God Exists says Science!

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Science is not an independent entity that speaks on behalf of itself and almighty God is outside the realm of scientific thought anyway. Nothing proved or disproved here.
I don’t think the title of this thread should be attributed to Fr. Spitzer.I believe the title of the program was 'Proofs of God’s Existence." Spitzer’s position is that much in contemporary physics bolsters belief in God. And he makes clear science can’t DISPROVE the existence of God.

The Church holds that we can know through reason alone there is a God. This is important.
 
This necessitates a transcendent (to all physical reality) reality capable of this event of causing the universe or physical reality to pop into existence from a state of absolute nothingness. At the very least it’s a scientific proof of a reality completely beyond and independent of physical reality.
Wrong. If you are trying to make us cry in frustration…well…you succeed:crying:

Science, as a method, is intrinsically agnostic to anything that cannot be described in physical terms.

There is no such thing as a scientific proof of a “necessary” reality beyond the physical. Its meaningless to suggest that science can prove that such is the case, not to mention that the claim itself is unfalsifiable and empirically unmeasurable in any physical sense whatsoever.

This does not mean of course that you are mistaken about the existence of a transcendent reality; its just that you are using the wrong tool to justify the claim.

You are making a purely logical inference; not a scientific inference.
 
Wrong. If you are trying to make us cry in frustration…well…you succeed:crying:

Science, as a method, is intrinsically agnostic to anything that cannot be described in physical terms.

There is no such thing as a scientific proof of a “necessary” reality beyond the physical. Its meaningless to suggest that science can prove that such is the case, not to mention that the claim itself is unfalsifiable and empirically unmeasurable in any physical sense whatsoever.

This does not mean of course that you are mistaken about the existence of a transcendent reality; its just that you are using the wrong tool to justify the claim.

You are making a purely logical inference; not a scientific inference.
Well said.
 
I’ve heard some of his radio broadcasts and it’s wonderful! Philosophy and science CAN strengthen our faith and back up religion!

So many people think that science and religion are polar opposites but in truth, science and religion are interrelated. I feel I have gotten much closer to God and am able to understand my religion more by studying science.

If you want to learn something really amazing that even scientist admit must be the work of God, read about Quantum Physics.
 
That is not the issue. Roveau points out that you make a category error.

Science can only prove something according to the scientific method, which requires study by observation and/or experiment. Science uses, by definition and by self-limitation, methodological naturalism as method, the search for natural causes to natural effects. God cannot prove or disprove God.

What you mean is that Spitzer offers philosophical proofs from science. This is different from proof by science proper.

BTW, I say all this as a scientist myself (a biochemist).

If one of Spitzer’s arguments is the apparent fine-tuning of the laws of nature, I agree with that. It is a strong argument for those who actually think it through, in my view. But again, this is not a scientific argument, but a philosophical argument from the findings of science.
Right, I was just poking a little fun at those scientists who say " you know who " doesn’t exist. 👍
 
Science, physics and mathematics in particular, proves a creation event-that’s the point being made here. An absolute beginning of all phyisical reality pops into existence from nothing. That’s what the BVG theorem proved in 2003 that Fr refers to, which has yet to be challenged in any way in physics. The singularity is a proof that a boundary exists at the beginning of the universe prior to which there is an absolute nothingness or non-existence of the physical reality. This necessitates a transcendent (to all physical reality) reality capable of this event of causing the universe or physical reality to pop into existence from a state of absolute nothingness. At the very least it’s a scientific proof of a reality completely beyond and independent of physical reality.

The reason science can’t DISprove God ever is its inductive nature and its dependence on physical data. It cannot exclude God in much the same way it can’t disprove aliens in the universe- it cannot claim to have observed all that there’s to reality so as to exclude the existence of certain realities. But it can make discoveries of extra-physical realities by discovering or proving a dependance of physical reality on a reality beyond. So in that sense, it can prove THAT there is such a reality but not what the nature of this reality is, only that it’s beyond any kind of physics or physical dimensions or laws or nature.
You have that down cold, very good.
Are those your geese? I had geese once, they drove me crazly, finally gave them away.
👍
 
I think if we take Al Mortiz’s distinction between scientific evidence and philosophical conclusions inferred from that evidence (as we should), we cannot say that the scientific evidence we have indicates that the universe came into being.

This is because things can only come into being if a certain philosophical theory of time is true, and our scientific evidence itself does not favor any particular philosophical theory of time. Thus, the only thing the scientific evidences such as the expansion of the universe, or the CMBR, or the Borde-Guth-Vilenkin theorem (etc.) indicates is that the universe had a first or initial state. Whether or not this state came into being is a conclusion we can only draw once we endorse a particular theory of time and conjoin it with the scientific evidence.

These competing theories of time are broadly known as the A-theory and the B-theory.

The former basically says that there is a real temporal transition from event to event, and from state to state. Time seems to ‘flow’ like a river on A-theory, the ‘present’ is an absolute reference frame from which we can say what is ‘really’ the past, and it’s generally said once something passes from present to past it ceases to exist.

B-theory, on the other hand, says that time-space is like a giant ‘block’ that’s divided into slices. Each of these slices exists, none being less real than another. Time is like a spatial dimension. What we call the ‘present’ is the time-slice we’re at, but other things are at different time-slices and thus the ‘present’ is in their region of the block to them. There is no absolute ‘present’ or ‘past’ or ‘future’, no absolute reference frame from which we can say what is ‘really’ the past, since all time-slices equally exist.‘Future’ and ‘past’ are like directions in the ‘block’. e.g., Dinosaurs exist in a time slice earlier than this one. (Time-travel is only possible on B-theory, since only on B-theory is there ‘somewhere’ to travel to in the past)

Things can only ‘come into being’ if the A-theory is true. But, many, many scientists and philosophers are B-theorists (most were because of Einstein’s theories of relativity) and they’re perfectly capable of accepting Big Bang Cosmology etc. So, Big Bang Cosmology by itself cannot tell us whether the universe came into being, it’s left up to us to discover the best philosophical interpretation of the scientific evidence.

As one of the world’s foremost experts on the Kalam cosmological argument (which specializes in the scientific and philosophical evidence for the temporal beginning of the universe), Dr. William Lane Craig, explains:

“On a B-Theory of time, the universe does not in fact come into being or become actual at the Big Bang; it just exists tenselessly as a four-dimensional space-time block that is finitely extended in the earlier than direction. If time is tenseless, then the universe never really comes into being, and, therefore, the quest for a cause of its coming into being is misconceived. Although G. W. F. Leibniz’s question, Why is there (tenselessly) something rather than nothing?, should still rightly be asked, there would be no reason to look for a cause of the universe’s beginning to exist, since on tenseless theories of time the universe did not begin to exist in virtue of its having a first event anymore than a meter stick begins to exist in virtue of having a first centimeter.” - Craig, William Lane., and James Porter Moreland. The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology. Chichester, U.K.: Wiley-Blackwell, 2009. pp. 183-84.
Hate to say it but B-Theior sounds like a fairy tale to me. Hard to believe grown ups take it seriously. All the evidence seems to point to the A-Theory.

And even if " A " is wrong ( and Thomas Aquinas did not think the contrary could be proven), you still have to account for the beginning of motion/change, the efficient cause of effects, the formal cause of things, the existence of things, the order and directedness of the universe and all that is in it or has ever been in it. To come to any conclusion other that of Thomas isn’t reasonable because then noting is explained. To say " well it just put itself together and governs itself, etc. " - well, that is not at all reasonable, certainly not compared to the reasonableness of Thomas. 👍
 
Hate to say it but B-Theior sounds like a fairy tale to me. Hard to believe grown ups take it seriously. All the evidence seems to point to the A-Theory.
What IS the evidence for the B-theory? As described above, there seems to be nothing to recommend it (-other than, perhaps, avoiding undesirable implications of the A-theory).
 
I don’t think the title of this thread should be attributed to Fr. Spitzer.I believe the title of the program was 'Proofs of God’s Existence." Spitzer’s position is that much in contemporary physics bolsters belief in God. And he makes clear science can’t DISPROVE the existence of God.

The Church holds that we can know through reason alone there is a God. This is important.
I take full blame for the title. I was just taking a dig at " the universe is all there is " folks. 👍
 
What IS the evidence for the B-theory? As described above, there seems to be nothing to recommend it (-other than, perhaps, avoiding undesirable implications of the A-theory).
Got me. Ask Perplexity. But it sounded like it came from a fairy tale. The " A " theory sounds like what we ( you and I and normal people ) think we have now. 👍
 
I take full blame for the title. I was just taking a dig at " the universe is all there is " folks. 👍
That’s the way I took it. But some of the comments seemed to suggest that the drift of Spitzer’s conversation was that science HAD proved God exists.

I have enjoyed some of Spitzer’s writings and although I enjoyed parts of the call-in-show conversation, as usually happens, I found myself wishing I could hear a lecture followed by a Q&A. But that’s me. Still glad this was posted and glad I listened. I’ll have to look at more of Spitzer’s works.
 
What IS the evidence for the B-theory? As described above, there seems to be nothing to recommend it (-other than, perhaps, avoiding undesirable implications of the A-theory).
There have been all kinds of arguments back and forth to be honest lol. I’ll try and outline a few:

It seems common to intuit that time travel is possible. This is amply evinced by its presence in literature and films accross countries and time (e.g., Back to the Future, The Time Machine, etc. etc.). But, you can’t travel back in time if the past doesn’t exist. Therefore, this intuition supports B-theory.

If A-theory is true, how fast does time flow? We can’t say because speed is distance over time. So, it’s absurd to say time ‘flows’. Therefore, we have reason to reject A-theory.

A-theory struggles to make sense of past and future statements as well. How can a statement about the past be true when nothing exists to make that statement true? There’s nothing out there that the claim corresponds to. But, there is on B-theory. Thus, we have reason to reject A-theory.

There is a vast discussion over these and many other issues that I’m simply not competent enough to summarize, but I think this might be a decent start toward an answer to your question.
 
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It seems common to intuit that time travel is possible. This is amply evinced by its presence in literature and films accross countries and time (e.g., Back to the Future, The Time Machine, etc. etc.). But, you can’t travel back in time if the past doesn’t exist. Therefore, this intuition supports B-theory…
If presence in literature is sufficient to establish possibility, then God is well established, as was an ancient “golden age.” Both of those are more common in literature than time travel.

The B-theory raises a terribly difficult problem: WHERE is time? Consider a simple example. You want to park your car downtown but you can’t find a spot. You think, “Man, if only I got here an hour ago, I would have found a space.” You go back in time one hour and, voila, there’s a space. You park. You go inside for two hours. When you return, your car isn’t where you left it because the car that had parked there when you first showed up is there. Where is your car???
 
.If A-theory is true, how fast does time flow? We can’t say because speed is distance over time. So, it’s absurd to say time ‘flows’. Therefore, we have reason to reject A-theory.
It is not necessary to answer the question “how fast” in order to know that time passes. (This is like saying you can’t call a watermelon ‘sweet’ unless you can say how sweet.) We age. Everything around us ages. Seeds become seedlings become plants. There’s no problem here. Well, time is a difficult concept to understand, but there’s no problem in you realizing that the election this November will not be for the year 1932 (-which is past) or 2016 (-which is future) but for 2012.
 
If Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin had found a statue of Britney Spears on the moon in 1969, before Spears was even born,
then we’d have to say there was scientific evidence that God exists.

But until we find some evidence of this nature that God has left for us,
we can only believe in God through reason, not science.

Sorry, Lonergan and Spitzer fans. Quantum mechanics only works where there is already something for quantum mechanics to work on. It cannot be used to prove God’s existence, because he didn’t need quantum mechanics or anything else to create the world…
 
According to Fr. Spitzer Science shows the universe had an absolute beginning. Even if you extrapolate the argument to allow for muli-verses, or bubble universes ( are these canserous growths :eek:), there would have to be an absolute beginning for every scenero. Therefore there has to be an Almighty Creator with the attributes of the God of Christianity.

One can also go the other way. If the Universe is ever exlpanding, it must have had an absolute beginning. It had to be created by the same sort of Almighty Being as above.

🙂
 
According to Fr. Spitzer Science shows the universe had an absolute beginning. )
Granted, but it’s worth keeping in mind that Aristotle reasoned his way to God while assuming an eternal universe. Aquinas thought that a philosopher could not prove the universe had a beginning, so he was wiling to assume (for the sake of non-theological argument) that the universe was eternal. He still reasoned there must be a God.
 
That is not the issue. Roveau points out that you make a category error.

Science can only prove something according to the scientific method, which requires study by observation and/or experiment. Science uses, by definition and by self-limitation, methodological naturalism as method, the search for natural causes to natural effects. God cannot prove or disprove God.

What you mean is that Spitzer offers philosophical proofs from science. This is different from proof by science proper.

BTW, I say all this as a scientist myself (a biochemist).

If one of Spitzer’s arguments is the apparent fine-tuning of the laws of nature, I agree with that. It is a strong argument for those who actually think it through, in my view. But again, this is not a scientific argument, but a philosophical argument from the findings of science.
👍👍 You’ve got it right–I’m also a scientist, a physicist (50 years). I disagree with Fr. Spitzer’s terminology (even though I’m associated with the Magis Center). Science, particularly the anthropic principle, gives evidence for a creating intelligence, but that isn’t proof of a personal God. St. Thomas in his five ways and St. Anselm, also gave evidence for a creating entity, but not a personal God. There are limits to science–it can’t prove the existence of God, it can’t tell you why music is so inspiring, or why beauty, reason and mathematics leads one to faith.
(All the above is discussed at greater length in my blog TTop Down to Jesus
 
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