God forknowledge, fate and divine justice

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Bahman

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I am providing an argument that God foreknowledge implements fate for each individual which this is against divine justice.
  1. God has foreknowledge
  2. This means that God knows acts of each individual before creation
  3. This means that our lives are tightened to our fate
Now we have to argue whether we have the same essence or not. This break the argument into two parts:

A) We have the same essence:
  1. We have the same essence
  2. This means that the difference between us is due to our actions
  3. Our actions are free yet they are tightened to our fates, in simple word we could not do other than what God knows
  4. This means that the act creation is against divine justice since it gives different fates to different individuals with the same essence
B) We have different essence: This doesn’t really change the situation as it is discussed since our actions are different partly because our different essence which are given and we couldn’t possibly do anything against that too.
 
How does the following change the free will of the people involved:

A group of people are videoed without their knowledge. The person doing the videoing is aware at the time and watches the events as they unfold.

A group of people are videoed without their knowledge. The videoing is done automatically and is later reviewed by someone about a day later.

Do the people on the video (when it is watched) have free will each time the video is played?

Basically is free will taken away just because someone can fast-forward your life and see into the future what the you on video does not know is coming?
 
Bahman said:
I am providing an argument that God foreknowledge implements fate for each individual which this is against divine justice.
  1. God has foreknowledge
  2. This means that God knows acts of each individual before creation
  3. This means that our lives are tightened to our fate
Now we have to argue whether we have the same essence or not. This break the argument into two parts:

A) We have the same essence:
  1. We have the same essence
  2. This means that the difference between us is due to our actions
  3. Our actions are free yet they are tightened to our fates, in simple word we could not do other than what God knows
  4. This means that the act creation is against divine justice since it gives different fates to different individuals with the same essence
B) We have different essence: This doesn’t really change the situation as it is discussed since our actions are different partly because our different essence which are given and we couldn’t possibly do anything against that too.
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We do not have fates in the sense of pre-set actions we must do. God is outside time, so He is aware of all our actions - whether those of us in time perceive them as past, present, or future. It is not a matter of our actions being bound by fate, so that we cannot do other than what God knows. Rather, God’s knowledge is bound by the reality of our actions, that is, God cannot know our actions other than what actions we actually commit.
 
Trident_H said:
How does the following change the free will of the people involved:

A group of people are videoed without their knowledge. The person doing the videoing is aware at the time and watches the events as they unfold.

A group of people are videoed without their knowledge. The videoing is done automatically and is later reviewed by someone about a day later.

Do the people on the video (when it is watched) have free will each time the video is played?

Basically is free will taken away just because someone can fast-forward your life and see into the future what the you on video does not know is coming?
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There is no tension between free will and fate as you stated. My argument however stands, meaning that having a fate is against divine justice.
 
Zabdi_Premjit said:
We do not have fates in the sense of pre-set actions we must do.
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I didn’t say so.
Zabdi_Premjit said:
God is outside time, so He is aware of all our actions - whether those of us in time perceive them as past, present, or future.
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That I know.
Zabdi_Premjit said:
It is not a matter of our actions being bound by fate, so that we cannot do other than what God knows.
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We cannot do other than what God knows since we don’t know what God knows.
Zabdi_Premjit said:
Rather, God’s knowledge is bound by the reality of our actions, that is, God cannot know our actions other than what actions we actually commit.
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That I agree but my argument still stands.
 
Bahman said:
I didn’t say so.

That I know.

We cannot do other than what God knows since we don’t know what God knows.

That I agree but my argument still stands.
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Does it still stand? You agree that God’s knowledge is based on our actions, yet you also insist our actions are limited by God’s knowledge. It cannot be both ways.

Whether we know what God knows or not has no bearing on our ability to do an act other than the one He knows. We act, and God’s knowledge is contingent on our actions. Something cannot be bound by something contingent on itself. Why? Because that would mean God’s knowledge is bound by our actions, which are bound by God’s knowledge, which is bound by our actions, which are bound by God’s knowledge. Your argument creates are infinite loop and is therefore irrational.

What response do you expect to get from an irrational assertion, other than an observation that it is irrational?
 
Bahman said:
There is no tension between free will and fate as you stated. My argument however stands, meaning that having a fate is against divine justice.
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I don’t know. Maybe it is. But what if you were Merlin and lived life backwards? What if you knew everyone’s future and were seeing them for the last time each time you greeted them the first time. Would the fact that you saw what everyone was going to do mean that they hadn’t chosen to do it?

I mean, let’s say you build a time machine and jump into the future. Now you see what happened. Does that mean no one chose to make those things happen?

I guess I know what you are trying to say about fate and such, but if it was all about fate then God would not need to judge people at the end of their lives, but would be able to do it in the beginning.

And buddy, let me tell you how tempting it would be for me to get out of being judged at all. I mean I am probably one of those faint-hope cases whose trial is going to be set for the end of the day because it seems like a pretty open and shut case for the prosecution.

But that’s why I’m here right now. I’m trying to get enough courage to be better than I am.
 
Zabdi_Premjit said:
Does it still stand? You agree that God’s knowledge is based on our actions, yet you also insist our actions are limited by God’s knowledge. It cannot be both ways.
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I don’t agree that God knowledge is based on our actions since that makes God’s knowledge contingent to our existence.
Zabdi_Premjit said:
Whether we know what God knows or not has no bearing on our ability to do an act other than the one He knows. We act, and God’s knowledge is contingent on our actions. Something cannot be bound by something contingent on itself. Why? Because that would mean God’s knowledge is bound by our actions, which are bound by God’s knowledge, which is bound by our actions, which are bound by God’s knowledge. Your argument creates are infinite loop and is therefore irrational.
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God’s knowledge is not contingent to our existence hence our action.
 
Bahman said:
I don’t agree that God knowledge is based on our actions since that makes God’s knowledge contingent to our existence.

God’s knowledge is not contingent to our existence hence our action.
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How can God’s knowledge of our actions not be contingent on our existence? Isn’t His knowledge of our actions a part of His economy, that is, a part of how He relates to creatures within the context of the created world?

If God’s knowledge of our actions is not contingent on our existence and actions, then that would seem to imply that such knowledge is necessary to Him. I very much question that implication! If this knowledge is necessary to Him, then it is a part of His essence. If it is necessary that God’s knowledge of our actions must exist, then it follows that it is necessary that we must exist (in order for those actions to occur). This, in turn, means that it was necessary for God to create us, which would mean that God did not create us by an act of free will. Any such “necessary creation” sounds more like the impersonal emanation of the universe in Gnosticism than like the personal creation by free will in Christianity.
 
Zabdi_Premjit said:
How can God’s knowledge of our actions not be contingent on our existence? Isn’t His knowledge of our actions a part of His economy, that is, a part of how He relates to creatures within the context of the created world?

If God’s knowledge of our actions is not contingent on our existence and actions, then that would seem to imply that such knowledge is necessary to Him. I very much question that implication! If this knowledge is necessary to Him, then it is a part of His essence. If it is necessary that God’s knowledge of our actions must exist, then it follows that it is necessary that we must exist (in order for those actions to occur). This, in turn, means that it was necessary for God to create us, which would mean that God did not create us by an act of free will. Any such “necessary creation” sounds more like the impersonal emanation of the universe in Gnosticism than like the personal creation by free will in Christianity.
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God’s knowledge is not subjected to our action because of a simple reason: God knows the content of creation before creation act.
 
Bahman said:
God’s knowledge is not subjected to our action because of a simple reason: God knows the content of creation before creation act.
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That reasoning only makes sense if God is bound by the rules of time like creatures are.

In fact, God does not know the content of creation before the creation act, because He is outside time. Outside time, there is no before or after, there is just the “eternal moment”. All actions occur in the same “eternal moment”, and God knows all in that “eternal moment.” God’s knowledge does not precede our acts; it is concurrent with our act in the “eternal moment.”

To make an imperfect analogy, God perceives the world similar to how a human might perceive a page of a comic book. When we look at that page, we see many event simultaneously in one moment. However, within the context of comic, these events occur at multiple sequential points in time. Both out perspective and the perspective of the characters in the comic coexist without contradiction and are equally valid. Note too, that our knowledge of what the character in the first pane will do in the fifth pane does not mean that we cause his actions in the fifth pain. Rather, we know what his action will be in pane five because we are outside of the dimensions of time that govern the character. The real cause of his action in pane five is the author of the character’s actions. Notice, having foreknowledge of character’s action does not make us the author of his action. Now, a key difference between this comic and real life is that, in real life, the author of our actions is us ourselves.
 
Zabdi_Premjit said:
That reasoning only makes sense if God is bound by the rules of time like creatures are.

In fact, God does not know the content of creation before the creation act, because He is outside time. Outside time, there is no before or after, there is just the “eternal moment”. All actions occur in the same “eternal moment”, and God knows all in that “eternal moment.” God’s knowledge does not precede our acts; it is concurrent with our act in the “eternal moment.”

To make an imperfect analogy, God perceives the world similar to how a human might perceive a page of a comic book. When we look at that page, we see many event simultaneously in one moment. However, within the context of comic, these events occur at multiple sequential points in time. Both out perspective and the perspective of the characters in the comic coexist without contradiction and are equally valid. Note too, that our knowledge of what the character in the first pane will do in the fifth pane does not mean that we cause his actions in the fifth pain. Rather, we know what his action will be in pane five because we are outside of the dimensions of time that govern the character. The real cause of his action in pane five is the author of the character’s actions. Notice, having foreknowledge of character’s action does not make us the author of his action. Now, a key difference between this comic and real life is that, in real life, the author of our actions is us ourselves.
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Do you believe that creation has a beginning?
 
Bahman said:
Do you believe that creation has a beginning?
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Creation was created by God. From the viewpoint of a creature in time, that is correctly perceived as a beginning, yes. From a viewpoint outside time, the creation of the worlds, the fall of man, the crucifixion, the last judgement, etc. are all events in one “eternal moment,” so to speak. God is the creator of the universe, including time, so the issues of beginning, ending, before, after, etc. does not, strictly speaking, pertain to Him. However, as humans, we are creatures, and we certainly experience beginnings, endings, befores, afters, etc. Because of that, there certainly is a moment I perceive as the beginning of the created world.
 
Zabdi_Premjit said:
Creation was created by God. From the viewpoint of a creature in time, that is correctly perceived as a beginning, yes. From a viewpoint outside time, the creation of the worlds, the fall of man, the crucifixion, the last judgement, etc. are all events in one “eternal moment,” so to speak. God is the creator of the universe, including time, so the issues of beginning, ending, before, after, etc. does not, strictly speaking, pertain to Him. However, as humans, we are creatures, and we certainly experience beginnings, endings, befores, afters, etc. Because of that, there certainly is a moment I perceive as the beginning of the created world.
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That I know but if creation has a beginning then content of it, God’s foreknowledge is fixed at the moment of creation. This means that each individual has a specific fate which this as it is illustrated contradict with divine justice.
 
Bahman said:
That I know but if creation has a beginning then content of it, God’s foreknowledge is fixed at the moment of creation. This means that each individual has a specific fate which this as it is illustrated contradict with divine justice.
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Please stop putting limits on the almighty God. He is not limited by time.

What do you mean by “foreknowledge” and why do believe it applies to God?
 
davidv said:
Please stop putting limits on the almighty God. He is not limited by time.
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I didn’t say so.
davidv said:
What do you mean by “foreknowledge” and why do believe it applies to God?
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I mean that the content of creation is clear for God at the point of creation. The content of creation is what God wishes. This implements fate for individuals although they are free. This is against divine justice.
 
Bahman said:
I didn’t say so.

I mean that the content of creation is clear for God at the point of creation. The content of creation is what God wishes. This implements fate for individuals although they are free. This is against divine justice.
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I have no idea how this answers my question.

Define foreknowledge. How this apply to God?
 
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