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bpbasilphx
Guest
This is on the mental level of “Can God make a stone so big He can’t pick it up or roll it?”
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EB4304
Guest
Hi Agnos Theist
I don’t agree with your reasoning because you have an ambiguous term in your argument. “Higher” power can mean two things - higher than oneself or a supremely powerful being. You take it to mean the first, but I could just as easily take it to mean the second. You need to define your terms clearly and unambiguously otherwise you have a fallacious argument.
I don’t agree with your reasoning because you have an ambiguous term in your argument. “Higher” power can mean two things - higher than oneself or a supremely powerful being. You take it to mean the first, but I could just as easily take it to mean the second. You need to define your terms clearly and unambiguously otherwise you have a fallacious argument.
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EB4304
Guest
Also, even given your terms, the argument is logically flawed Here’s your argument in the form of a syllogism.
An atheist doesn’t believe in a power higher than himself
God doesn’t believe in a power higher than himself
Therefore God is an atheist
This is a false syllogism. You can’t have a positive conclusion from even one negative premise. But two negative premises aren’t allowed - it’s a logical fallacy. The technical, logical reason is because the two negative premise deny that there is any relationship between God (the subject) and atheist (the predicate). Any philosopher or logician would tell you that this argument isn’t valid.
An atheist doesn’t believe in a power higher than himself
God doesn’t believe in a power higher than himself
Therefore God is an atheist
This is a false syllogism. You can’t have a positive conclusion from even one negative premise. But two negative premises aren’t allowed - it’s a logical fallacy. The technical, logical reason is because the two negative premise deny that there is any relationship between God (the subject) and atheist (the predicate). Any philosopher or logician would tell you that this argument isn’t valid.
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latin_rite
Guest
Are you saying God doesn’t believe in himself? maybe he should go on oprah or dr phil. for some of that “believe in oneself” they are going on about.
atheist don’t believe in God/s. The higher power thing that you are trying to bring into the argument is void. As this is a christian forum i will talk about the Christian God. Christians say " i believe in a higher power" they are talking about God. when a atheist say they don’t believe in a higher power they mean God. saying higher power is just the same as saying God. so how an anyone/ anything think they don’t excist?
I’m sure God’s faith is restored every time he looks in a mirror. (thats if he does, and i dont mean he goes around looking at a mirror but you get the jist of what i’m saying.)
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swariffin
Guest
Dear Agnos,
You are really good playing with definition of words. Please define atheist and agnostic with respect to you.
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Lion_of_Narnia
Guest
I have come to the conclusion, having reached the 47th year of my life, that when ANYONE uses a “unique” definition of a word that departs from the common meaning(s) (i.e. contemporary dictionary usage) they are trying to advance a position that cannot be otherwise supported except by distortion and misrepresentation. In other words, said persons are 'trying to put one over on you"
Examples:
“Christianity is not a religion”—used by some fundamentalists to attack Catholicism or even mainstream Protestant denominations, because “Christianity is a personal realtionship with Jesus”
or
“Catholicism is a “cult””—used by anti-catholic fundamentalists for whom any religion is a “cult” if it doesnt teach their version of “sola scriptora” and “sola fide”
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David_Poem
Guest
You have a God of your understanding.The God of my understanding is not a atheist.he is a spiritual being.Humans can call themselfs what ever they want.They have a choice.Everone when they die have to stand befor God and give acounts of the life they lead.The laws were set down to show man that he is a sinful person.Jesus die and paid the price in full .He loves us and wants us to seek forgivness so He will stand be for God with us .This is our salavion(comin home}.This is the spirtual principle call having Faith.There is hope for you too if you are willing.
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mchale
Guest
Not in the literal sense, no, but an atheist can and sometimes has given himself the authority to do things a theist would hold belongs to God. An atheist might well decide that the normal moral standards (which in his view are human defined) do not apply to him. Certainly such a view was held by Stalin. And I would submit that such a view is held by many non-religious scientists today who skirt ethical lines like those presented by embryonic stem cell research.
On the contrary. The concept might have originated within Christianity, but the idea itself is supported by modern Cosmology. The Universe has a definite beginning which includes a beginning to time. If the Universe has a first cause (as a theist would argue God is), then that first cause, by definition, must exist outside of time (since a cause cannot exist within the effect, and time is part of the effect of the Universe).
Well, that is a rather cynical viewpoint. Ultimately, people who hold such viewpoints generally don’t believe in true altruism… And therefore, this line of argument can’t really be productive.
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Bill
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mchale
Guest
Actually, there are ways to construct his argument such that it makes a valid syllogism. Logically it can be made to work. The promise is that the initial premise is flawed.
An atheist might believe in a power higher than themselves and still be an atheist. For example, a communist true believer might believe that his movement is a higher power than himself (and therefore worth dieing for), but that doesn’t make him a theist.
Ultimately, the premise is built upon sophistry so that Agnos can claim God is an atheist. The more proper definition of atheism (the lack of a belief in the existence of God or gods) would exclude his argument since God knows that God exists.
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Bill
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theistgal
Guest
Yes, I have been an atheist, and have been on the receiving end of those scare tactics, so I know exactly what you’re talking about.
Would you agree, though, that there is a difference between (a) believing that Hell exists and trying to warn others about what you believe to be a real danger; and (b) threatening others with it because you believe you’re better than they are and they deserve it more than you do?
There are certainly plenty of the latter group; way too many, and they ought to consider the fact that they’ll be judged the way they judge others.
However, I hope you can see what I’m talking about re: the first group. Whether or not you believe a Hell exists, if someone else does, can you understand why they might want to warn you about it?
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David_Poem
Guest
So what God not a Atheist.You in the wronge place for your views.You need to go back to school and retake EnglishThe Atheist believes he is God. According to christians and some atheists.
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ToddM
Guest
If God is omniscient, wouldn’t it follow that belief is excluded?
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ToddM
Guest
This is exactly the type of place for his views. In charity, I hopefully believe the poster of these views has some desire for truth as any other human being not 1/3 dead. I also respect someone in a potentially antagonistic environment ‘mounting up’ and challenging my views. I don’t mean to overdo the ‘mys and I’s’ but I don’t wish to be overly presumptuous. I would hope that as long as there is a modicum of mutual respect, we can continue.
It is easy to find agreement, or disagreement for their own sake.
Aren’t Catholics supposed to engage the culture, or is this more of
a site meant to strictly bolster the faith? Aren’t Christians to be ready to defend?
I’m for going a few rounds in good spirit, personally.
I mean no needless offense, and apologize if this is the case.
God bless yall. ding ding
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