of poo upon her head. The almighty God she worships has done zip.
She wouldn’t say so.
You are absolutely correct. She would not, and does not. She just suffers and prays for others.
If she thinks of the Kingdom of God as something far off and “in the future”, then perhaps you are right. But I imagine she thinks of the Kingdom of God as something she can live in now, though not in its fullness. This is hope. I myself have experienced enough sacrifice and hope to realize that they deep, meaningful experiences. I would not, even for perfect freedom from suffering, give them up.
In my well considered opinion, knowing that she accepts the traditional Catholic belief in an afterlife, and from our discussions, she at least expects to be released from pain after her death, and not to have to return to experience yet another stinking life.

Hope is the last refuge of the futile. A modicum of hope that I am not absolutely futile has kept me on planet.

I theorize that we can only grow from experiences,and that each lifetime can only accommodate a few “meaningful” experiences. According to my theories, you will need a few more lifetimes, and will probably receive them.
 
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