God in hell?

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What does any of this have to do with my original question?? Where did my thread go…??
 
ateista said:
I am not sure what are you talking about. Do you mean if I ever jumped off of a high cliff, trusting God that he will save me? Or did I close my eyes on a winding road and drive blind, trusting God that he will direct me to my destination? Or did I quit my job, trusting God that he will provide? No, I did not do any of that. And I bet my life savings aginst a red cent that you did not do any of these either.
These things you say are not trusting God but testing God and no I wouldn’t test Him. As far as placing my trust in Him, yeah I reached a point in my life where I did place all my trust in Him even though I never trusted anyone in my adult life and as far as how that went? I am here.

Aha! There is the crux of the matter. “When the idea is presented to them”? By whom? God himself? That would carry weight, for sure. But he is notoriously silent. By you? Why on Earth should I accept that you speak for God? By the Catholic Church? It is just a human institution, created and maintained by fallible men, who do not speak for anyone, but themselves - whether they claim otherwise or not. The Bible? It is just an ancient book of superstitions, obviously written by barely educated people, full of nonsense. It is not an authority about God’s word.

Its ironic how someone of your disposition will usually and without experience accept a warning like not to touch the “live” 220 volt wires based on the word (even though you can’t see the voltage) but will not bother to seek the truth when it comes to what you can’t sense physically.

How could I know? It never happened to me. But hypothetically speaking, if she cheated, I would ask myself if I did everything I could and I was supposed to do to earn her love. But responding to your question, if she did not want me any more, I would not punish her. I would let her go, and that would be the end of the story. Maybe my feelings would be hurt, but I would accept that my behavior was deficient.
No, I didn’t say she wanted to leave you, but she “was not sorry and will not commit to you only”

As I said before, love must be earned, and it is the small things where you can see it. Like helping the ones in need, cure them when they are sick or feed them when they are hungry. Not “subcontracting” that caring to others - as God does.
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Funny, it is said these things you say are some of what is inscribed in the hearts of everyone by God that eventually lead us to seek Him. You just may wind up seeking Him out afterall. Realize this, regardless of whether you believe in Him or not, you will meet Him one day and watch the wires.

sorry about the hyjacking, not intended…
 
twb1621 said:
sorry about the hyjacking, not intended…
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That’s O.K. Perhaps there are other things that move from what one originally intends because the original intent (by God) was to speak to someone more confused than me…teachccd 🙂
 
twb1621 said:
These things you say are not trusting God but testing God and no I wouldn’t test Him. As far as placing my trust in Him, yeah I reached a point in my life where I did place all my trust in Him even though I never trusted anyone in my adult life and as far as how that went? I am here.
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What is the difference? And you still did not tell me, what “trusting” God means. An example, please?
twb1621 said:
Its ironic how someone of your disposition will usually and without experience accept a warning like not to touch the “live” 220 volt wires based on the word (even though you can’t see the voltage) but will not bother to seek the truth when it comes to what you can’t sense physically.
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No, it is not ironic at all. When I am told that touching 220V will bring serious consequences, then I can test this claim without endangering myself and see if the claim is true. That does not apply to your claim. Why should I trust you or anyone else, who claims that they speak for God?

After all, if you are right, then the consequences are much more dire than a shock from 220V. Your claim is not based on something that can be independently verified. Why should I trust you? You said “when they are told about the consequences” they should heed the warning. Why should they trust you or anyone else? On what ground can anyone claim that God speaks from their mouth? Answer this, please!
twb1621 said:
No, I didn’t say she wanted to leave you, but she “was not sorry and will not commit to you only”
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Not a big difference. As the old joke went:

Old Cohen married a young, beautiful lady. His friend Grun asked him “Why did you marry her? You are old and ugly, she is young and beautiful. She will cheat on you!” Old Cohen winked and answered: “Because I prefer to have a 50% partnership in a good business, than to be a sole proprietor of a bad one.”

Whether I wanted to continue this relationship or not, is not the question. The point is that in neither circumstance would I blame her and be vindictive toward her.
twb1621 said:
Funny, it is said these things you say are some of what is inscribed in the hearts of everyone by God that eventually lead us to seek Him. You just may wind up seeking Him out afterall. Realize this, regardless of whether you believe in Him or not, you will meet Him one day and watch the wires.
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Your answer has nothing to do with what I said: “a loving person is there to help when the need arises and does not shove it unto other people’s shoulders.”
 
Thank you Teach…
ateista said:
What is the difference? And you still did not tell me, what “trusting” God means. An example, please?

When you trust you don’t need to test, do you? But in any case, trust is what you place in someone without any pre-existing proof, no guarantees. Hopefully you know that already. Do you not trust in anyone? Trusting in God means you accept that you control nothing but your own choices and accept Him as the One in Control and that His will is the right way even if you don’t get what you think is best for you. You turn your life over to Him for Him to guide you in the decisions you are confronted with to make and in giving you the strength to overcome those things that are harmful to your salvation. But in no way is trust limited to these alone.

No, it is not ironic at all. When I am told that touching 220V will bring serious consequences, then I can test this claim without endangering myself and see if the claim is true. That does not apply to your claim. Why should I trust you or anyone else, who claims that they speak for God? The fact that you would test with due safety is the proof that you would listen to the warning without being able to physically see if there is a danger.

After all, if you are right, then the consequences are much more dire than a shock from 220V. Your claim is not based on something that can be independently verified. Why should I trust you? You said “when they are told about the consequences” they should heed the warning. Why should they trust you or anyone else? On what ground can anyone claim that God speaks from their mouth? Answer this, please!
in order for you to have survived in life this far you have trusted at times without verification. That is part of learning. you don’t have to trust anyone’s word for it, you only need to have enough self interest to look into it and verify the truth for yourself and it can be done if one cares to. And you never know who or what God may utilize to get a message to you or a point across. Not that I think God is speaking through me but, you would not know unless you were open to Him in the first place.

Not a big difference. As the old joke went:

Old Cohen married a young, beautiful lady. His friend Grun asked him “Why did you marry her? You are old and ugly, she is young and beautiful. She will cheat on you!” Old Cohen winked and answered: “Because I prefer to have a 50% partnership in a good business, than to be a sole proprietor of a bad one.”

Whether I wanted to continue this relationship or not, is not the question. The point is that in neither circumstance would I blame her and be vindictive toward her.
not an answer but ok.

Your answer has nothing to do with what I said: “a loving person is there to help when the need arises and does not shove it unto other people’s shoulders.”
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Absolutely. But a person who loves you would not nor could not force you against your will to love them in return, he would let you go your own way, right? (seems I’ve heard that somewhere before) :rolleyes: God lets you go your own way if that is your choice. And yes, I did answer you but you didn’t understand it.

If you would like to continue this conversation it would be an idea to start another thread. I do not wish to block teach’s thread any longer and thank you again, teach for your understanding.
 
twb1621 said:
Thank you Teach…

If you would like to continue this conversation it would be an idea to start another thread. I do not wish to block teach’s thread any longer and thank you again, teach for your understanding.
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No problem. It’s better to derail a thread than to have someone misled.

If anyone is left with ideas from my OP I am willing to hear them. Thanks to all who already responded…God Bless…teachccd 🙂
 
teachccd said:
No problem. It’s better to derail a thread than to have someone misled.

If anyone is left with ideas from my OP I am willing to hear them. Thanks to all who already responded…God Bless…teachccd 🙂
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I did intend to comment on the actual question teach, in that what I perceive is although God’s presence is felt by those in hell, and perhaps they have an awareness of His presence and heaven I believe it is outside of hell in that just as the sinner called up from the abyss in thirst and asked for salvation by warning his brothers, he was told there is no passage back and forth from heaven to his place. He could see heaven but not reach. I do not believe God to be in hell but in the existence of the awareness of Him in some way above. This is my opinion.
 
twb1621 said:
I did intend to comment on the actual question teach, in that what I perceive is although God’s presence is felt by those in hell, and perhaps they have an awareness of His presence and heaven I believe it is outside of hell in that just as the sinner called up from the abyss in thirst and asked for salvation by warning his brothers, he was told there is no passage back and forth from heaven to his place. He could see heaven but not reach. I do not believe God to be in hell but in the existence of the awareness of Him in some way above. This is my opinion.
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Thank you. Yes, it does not make sense, theologically to say that God “is in hell” since that is not part of His essence. You did clarify that there is no place void of His presence even to those who eternally separated themselves from Him. (And that assumes that someone is in hell which the Church remains silent concerning judgment to damnation)

Any other thoughts or do I leave it at that?? …teachccd 🙂
 
teachccd said:
Understanding that God is omnipresent, does His existence encompass those in hell? This was a discussion that was raised in my confirmation class and I explained that God is omnipresent and sustains all of His creation. Even those in hell are sustained by God even though they will experience an eternal absence of His exstence. While those in hell are veiled (separated) from God by their own choice while on earth and remain that way for all eternity, God is still present among them. Any thoughts??
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Maybe it is as St. Isaac of Nineveh said, that the Grace of God acts in two ways. For those in heaven it acts to increase their love and for those in hell it causes them to feel the pain of a hurt love. Kind of like a man who has cheated on his wife might feel a great pain because of the pain he has caused his wife those in hell might experience an analogous pain.
 
teachccd said:
Thank you so much!! Such insight…Peace, Teachccd:)
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I’m glad you found that helpful, Teachccd 🙂 - a very wise priest I know who instructed a small group of us in a study of Scripture is the one who first brought me to this understanding.
 
Here is the St. Isaac statement I mentioned.
As for me I say that those who are tormented in hell are tormented by the invasion of love. What is there more bitter and violent than the pains of love? Those who feel they have sinned against love bear in themselves a damnation much heavier than the most dreaded punishments. The suffering with which sinning against love afflicts the heart is more keenly felt than any other torment. It is absurd to assume that the sinners in hell are deprived of God’s love. Love is offered impartially. But by its very power it acts in two ways. It torments sinners, as happens here on earth when we are tormented by the presence of a friend to whom we have been unfaithful. And it gives joy to those who have been faithful.
That is what the torment of hell is in my opinion: remorse. But love inebriates the souls of the sons and daughters of heaven by its delectability.
 
teachccd said:
Thank you. Yes, it does not make sense, theologically to say that God “is in hell” since that is not part of His essence. You did clarify that there is no place void of His presence even to those who eternally separated themselves from Him. (And that assumes that someone is in hell which the Church remains silent concerning judgment to damnation)

Any other thoughts or do I leave it at that?? …teachccd 🙂
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because you are teaching CCD and considering the probable lack of in depth knowledge they have in the Faith (if I am correct in that these are children or new to the faith) I would be satisfied in providing this as an answer to them with the understanding no one can really say for certain. To say that God is “in” hell sounds like in the physical sense and that would only confuse the issue but again, just my thought on it. Actually, because God is “everywhere” does not mean He is in hell any more than Him being mercyful and forgiving means He is not Just when necessary.
 
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