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oldcelt
Guest
You bring up some excellent points. I do believe that my God is a developing intelligence. Neutrality is a positive and the possibility of other universes is fascinating.
John
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John
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tonyrey
Guest
Thank you, John.
God is certainly dynamic and creative!
Neutrality is not a virtue but a moral defect.
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Bahman
Guest
It seems you didn’t understand my argument. I am not arguing about any conflict between God’s knowledge and free will. So I have to repeat myself again. You agree that creation has a content at the moment of creation. Consider two individuals with the same essence who have different destiny. Two individuals have the same essence so whet make them to have a different destinies are the lives they are given. How you could defend divine justice in this case?
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Bahman
Guest
But they have the same essence! This means that they would choose the same thing if they are given the other situation.
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abucs
Guest
Hello Bahman,
the issue that is creating the confusion is the reality of time.
For the Christian:
It is interesting that science now is catching up to the claim that time is an illusion :
So when we talk about making decisions and things already being determined we have to take into the account that our perspective of time is not the same as others. It is especially not the same for God who is not bound by time and who has a clear view of all the choices we have made. The confusion arises when we try to stand in God’s shoes and bound Him as having the same experience of time as us.
Therefore with regards to our choices, we think since He knows NOW what it will be, and we don’t know NOW then we think that our choice is already determined.
But the error is bounding God’s sense of NOW to our own.
The movie MATRIX tried to deal with this question by putting the hero NEO bound by computer time with a figure not bound by computer time.
The person not bound by time knows the full reality but NEO thinks that takes away his choice. In the movie the Oracle (not bound by computer time) tries to tell Neo that it is completely his choice, to the oracle the choice has already been made by Neo.
The oracle sees the eternal NOW, but Neo is bound to experience lots of different Now’s as we do. The director tries to represent the coming together of the two different perspectives in time by NEO going trough a door.
Regards,
Abucs.
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Zabdi_Premjit
Guest
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Bahman
Guest
So what dictate our choice?What?
Human essence doesn’t dictate our choices.
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Bahman
Guest
I don’t understand how you are addressing my question by explaining the time is an illusion. I do believe that time does not exist at all. Could we be more specific and focus on my argument?
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abucs
Guest
Your argument of fate and foreknowledge are based on a concept of time which is incorrect. If you cannot see that the issue of time directly affects your argument then I suggest it is because you are wanting not to discuss intelligently but only to preach.
I do not accept your preaching as rational or well considered. Good luck in the future.
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Zabdi_Premjit
Guest
Why do you assume that something dictates our choices?
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Bahman
Guest
That is the whole point about the paradox: The very fact that we have two individuals with the same essence and different destinies dictates some force on their free choices while we know that they are free.
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Zabdi_Premjit
Guest
*]Humans possess the ability to choose. Their choices are not dictated by anyone or anything outside themselves.
*]Context affects us, in that our situation and past experiences can limit our ability to understand ourselves and the Good (i.e. God) that our nature yearns for. However, this does not lessen our ability to choose. It is more like having our compass broken and map obscured while we navigate a hiking trail. We aren’t any less able to choose between paths, per se. However we must now use less accurate sources of information, so we are more likely to get lost. The faculty of choice is not impaired; we simply make less informed choices, due to our knowledge being impaired.
*]Exercise of choice has noting to do with essence/nature. Choice is not a faculty of human nature. Choice is a faculty of the person.
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Bahman
Guest
These I know all. You seems that you didn’t get the paradox. Do you want me to explain it again?
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Zabdi_Premjit
Guest
There is no paradox. Every time you make an assertion that there is one, you are shown your assumptions are wrong.
If you want there to be a paradox so badly though, go ahead and explain again.
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Bahman
Guest
There is a paradox:There is no paradox. Every time you make an assertion that there is one, you are shown your assumptions are wrong.
If you want there to be a paradox so badly though, go ahead and explain again.
- You accepted that creation has a content: things that happens in creation
- What happens is partly the result of our actions which are done freely
- Now consider two individuals with the same essence and different destinies
- Now exchange two individuals which doesn’t have any effect on content of creation
- This means that these two individuals now have different destinies
- This means that there is constrain in creation which give different destinies to different individuals
- (2) and (6) contradict each other and there is a paradox in your picture of creation
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Godconvertedme
Guest
Gods Foreknowledge and Fate are not synonymous. Gods Foreknowledge is Truth. Fate is an untruth. Fate is actually a misconception of Gods Foreknowledge. Mans misguided, misinterpretation of a Divine Fact. Gods Foreknowledge allows for freewill, while Fate removes freewill.
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Bahman
Guest
There is no tension between free will and fate.
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Godconvertedme
Guest
No there isn’t, one is true and other is FALSE. Fate doesn’t exist. It’s a lie.
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