Lastly, reason and logic dictate that the vast majority of people who came into existence will end up in hell. I could quote verse after verse from the Bible and saint after saint, I just don’t feel like it.
Well, you sure see the “risk level” of existing in this universe as very high then. And are you really willing to believe in a God who allows existence in such a dangerous universe? And if you believe in him, how could you love and worship a God like this??
Your appeal to logic and reason suggests that we should be able to “give an account” of how it came to be that a certain number of people are in hell and a certain number of people are in heaven. God, being omnicient, and being the creator who set all things in motion, necessarily can give an account of how the final outcome came to be. Remember that God has foreknowledge of the final outcome, even as he creates all men. The number of the saved is not random! God created our human will; he knows the inner workings of the heart of every man, having fashioned them himself. So neccessarily God sets in place by his creation of man with free will, a “logic” of salvation.
This logic inheres and flows from the nature of the physical universe, the nature of God, the nature of all spiritual things, such that the logic permeates all things as to have a determining influence on the final outcome, despite the fact that each individuals outcome is choosen all my the individual via free will.
I’m really just trying to come up with a weaker version of what Aquinas says.
For in Summa Part 1, Q23, article 7, Aquinas says…
newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm#article7
h.ttp://ww.w.newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm#article7:
"Therefore we must say that to God the number of the predestined is certain, not only formally, but also materially. It must, however, be observed that the number of the predestined is said to be certain to God, not by reason of His knowledge, because, that is to say, He knows how many will be saved (for in this way the number of drops of rain and the sands of the sea are certain to God); but by reason of His deliberate choice and determination. "
Yes, Aquinas says that the true count of people in heaven vs hell at the end of time is specifically chosen by God by his deliberate choice and determination.
Yes, by reason of his
delibrate choice and determination****. Aquinas just uses stronger langauge to describe the “logic” of salvation, I was discussing above.
Now in all this, God still respects our free will, and we all “theoretically” be saved if we so choose. The problem is we dont’ know how difficult salvation really is, because we dont’ know the oods. We DON’T KNOW how many God has predestined. So it is true that to exist invloves a tremendous risk of eternal torture which we will not tolerate if it be our fate. We will languish in flames and worms, in a state of utter agony and misery beyond our worst nightmares.
The glory of heaven does not compensate for the risk of existence, not because heaven isn’t good enough to justify the risk (it is), but because it doesn’t matter how good heaven is if the chances of getting their are small.
Nothing changes the fact that at the end of time there will be a final outcome, and if there is even one person in eternal hell, that person is there, freely perhaps, but on account of conditions, and logic which God put into his creation. This can only be described as a game, a gamble with eternal stakes, taken not by our choice, but thrust on us at the moment of our creation.
Well, I guess I’ll jump in.
Simply, God could not have forced you into existence because there was simply no “you” to be forced. You were just…made. You had no say in your creation, but creation wasn’t something that was done to you (as being forced into something implies), it was the beginning of you. So technically, you cannot be forced into existence.
God cannot force you into existence, only decide to create you (to actualize a creaturely essence)
…
5. Since believers were created for God and for service to God, we do not belong to ourselves but to God.
6. Since we are property of God, we have no right to wish for non-existence or to wish that we were never born. Had we created ourselves, we would be entitled to that right.
We were forced in the sense that we were created as pieces in God’s game of heaven and hell. The stakes are eternal. We are trapped in a logic and system of salvation with unknown odds. A person can be said “to not exist.” you can logically concieve of my non-existence, or my annilihation. It does not matter that there was no “me” to be forced. the simple fact that I exist (instead of not existing ), without fully understanding the terms of my existence as it was forced upon me, is suffecient to show how unconsiderate God was to do such a thing as create me.
I continue to hope maintain that we are very reasonable to wish that we had never been born, and to take an offer of anhilliation of it were offered to us. Furthermore, I see God as very unjust in logic of salvation he has established, and not worthy of my true love.
America’s forced scheme of salvation ]
