God hardens hearts?

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God does not change.

God melted Moses’ heart; but God’s love hardened Pharaoh’s heart.

The New Testament has the same thing. God melted Peter’s heart and hardened Judas’.

Also, Adam and Eve were driven out of the Garden similarly as Judas and Pharaoh were driven from God’s absolute beauty and eternal love.
 
Still seems to violate the concept of free will, in spite of a lot of explaining.
 
I am not sure, but this is what I think and believe.

Peter decided to love Jesus’ love and beauty.

Judas decided to turn away from His love and beauty.

They each made their own decisions.
 
Still seems to violate the concept of free will, in spite of a lot of explaining.
You should read CS Lewis, even though it doesn’t address this issue specifically, he does explain the concept of God and good and evil in a way that actually makes sense.
 
Still seems to violate the concept of free will, in spite of a lot of explaining.
God does not violate free wills. Another way of saying “hardened his heart” is: God was drawing Pharaoh to make the right choice and when he refuse to cooperate God stopped drawing him.
 
Sorry to seem so difficult, but that isn’t what the passage SAYS. From where does that particular interpretation come?

:confused:
 
Sorry to seem so difficult, but that isn’t what the passage SAYS. From where does that particular interpretation come?
Think about any sinner who is lost within their sin. When someone is trapped in the sin of lust and refuses to ask God for forgiveness haven’t they hardened their heart?

Or a Misotheist who hates God for the world he put them in, refusing to even acknowledge the truth of the matter-don’t they harden their heart to God refusing his forgiveness?

The passage is not implying that God brainwashed Pharaoh into refusing to free the Isrealites; it merely states that in his anger at these plagues which devastated his land and openly challenged his pagan gods he refused the demands of God brought forth by Moses.
 
Still seems to violate the concept of free will, in spite of a lot of explaining.
Hi Sailor,
The whole area of free will is a mystery in itself. Because if we have free will, then what
does that leave to Divine Omnipotence? At man’s mercy. And if we state God’s complete
control, then where does that leave man’s free will? This is a theological head banger.

And then to add this bottomless black hole of a puzzle, throw in predestination.

The biggest misunderstanding that we sometimes have of ourselves, is that we really
cannot know everything(god). On occassions we must look down with bowed head
and simply say, “how geat thou art”. Only the Almighty can juggle so many ideas
at once without dropping any of them.

Your question is a fair question and it was asked in a simliar way centuries
ago when God was seen as hateful in the O.T. and loving in the N.T. If it is the
same God in both, then why the difference in behavior? Then your question,
why does He treat some with love and others with disdain?

Frankly I don’t know if there is just one answer. But the one that appeals to me the
most is looking at the whole salvation scene from beginning to end because I believe
that is what God is considering. He promised us a saviour, thru Abraham, thru David,
for all mankind. I think He is insureing that this will take place and anything that is
interferring with this must give way.

Now the question is, well why deal in such a harsh way?

Maybe in the divine mind he foresaw future events threatening the outcome of salvation
if certain people were left to themselves to do what they wanted. I do feel sure that
no human on this planet has any idea all the circumstancess which had to be considered
for success in the divine plan. And since He is all knowing of past, present, and future
events, then He has a very distinct advantage over us.

Now I admit, it would be nice to know all the “whys”. But since we are not previleged
here, we are previleged in knowing and trusting to his judgement and thereby pleasing
Him with our faith. This is what our father Abraham did when he was about to
kill his only son solely because God had asked him. And we know that God
was very pleased with his faith in Him, as he could have said “how mean God is”.

In all of this I suppose we will still look for answers for understanding our faith. And that
is good. But when the answers don’t come, then we must become other Abrahams,
or Egyptians.
 
Sorry to seem so difficult, but that isn’t what the passage SAYS. From where does that particular interpretation come?

:confused:
If you read Romans 9 Paul’s is talking about the Jews lack of faith in Christ. He compares this lack of faith to Pharoah’s lack of faith, and explains that God hardens the hearts of those who choose to disbelieve. God hardens unbelievers hearts as a punishment for their sin of unbelief. Then he describes how God used Pharoah’s hardness of heart as both a punishment to unbelievers and a manifestation of His glory.
 
Still seems to violate the concept of free will, in spite of a lot of explaining.
It doesn’t because God in his omnipotence being knew the Pharaoh would never convert…so the Pharaoh’s free will was never violated.

Basically God knew when He created us who would ‘endure to the end’ in believing in Him and who would remain stubbornly evil to the end. God only accelerated Pharaoh’s choice.

Why did God accelerate his and not other evil people? That is a mystery. This was part of His plan. This was God’s way of bringing good out of evil.

So the moral of the story is don’t tick God off too many times in a row…or… :eek:
 
There is another explanation for this passage which has been proposed. It is that G-d is the “ultimate cause” of our behavior but not necessarily the “immediate cause.” This means that G-d did NOT directly harden the heart of Pharaoh, but instead gave him the personality AND free will which contributed to hardening his OWN heart. Thus G-d knew that Pharaoh would not consent to Moses due to Pharaoh’s exercise of his free will and would require additional tests (i.e. the plagues) to see whether Pharaoh would, by his free will, change his mind.
 
It doesn’t because God in his omnipotence being knew the Pharaoh would never convert…so the Pharaoh’s free will was never violated.

Basically God knew when He created us who would ‘endure to the end’ in believing in Him and who would remain stubbornly evil to the end. God only accelerated Pharaoh’s choice.

Why did God accelerate his and not other evil people? That is a mystery. This was part of His plan. This was God’s way of bringing good out of evil.

So the moral of the story is don’t tick God off too many times in a row…or… :eek:
Lol, thanks. And everyone. Sorry to be so obstinate and thick-headed on this one.
 
Lol, thanks. And everyone. Sorry to be so obstinate and thick-headed on this one.
No need to apologize. This is quite a difficult biblical passage to understand because it sort of forces us to try to understand an infinite being with our finite minds…:confused:

Trust me, your not the only one to struggle with this passage.

This is a good topic to talk about because it really makes us begin to realize just what omnipotence and all-knowing must really mean.
 
God did not expressly will Pharaoh to doubt Him, by hardening his heart God allowed Pharaoh’s obstinacy and sin to spiral out of control to show Pharaoh who he was dealing with. It is comparable to a parent dealing with a rebellious teenager who wants leave home and go off on his own because he cannot stand his family; the parent lets the child go and learn the hard way how wrong they are in order to show them their fault. The parent does not will the child’s downfall but allows the child to persist in their mistake in order to bring about some good in the end. This is the same situation with God and Pharaoh, by allowing Pharaoh’s wrongdoing to spiral out of control God saved His chosen people from bondage, strengthened the faith of all of Israel, showed that the Egyptian gods counted for nothing against Him, so in the end good came from Pharaoh’s actions but it is too bad pharaoh himself did not turn and realize that the God of the Hebrews truly was the one and only God, this unbelief was of Pharaoh but God allowed him to proceed down that path and did not expressly will unbelief in pharaoh.
 
There is another explanation for this passage which has been proposed. It is that G-d is the “ultimate cause” of our behavior but not necessarily the “immediate cause.” This means that G-d did NOT directly harden the heart of Pharaoh, but instead gave him the personality AND free will which contributed to hardening his OWN heart. Thus G-d knew that Pharaoh would not consent to Moses due to Pharaoh’s exercise of his free will and would require additional tests (i.e. the plagues) to see whether Pharaoh would, by his free will, change his mind.
That is interesting but I think it muddles the point by your earlier statement that God knew Pharaoh would not consent and then would see whether or not the plagues would change his mind.

I think God knew Pharaoh would not consent and needed only to remove the restraining hand of grace upon him (i.e. give him over to a debased mind which Pharaoh already possessed) and Pharaoh, through the agency of his already debased mind, has his heart hardened. This God knows and wills that Pharaoh’s heart will be hardened, but is not the direct cause because Pharaoh’s heart is hardened because of the wockedness within his own heart.

God Bless
 
=Ben Bet Beh;8259997]Could someone explain this passage to me? It appears harsh to me. Perhaps the context of what is going on would be helpful. Thanks!
And I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they shall go in after them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, his chariots, and his horsemen. (Exodus 14:17)
The terminology is the tricky part. :rolleyes:

A careful reading shows that each time the Pharaoh’s heart was “hardended” it followed HIS OWN denial of the plagues and it’s hoped for effects. THEREFORE Pharoah did it to himself and GOD PERMMITTED him to do so [just as He permits each of us to exercise our freewills.]

The second factor is GRACE a free gift from God OFFERED to whom and in amounts that He, God alone, determines. It is reasonable to understand that given the number of opportunities given to Pharaoh, that God withheld [in Divine Justice], the exrta grace that would have been needed in order to convert his heart; and it is equally possible that our “All Knowing” God knew that no-matter what He offered in Grace, Pharaoh was too obstinate and filled with PRIDE to accept it.

God ONLY obligates Himself to offer “sufficient grace” to EVERYONE so that they can [freely choose] to know Him. More refuase this initial offfering than accept it. And God has no further obligation to extend His offer of salvaton.

God Bless you,

Hope this clarifies it for you?

Pat
 
…Hope this clarifies it for you?
Yes, to the extent my mind can grasp this. I don’t see God hardening Pharoh’s heart as being so harsh anymore. Having said that, it appears to me that God did more than merely permit Pharoh to remain in his sin. It appears that God made his sin even bigger since Pharoh was obstinate. It’s almost as if Pharoh became irredeemable at some point - or perhaps God made him unable to make a morally correct decision at that point in human history to help accomplish God’s will for the Israelites. I can accept God not being a direct cause of evil. Having said that, God seems to have confirmed (hardened) Pharoh’s obstinate state so he would perform the evil action. That still doesn’t seem right from the appearance of the situation anyway.
 
What if it was put this way. God sent Pharaoh grace after grace to actually move his will to cooperate. Pharoah, using his free will, refused and refused. When he consistently refused to cooperate with God’s grace, God withdrew that grace as punishment for his sin. Pharaoh’s heart was already hardened by himself and didn’t have much chance of changing with out the grace that was trying to help him was removed. If we believe God has the right to punish (at some point) and leaves them to suffer the consequence of their sins, the whole notion might not be so hard to swallow.
 
…If we believe God has the right to punish (at some point) and leaves them to suffer the consequence of their sins, the whole notion might not be so hard to swallow.
This seems to go beyond consequences for sin however. God could have had Pharoh suffer the consequences for sin without hardening his heart in the process. It really does appear that God made Pharoh more attracted to performing evil to bring about the Glory of God.
 
This seems to go beyond consequences for sin however. God could have had Pharoh suffer the consequences for sin without hardening his heart in the process. It really does appear that God made Pharoh more attracted to performing evil to bring about the Glory of God.
Yes. However Pharaoh would have still rejected God in the end. This was God’s way of bringing good out of the evil of the eternal decision of Pharaoh.

How did God make Pharaoh attracted to performing evil? God sent Moses to tell Pharaoh to let his people go. Pharaoh said no. Plague 1. Moses goes back. Answer is still no. Plague 2. etc.

How do these plagues make Pharaoh attracted to evil? God only cemented what was Pharaoh’s repeated free will decision. Moses even demonstrated the power of God with his staff turning into a snake and eating the snakes of Pharaoh’s men who turned snakes from their staffs.

Pharaoh had plenty of opportunity, and chose against God each time. In the end, Pharaoh would never choose God. So God in His power used Pharaoh as a means to bring good.
 
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