God in time?

[junostarlighter]

Here’s 3 arguments that were given to me for God’s existence in time:

ARGUMENT #1: Temporal relations
(P1) Either God stands in a temporal or atemporal relation to our
world.
(P2) If God stands in a temporal relation, then he is in time (idea:
anyone who stands in a temporal relation to a world that is in time is himself in time)
(P3) If God stands in an atemporal relation to our world, then time
is not real. (idea: if our world were in time, then God would stand in a temporal relation to it - this would allow him to know what time it is).
(P4) Time is real.
(C1) Hence, God is in time.

LOGIC
(P1) A or B
(P2) If A, then C.
(P3) If B, then D
(P4) Not D.
(C1) Hence, C.

ARGUMENT #2: Acting in time
(P1) God acts in time.
(P2) If God acts in time, then he is in time. (idea: metaphor - if
one puts his hand in the river, then he is in part in the river)
(C1) Hence, God is in time.

ARGUMENT #3: Everything is in time (idea: time is a fundamental feature of the world and hence everything, or at least every concrete particular, is in it)

Anything wrong with them?

 

[CapIV]

They are false premises. P2 and P3 in argument one attempt to define that which is indefinable. According to Aquinas, God is the Eternal Law; that which is perfect. Humans are imperfect by their nature. Therefore, man cannot fully know or comprehend God except by the limited means of Natural Law.

The point being, as soon as you try and define God in purely human terms, the premise is a false one since God by His nature cannot be fully understood by man.

Since we have no way of comprehending that which goes beyond our limited reality, (as such is the case with time) we have no means of analyzing that which is beyond our reasoning.

Such is the case with the Trinity. We can never know HOW God achieves the Trinity. We can only grasp that it is truth by our limited reason through Natural Law. But we still do not fully understand and can never fully understand the nature of the Trinity perfectly as God or Eternal Law would.

 

[Darrel]

If time is an actual constant in the universe that can be bent and manipulated like space or gravity, then I think it would be safe to assume that God created time and that he is beyond it and seperate from it.

-D

 

[junostarlighter]

you know what i just realized? could all these arguments be undercut by saying that time is not real?

hmmm…

 

[txsoldier94]

God IS.

That’s all.

Mik

 

[jimmy85]

If time is an actual constant in the universe that can be bent and manipulated like space or gravity, then I think it would be safe to assume that God created time and that he is beyond it and seperate from it.

-D

I believe that Special Relativity states that space and time are only one thing. Without space you cant have time and without time you cant have space. God is a spiritual substance so you are right he is beyond time and seperated from it.

 

[Verbum]

Hi Juno__,

You state that if God were not in time then time would not be real.

As a matter of fact, time is not real; it is a measure of motion. In our case, it’s the measure of the earth’s motion around the sun and the motion of the earth on its axis. Without bodies there is no motion and no space; without motion and space there is no time.

Verbum

 

[FrankSchnabel]

Hey all,

there must be something we can call God’s time which is unlike our time. But that God is temporal in some sense seems true. God acts. God does stuff. And He interacts with His creation. His creation affects Him. He affects it. His Creation experiences time and his Creation, according to Scriputre, lives and moves and has its being in Him. God experiences time in His own unique way. But He is temporal.

 

[jimmy85]

ARGUMENT #2: Acting in time
(P1) God acts in time.
(P2) If God acts in time, then he is in time. (idea: metaphor - if
one puts his hand in the river, then he is in part in the river)
(C1) Hence, God is in time.

ARGUMENT #3: Everything is in time (idea: time is a fundamental feature of the world and hence everything, or at least every concrete particular, is in it)

Anything wrong with them?

God surpases time, becuase time has to do with space and with our reality, and God surpases our reality.

Time is relative. If you travel in a rocket at near the speed of light your time would run slower relative with the time of someone in the earth. So God basicaly cant exist only in time, he surpases it becuase time could run diferently, faster or slower it depends of the person you would use as a references.
Everyone has his own separated time, so your time is diferent than mine.

There is a new theory call Quantum Loop Gravity and it proposes a radical idea, it says that space and time may not be continuous but it claims that space comes in descrete small lumps called quantum of spacetime that are of the side of 10–99 cubic centimeter.

This theory propose that time is created by the “move” that takes place on this quantum of spacetime.

Time flows not like a river but like the ticking of a clock, with “ticks” that are about as long as the Planck time:10–43 second. Or, more precisely, time in our universe flows by the ticking of innumerable clocks in a sense, at every location in the spin foam where a quantum of spacetime “move” takes place, a clock at that location has ticked once.

The difference in time from one tick to the next is approximately the Planck time, 10–43 second. “But time does not exist in between the ticks”; there is no “in between,” in the same way that there is no water in between two adjacent molecules of water.

So perhaps time may not be continuous after all it may all just be a consequenze of having space.

 

[Verbum]

Hi Frank,

there must be something we can call God’s time which is unlike our time.

God is one pure simple eternal act. He knows everything from eternity. His decisions are from eternity. When he acts “in time”, whatever he “does” has been decided from eternity – outside of time.

As St. Thomas Aquinas says, “eternity is the measure of a permanent being; while time is a measure of movement.”

God does not change, does not “move”, does not “decide” or “change HIs mind”.

For St. Thomas’ complete discussion of time and eternity, see

newadvent.org/summa/1010.htm

Verbum

 

[geekborj]

you know what i just realized? could all these arguments be undercut by saying that time is not real?

hmmm…

Time is real. Without time, space and matter could not exist. We will not exist. God created time because “In the beginning…” Time is the like the canvass where we are painted.

God is BOTH within and without the time – that is He is beyond time. Being beyond time, He is also beyond any thinking that is bounded by time. Just as St. Thomas argues, humans are within the bounds of time and thus, can never comprehend God.

Historically speaking, It is God who indeed reaches down to us and gives revelations of Himself. The perfect and final revelation being Jesus Himself, the Son of God and the Son of Man.

 

[ateista]

Hey all,

there must be something we can call God’s time which is unlike our time. But that God is temporal in some sense seems true. God acts. God does stuff. And He interacts with His creation. His creation affects Him. He affects it. His Creation experiences time and his Creation, according to Scriputre, lives and moves and has its being in Him. God experiences time in His own unique way. But He is temporal.

Hey Frankie!

I have argued the same thing for quite a long “time”. If God “acts” in any manner - even if it is a magical act - then there is “time”. Action - any kind of action - presupposes a change, and that presupposes a time before the change, and a time after the change.

In a thread I started a long “time” ago, the opposing side eventually denied that God “acts” - which is in clear contradiction to the Bible. Funny stuff, indeed!

 

[MH84]

Hey Frankie!

I have argued the same thing for quite a long “time”. If God “acts” in any manner - even if it is a magical act - then there is “time”. Action - any kind of action - presupposes a change, and that presupposes a time before the change, and a time after the change.

In a thread I started a long “time” ago, the opposing side eventually denied that God “acts” - which is in clear contradiction to the Bible. Funny stuff, indeed!

Isnt time just a product of creation? Without creation there is no time. I think that is why Christians believe God exists outside of time.

Otherwise the the Christian belief in the Trinity would not be true, because we believe that each of the divine Persons eternally exist. i.e. no Person was created by another. For example, the Son was begotten by the Father, not in time, but eternally begotten.

 

[ateista]

Isnt time just a product of creation? Without creation there is no time. I think that is why Christians believe God exists outside of time.

The word “creation” implies the concept of time, because their is an instant before the creation and another after the creation. To deny this is to deny the “act” of creation. As the Bible states: “God said, let there be light and there was light”.

Otherwise the the Christian belief in the Trinity would not be true, because we believe that each of the divine Persons eternally exist. i.e. no Person was created by another. For example, the Son was begotten by the Father, not in time, but eternally begotten.

The concept of the Trinity is simply a contradiction, one of many the Christian belief system. Of course it is “called” a mystery… but it does not matter what it is called. A contradiction by any other name is still a contradiction, and as such it cannot exist.

 

[MH84]

The word “creation” implies the concept of time, because their is an instant before the creation and another after the creation. To deny this is to deny the “act” of creation. As the Bible states: “God said, let there be light and there was light”.

God didnt need to literally say that. God just wills something and it is. I think the author of Genesis was just expressing this event (creation) in that way.

I don’t see how there has to be an “instant” before the creation. It was made, that’s that. I don’t think you can rationalise something like this. You either believe that creation was willed by God or you don’t.

However, I myself feel a bit suspicious when people say that something is unexplainable, because often it is just unexplainable for that particular person. But in this case, I don’t think anyway can explain the creation process, but that doesnt mean I wouldnt be open to someone’s opinion about this, I guess.

 

[ateista]

God didnt need to literally say that. God just wills something and it is. I think the author of Genesis was just expressing this event (creation) in that way.

I don’t see how there has to be an “instant” before the creation. It was made, that’s that. I don’t think you can rationalise something like this. You either believe that creation was willed by God or you don’t.

It does not matter if God said it or willed it. The method itself is irrelevant.

What does matter that according to the Bible God was first - and then - he used some “method” to create the universe. Time is clearly involved - unless you wish to insinuate that God and the universe always existed - simultaneously.

Which would be in contradiction to what the Bible says, and what all the believers assert. You can’t have it both ways. Either you believe that the universe was created by God, and then time is involved, or not.

 

[geekborj]

The word “creation” implies the concept of time, because their is an instant before the creation and another after the creation. To deny this is to deny the “act” of creation. As the Bible states: “God said, let there be light and there was light”.

Indeed, God must have created time. It is interesting to note that “during” God’s creation of the universe, He just “SAID” something to happen and it “DID” happen! Where do you think all the Laws of Nature that our good Scientist have so far discovered came from? Time and space (including what we call “dimension”) are very essential for the Laws of Nature to be operative and not contradict themselves. But: where did time and space came from? I say, God said so. Too bad, we don’t hear exactly what He had said that’s why our Laws are still THEORIES.

The concept of the Trinity is simply a contradiction, one of many the Christian belief system. Of course it is “called” a mystery… but it does not matter what it is called. A contradiction by any other name is still a contradiction, and as such it cannot exist.

How do you say it is a contradiction when your basis of argument is based on a LIMITED knowledge of this world/universe? Are you even sure that our current level of Reason and Science is perfect? Even Science itself does not claim to be exact, final, and/or perfect. Something is a Christian mystery because we still struggle for its full understanding. In this, we do not just depend on our own Reason but also from the grace of our God. Science does the same for the Laws of Nature, ever depending on Reason ALONE – and that is tough, as you would say, too. For Catholic Christians, every Scientific milestone is an added praise to the Word of God when He created the world by just “saying it to be so.”

 

[ateista]

Indeed, God must have created time.

But you should say that God created OUR time. Any act of God, be it saying, or willing or whatever magical method he used, presupposes some kind of “time”. It is totally nonsensical to say that God eternally “willed” a miracle (for example) which manifested itself at a specific point in OUR time.

How do you say it is a contradiction when your basis of argument is based on a LIMITED knowledge of this world/universe? Are you even sure that our current level of Reason and Science is perfect? Even Science itself does not claim to be exact, final, and/or perfect. Something is a Christian mystery because we still struggle for its full understanding. In this, we do not just depend on our own Reason but also from the grace of our God. Science does the same for the Laws of Nature, ever depending on Reason ALONE – and that is tough, as you would say, too. For Catholic Christians, every Scientific milestone is an added praise to the Word of God when He created the world by just “saying it to be so.”

There is a fundamental difference between a scientific unsolved problem and the assertion that God is both one and three. There is nothing mysterious about conceiving one thing and understanding that it is one thing, not three.

 

[geekborj]

But you should say that God created OUR time. Any act of God, be it saying, or willing or whatever magical method he used, presupposes some kind of “time”. It is totally nonsensical to say that God eternally “willed” a miracle (for example) which manifested itself at a specific point in OUR time.

I don’t want to say “created OUR time” because that would be assuming that God exists in His own time probably on a higher dimension. Thus, our concept of reality (space and time) is dependent on the very act of creation of time and space itself. Beyond which, we cannot grasp completely and thus, God included.

There is a fundamental difference between a scientific unsolved problem and the assertion that God is both one and three. There is nothing mysterious about conceiving one thing and understanding that it is one thing, not three.

I beg to disagree about the idea that Christians “assert” this truth. Rather we believe it because God said so through Jesus, then to the Apostles and so on.

As for the “fundamental difference,” can you expound your point?

 

[ateista]

I don’t want to say “created OUR time” because that would be assuming that God exists in His own time probably on a higher dimension.

Not necessily in “space”, but necessarily in some kind of “time”. If there is an action (of creation), then there is some kind of a change which presupposes some kind of a time. It can be incomprehenisble to us, but its existence id derived from the concept of action.

I beg to disagree about the idea that Christians “assert” this truth. Rather we believe it because God said so through Jesus, then to the Apostles and so on.

As for the “fundamental difference,” can you expound your point?

I did in the thread about the illogical aspects of Christianity. Please read it there.