God is everywhere, therefore hell does not exist

[Sure]

God is the cause of all existence. All those in hell exist through His will alone. But they reject Him and live in utter pain and suffering because they know that they are separated from the One who loves them and made them…what could be worse?

Even Satan is good insofar as he exists.

 

[CesarAugusto]

I think the term “presence” implies existing in space. For example, if I say that I’m present in this room, I mean that my material body is here (though my mind may be somewhere else .

When we say that God is everywhere, we definitely don’t mean to say that he is materially everywhere, for he is pure spirit. The expression must mean something else.

In my opinion, “God is everywhere” means that all creation exists and continues to exist because of God and his Will. It is his will that maintains everything in its state of “being”, including the souls in hell (or “in the state of hell” if you don’t want to think of hell as a material place).

Therefore you can still have God everywhere and the existance of Hell. The fact that God wills souls to exist doesn’t make these souls to choose to be with Him.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Sin is a rejection of God and His will.

God is everywhere is not “good” Theology. God could be everywhere if He so chose but he has given us the freedom to choose to do evil and as a result a being of the ultimate good can not be present in evil or evil action. If God were present in evil or evil action, that would be part of His nature and essence. Since God is not evil nor is it part of His nature, it would stand to reason that he can not be part of it as well.

I am afraid we are going to tie ourselves into a theological Gordian knot or walk the mobius strip full circle if we get any more abstract. Let me regress one more turn on the spindle and see if I can resolve the competing truths I think we each have. These must remain consistent or one or both of us is wrong.

So let me come at it from an “awesome perspective” of God. Let me ask rhetorically: "Can evil entities choose to promote or elevate themselves simply by segregating God away from them through an act of dismissing God; as if to deny God the authority and power to prevent Him from entering into their own “off limits” abode or “safe haven”? In other words "Does God permit evil the power to dismiss God and tell God that He May not enter into their domain since they don’t want Him there? I say no. Or if he does it is done in a way that becomes self evident its not by their will.

I think from a perspective of omniscience this begs another question. So forgetting angelic beings for a moment, “Does God still respect expressions of active free will after death”?

I think it safe to say the answer is “No - God only permits free will while humans are still in a formative state of life where they remain viable to the opportunity to respond to His invitation to be His children”. At physical death the life choices have already been manifest and judgement is made and is irrevocable. In heaven we are of one mind with God and never outside His Will.

Thus the question rolls up and it becomes clear to me anyway that God will not permit a damned creature to assert the impression of self authority through the mechanism of a rejection that operates to deny God control of a deliberately separated “dominion of the damned”. I suspect God in fact binds Satan to the slave-task of administering God’s Justice while God Himself reserves the right to enter Hell anytime (in a way consistent with His nature) to administer personal punishment in any way He sees fit. I maintain that we simply can not know how precisely God can penetrate Hell to invoke personal punishment in a way that remains consistent with all scripture as well as His nature. But some of the saints definitely tell us that God has personal forms of punishments as well as the general torment that goes on.

I think we can harmonize our differences if we can make the distinction that all of God’s beneficial grace (excepting that residual grace necessary for God to permit the object of God’s Justice to operate on to exist - e.g. the soul) is removed from souls in Hell. However, that does not mean that God is not present in the pain and torture of the certain knowledge of abject “absence” of beneficial grace. That is, there must be a lingering impression or memory or a specific knowledge retained of His existence and His magnificence to create a burden of guilt and loss. To me, then the denial of beneficial grace intensifies the original memory of God in the condemned. That in the condition of an unfathomable solitude and self awareness of that pitiful existence in essence forms a presence of God in the consciousness of the damned. Thus God is present through the mechanism and actions of His perpetual Justice - specifically letting the damned soul live to suffer and remember God.

I simplify it all by seeing God as having both beneficial grace as well as awesome dominion that is so profound that God asserts Himself through the contrast of absence of that same grace. This becomes an active expression of Justice in a way that does not empower evil in a way that it can mistake to think it can tell God where He may not come. Thus God can assert both His dominion and His presence in Hell by withholding beneficial grace but while permitting the damned to recollect a memory and a certain knowledge of Himself. I personally think God reveals a greater dimension of His magnificence before condemning a soul to Hell for the purpose of intensify the perpetual envy for those that chose Him.

Thus I conclude that God exists in Hell in a “special”, “ordered” but seperate way (through the structure of justice); but in a way that only serves to punish the damned without giving an impression that evil has an authority onto itself to deny Him access to perpetual Justice.

James

 

[tm30]

God created all things. God cannot create something which lacks His presence, because that which lacks His presence is evil. If we agree that Hell is total separation from God, then God cannot be present in Hell, per se. Therefore, hell cannot be a created place. It’s a “state” of existence" in which the fire of God scorches the soul which, due to its unforgivable sin, cannot bear His Light.

Revelation 14: 9-10

9]
And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If any one worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,

10] he also shall drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured unmixed into the cup of his anger, and he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

If the worshipers of the beast are tormented with fire and sulfer in the presence of the God and His angels, then hell is not a “place” at all, but the condition of eternal despair, regret, and hatred of the Creator and all those who enjoy the beatific vision they cannot share - ever! Imagine how magnified this torment is for these souls in proximity to those who are experiencing eternal bliss!

 

[bogeydogg]

I have my own ideas on how to respond to this statement by a friend of a friend. But what would you say to someone who speculates that there can be no hell because “God is everywhere so how can a person be totally separated from Him???”

Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

To be in Hell is to be faced with the righteous fury of a Holy God who gives the justice which the unrepentant sinner takes upon himself when he refuses the intermediatory work of Christ on his behalf. Those who spend eternity in Hell will be there because they chose to be there, but if the people in Hell could take a poll of who they would most like to leave Hell I’m betting they would vote God out of Hell first and foremost.

The notion that Satan is the ruler of Hell is Pagan to the utmost and smacks of Greek Mythology and the idea of a god of the underworld, but Satan is not the ruler of Hell. Satan will be tortured for all eternity in Hell because he rebelled against God and, just a hunch, I’m betting he won’t torture himself.

God is the sovereign ruler of Hell and it is the very fury of His wrath which I believe the images of fire and smoke deal with. It is the utter destruction of those who rebel against God, in the same fashion as the smoke from Sodom and Gamorrah could be seen for miles around, so the fire which is not quenched and the worm which does not die is plainly apparent to a Holy God who will finally and utterly seperate them and remove all grace and mercy from them to be exposed to His consuming fire and to face that reality for all eternity.

 

[bill210]

I have my own ideas on how to respond to this statement by a friend of a friend. But what would you say to someone who speculates that there can be no hell because “God is everywhere so how can a person be totally separated from Him???”

This argument is based on the assumption that Hell is a physical place but I suggest to you that Hell is a willful choice to reject God and thus it becomes an eternal death without the ability to die. [The second death of scripture].
God is love as scripture says so the rejection of love is it’s opposite. Eternal hate.

 

[Bishopite]

I have my own ideas on how to respond to this statement by a friend of a friend. But what would you say to someone who speculates that there can be no hell because “God is everywhere so how can a person be totally separated from Him???”

What or who tells this person that God is everywhere?

 

[bluemug]

Heaven(100%)…90%…80%… …30%…20%…10%…0%(Hell).
Heaven :a state where God/Love is in absolute presence.
Hell: absolute absence of God/Love.
Saints are in Heaven, because their mind have 100% Love.They are peaceful,at the 100% happiest state.
Sinful human spirit, might have 80%… 20%…10%Love. Depends on where about along the scale their Love(God)(Good) is, that also shows how much troubles or happiness is in their mind.
I can’t think of any human who does not have even a drop (0.1%) of love/goodness. For example: --probably, Hitler loved himself, or he entered purgatory in remorse ( who knows…) , --also, in the end Judas Iscariot was in remorse. God is unconditionally forgiving, the Lord came not to judge but save the world. There is Purgatory as an extra time/gift to repent.I think God love us so much that He would do ANYthing to make us not to enter Hell.
Could it be that Devil is the only one in Hell ( absence of God), then?
I am getting confused myself…
But if Hell=absence of God, then Hell= state of vacuum/nothing , then probably is nowhere??not exist??
If we go towards the very right side of the above scale, then 10 % can be called very closed to Hell? (there is still a bit of God’s presence).

 

[JoeyWarren]

*Think about it… *
**
If Hell is real, why didn’t God make that warning plain right at the beginning of the Bible? God said the penalty for eating of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was death- -not “eternal life” in fire and brimstone.

If Hell is real, why wasn’t Cain warned about it, or Sodom and Gomorrah , or any of those who committed the earliest recorded “sins?”

If Hell is real why didn’t Moses warn about this fate in the Ten Commandments or the Mosaic Covenant consisting of over 600 laws, ordinances, and warnings? The Mosaic Law simply stated blessings and cursings in this lifetime.

If Hell is real, why are its roots in paganism, rather than the Bible? Many nations surrounding Israel in the Old Testament believed in Hell-like punishment in the afterlife, for they served bloodthirsty and evil “gods,” while Israel simply taught the grave (sheol) and a hope of a resurrection. If Hell is real, why was the revelation of it first given to pagan nations, instead of God’s covenant people? Did God expect Israel to learn about the afterlife from the Pagan Gentiles? If so, why did He repeatedly warn Israel to not learn of their ways?

If Hell is real, why did God tell the Jews that burning their children alive in the fire to the false god Molech, (in the valley of Gehenna ) was so detestable to Him? God said that such a thing “never even entered His mind” (Jer. 32:35). How could God say such a thing to Israel , if He has plans to burn alive a good majority of His own creation in a spiritual and eternal Gehenna of His own making?

**FACT: The King James Bible erroneously translates the word “Sheol” as Hell a total of 31 times in the Old Testament, thus setting a foundation for that doctrine in the New Testament as well as the majority of Bible translations to follow the KJV. Even so, most new translations have completely eliminated Hell from the Old Testament, as honest and better scholarship has demanded. The Jewish version of the Old Testament (the Tanakh) has no concept of Hell in it. The importance of this fact cannot be over-emphasized. If a doctrine does not appear as seed form in the books of the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms, it cannot fairly be taught as a major biblical doctrine, if indeed it can be taught as biblical at all!

 

[CentralFLJames]

Heaven(100%)…90%…80%… …30%…20%…10%…0%(Hell).
Heaven :a state where God/Love is in absolute presence.
Hell: absolute absence of God/Love.
Saints are in Heaven, because their mind have 100% Love.They are peaceful,at the 100% happiest state.
Sinful human spirit, might have 80%… 20%…10%Love. Depends on where about along the scale their Love(God)(Good) is, that also shows how much troubles or happiness is in their mind.
I can’t think of any human who does not have even a drop (0.1%) of love/goodness. For example: --probably, Hitler loved himself, or he entered purgatory in remorse ( who knows…) , --also, in the end Judas Iscariot was in remorse. God is unconditionally forgiving, the Lord came not to judge but save the world. There is Purgatory as an extra time/gift to repent.I think God love us so much that He would do ANYthing to make us not to enter Hell.
Could it be that Devil is the only one in Hell ( absence of God), then?
I am getting confused myself…
But if Hell=absence of God, then Hell= state of vacuum/nothing , then probably is nowhere??not exist??
If we go towards the very right side of the above scale, then 10 % can be called very closed to Hell? (there is still a bit of God’s presence).

Sorry - but works of the saints indicate that there are millions and millions of souls that are in hell. God’s Justice is a perfect as His Mercy. But if one dies without asking for His mercy and forgiveness then one has rejected God essentially all one’s life. Such souls who die impenetent in grave sin (self love) go straight to Hell. Hell is not a state of mind - it s a place of punishment. Yet God is so merciful that if He did not extend His mercy even to Hell the separation of the soul from God would be infinitely more torturous than Hell is said to be at its worst levels. Hell is very real do not make the mistake of thinking “few” go there since we know from scripture that “many” can not enter heaven.

There is little doubt that Judas is in Hell since His name often comes up among those possessed during the exorcism of demons and evil beings. And only an Arian or a Nazi would even bother to assume Hitler is not in Hell since he had contempt not only for Jews but for humanity. His own suicide at the end shows that he was like Judas and did not believe in God’s mercy or ability to forgive. Killing oneself is not an acceptable sacrifice to God and essentially mocks and tries to belittle the perfect sacrifice and sufficiency of Jesus. In these two cases its most likely that their acts of suicide were more like self worship and disbelief in God’s power and majesty and not an act of repentance nor humility - it is despair.

Yes, God is forgiving because He loves His son Jesus so much that Her permits Jesus’ suffering and merits to be sufficient to obliterate the sins of men and to equitably satisfy the principals of His Justice. But no man is forgiven of his sins if he does not ask for mercy in a humble and sincere way with the intention of trying to change from his sins. God will not be mocked.

The one unforgivable sin is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. That happens when one ignores the Holy Spirit’s incessant pleading to change one’s life and return to God, ask for forgiveness if ones dies impenitent. Those dieing impenitent can not be forgiven since they have already rejected God. This is why it is important to have last rites or to have petitioned God during one’s life for final grace for perfect contrition at the occasion of one’s death. There are many devotional prayers that have the guarantee of final repentance (e.g. devotion to the sacred heart of Jesus) to escape hell. Every good Catholic wanting to have the joy and peace of knowing that Jesus is their personal guarantor should do these devotionals. Given the eternal consequences of dieing impenitent only the most lazy or most indifferent or most foolish would not do them.

 

[CentralFLJames]

*Think about it… *
**
If Hell is real, why didn’t God make that warning plain right at the beginning of the Bible? God said the penalty for eating of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was death- -not “eternal life” in fire and brimstone.

If Hell is real, why wasn’t Cain warned about it, or Sodom and Gomorrah , or any of those who committed the earliest recorded “sins?”

If Hell is real why didn’t Moses warn about this fate in the Ten Commandments or the Mosaic Covenant consisting of over 600 laws, ordinances, and warnings? The Mosaic Law simply stated blessings and cursings in this lifetime.

If Hell is real, why are its roots in paganism, rather than the Bible? Many nations surrounding Israel in the Old Testament believed in Hell-like punishment in the afterlife, for they served bloodthirsty and evil “gods,” while Israel simply taught the grave (sheol) and a hope of a resurrection. If Hell is real, why was the revelation of it first given to pagan nations, instead of God’s covenant people? Did God expect Israel to learn about the afterlife from the Pagan Gentiles? If so, why did He repeatedly warn Israel to not learn of their ways?

If Hell is real, why did God tell the Jews that burning their children alive in the fire to the false god Molech, (in the valley of Gehenna ) was so detestable to Him? God said that such a thing “never even entered His mind” (Jer. 32:35). How could God say such a thing to Israel , if He has plans to burn alive a good majority of His own creation in a spiritual and eternal Gehenna of His own making?

**FACT: The King James Bible erroneously translates the word “Sheol” as Hell a total of 31 times in the Old Testament, thus setting a foundation for that doctrine in the New Testament as well as the majority of Bible translations to follow the KJV. Even so, most new translations have completely eliminated Hell from the Old Testament, as honest and better scholarship has demanded. The Jewish version of the Old Testament (the Tanakh) has no concept of Hell in it. The importance of this fact cannot be over-emphasized. If a doctrine does not appear as seed form in the books of the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms, it cannot fairly be taught as a major biblical doctrine, if indeed it can be taught as biblical at all!

I see so much ignorance and free-style and wishful personal opinion here that I don’t know how to even respond fully. You think KJV was written before the original gospels and epistles and early church father’s writings?!!! Please learn some basic history.

Also go back and re-read your Old Testament. See the bit right up front in Genesis about Lucifer being cast into Hell? While you are at it look into the word Gehenna - the place were trash and things that have become corrupt and good for nothing good are burned outside the walls of Jerusalem. Can you not see the profound parallels to what is seperated from God’s Kingdom outside the gate as those wailing and gnashing their teeth for the utter foolishness in having rejected God’s call to His Kingdom?

When Jesus died on the cross He defined “death” as separation from God in the most profoundly sad uttering - “My God My God why have You abandoned Me!”. In Genesis’ Eden man was partially seperated from God by banishment from the garden as punishment of partaking of the tree of good and evil. But God also planned for man’s redemption from the beginning of time since he foresaw in His omniscience that Man would fall. Thus God’s second person Jesus (full Divine full human) was always with God (and fully God Himself) as the salvific plan to rescue or redeem a portion of those who had fallen away from the consequence of eternal separation. Thus Jesus on the cross becomes “The Tree of Life”. But one must also pick from the fruit of that tree in order to live (literally eating the body and blood of Jesus present in the Eucharist - the new manna that comes down from heaven as the living word of God).

Hell is very real. All the private revelations from the saints speak of unimaginable envy and resentment for those who listened and made it to Heaven as some at times are given visions of what God had planned for them if they had elected Him over themselves. The fires of hell are intense beyond imagine and spiritually burn with an intensity so great that it really becomes an act of mercy by God to occupy the souls with some relief of the horror of knowing they are forever alone and seperated from God for ETERNITY with NO HOPE of ever getting out.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I have my own ideas on how to respond to this statement by a friend of a friend. But what would you say to someone who speculates that there can be no hell because “God is everywhere so how can a person be totally separated from Him???”

God is everywhere and it is possible that people have no awareness that he is there. The passages in Psalms likely speak of the grave, that a person can not escape his prescence.

But, people can NOT be aware of his prescence.

What scriptures does he use to claim that God is not present in Hell? or not omnipresent?

When I was in NAM, I would scout out a camp of the other side. And, they had no idea I was there. Does that mean that their camp did not exist?

I don’t think scriptures say that God is not omniprsent, not in Hell, only that those in Hell will not be aware of him being there.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

In Matthew 7, 25 are they not simply departing from the physical prescence of the ressurrected Jesus? Jesus spiritual side if you will is still fully God and therefore omnipresent. If Jesus physical body were omnipresent would it not be standing in front of you? Basically, Jesus is still fully man ( limited physically to where his body is ) and fully God thus in his spirit omnipresent – God is Spirit. Thus in his spirit, Jesus would be omnipresent which includes Hell, eternal punishment. But, his body would be limited to its location ( this is all assuming limits of dimensions as we understand them in our sphere of existence, all bets are off when the number of dimensions increase ).

 

[bluemug]

The discussion on this topic has been quite long and I have not seen the final conclusion. It is very interesting, and I am very eager to hear from the expert themselves,eg priest, theologian, etc.
I am quite new to this forum. What’s usually going to happen, after everyone posts different view? I hope the expert would come out soon to disclose the truth. I am confusedly waiting…

 

[MH84]

Is it possible that hell could be death without other punishment?
God is so merciful that He sent His only Son to suffer for us.

Does the Church teach definitively that hell is eternal, and that it will be so terrible? Im really scared of hell, but I so often sin. I feel so scared that hell is an eternal punishment. If hell is as terrible as we have never seen, why have we all sinned and suffer concupiscience? There seems to be so many ways we can go wrong.

Why must sins mean that eternal suffering takes place? No one would ever reject God if they saw how terrible hell was. Even if they sinned they still wouldnt want to directly reject God.

 

[davidv]

Is it possible that hell could be death without other punishment?
God is so merciful that He sent His only Son to suffer for us.

Does the Church teach definitively that hell is eternal, and that it will be so terrible?

Yes. Why? Because the soul is eternal

Im really scared of hell,

As we all should be.

but I so often sin. I feel so scared that hell is an eternal punishment. If hell is as terrible as we have never seen, why have we all sinned and suffer concupiscience?

That is the way things are.

There seems to be so many ways we can go wrong.

Why must sins mean that eternal suffering takes place?

Because the rejection of God (sin) is such a major affront against His goodness.

No one would ever reject God if they saw how terrible hell was. Even if they sinned they still wouldnt want to directly reject God.

How so? It doesn’t keep people driving drunk, abusing drugs and any number of things that have horrible consequences. Whether one realizes it, or not, sin is a rejection (at some level) of God.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Is it possible that hell could be death without other punishment?
God is so merciful that He sent His only Son to suffer for us.

Does the Church teach definitively that hell is eternal, and that it will be so terrible? Im really scared of hell, but I so often sin. I feel so scared that hell is an eternal punishment. If hell is as terrible as we have never seen, why have we all sinned and suffer concupiscience? There seems to be so many ways we can go wrong.

Why must sins mean that eternal suffering takes place? No one would ever reject God if they saw how terrible hell was.

No, death is just the cost of being born into original sin as a consequence of Adam’s fall. Death itself is an awful punishment for sin and in fact can become an act of submission to God on one’s death bed by making a perfect act of contrition asking forgiveness for sins and calls on God’s mercy. We can go straing to heaven by resigning ourselves to the justice of death as a conscious act of worship to God. This can be done if no priest is available for general absolution.

God holds each of us personally accountable for the immortal souls He has given us. We owe it to God to return our souls to Him spotless and in a manner which brings Him glory, honor and pride so He may call us His child. Therefor one should be very AFRAID of the consequences of sin. This is natural and healthy since no one wants to spend eternity seperated from the profound glory and love of God. But this fear should be turned into a healthy tension to change one’s life and seek God’s protective grace daily. This is why the Our Father has the words “give us this day our daily bread”. We must put God first - really first. We must go to confession frequently, ideally we should even go to mas daily and receive communion (hard for most), says prayers daily (since he is part of our family and wants to talk to us daily), pray for enemies and even those who have died and may be in need of our prayers in purgatory.

And to those who think that one can freely sin and take advantage of God’s mercy by asking for forgiveness without any intent to change are overcome by that error and by that concupiscence. Each time we sin we increase the memory of that sin and it becomes more and more like an addiction. Even if forgiven unless we earnestly pray we will desire to relive that sin again and repeat it. Thus the more kinds of sin we do and the more times we do a particular sin the more massive the appetite for those sins become.

At some point sin can corrupt so badly that one is almost incapable of seeking God’s mercy and forgiveness. This is the danger of sin since that inability to ask for forgiveness leads us straight to hell by being too proud to trust in God or ask Him for His grace. Sin thus makes us more like the devil in rejecting God. But God’s grace can fully wipe out all appetite for sin if we really repent and pray about it. Some times we need to fast and pray if having been a sinner a long time. But other’s can pray for us too. So God does have many ways of even overcoming these severe conditions of sin. This is why it is so important to have the benefit of His Church community since the mass offers up sacrifice and prayer to God for the special grace that benefits all the members - even the least devout and prone to sin. Sometimes God even uses our familiarity with sin to force us to come crawling to him when we see that we are not in control of our own bodies or passions for example. He wants us wholly dependant on Him since only He knows how to heal us fully. God will find those who want Him. We can trust in Him to do His job of saving us if we ask Him and seek Him daily.

He also gives us special devotions that have guarantees for final repentance and will intervene in our lives to save us at the final hour if one falls away. But He will never force us to accept Him. We must have that spark of desire in us to do good and accept Him and His mercy and grace.

So Yes - hell is very real and there are many many ways of falling into temptation and sin. The key is that we have to use the abundant graces that God gives us to overcome the temptations or avoid the snares. God wants no one to fall away or be lost. But he wants each of us to ask Him for his protection and grace. Pray daily and go to mass and confession and receive holy communion.
I am also a huge believer in the devotions to the sacred heart of Jesus and the immaculate heart of Mary. These and many others have promises of final contrition, mercy and salvation.

If it is just to have eternal joy and communion with God for loving Him then it is also just to have eternal separation from God for those who hate him. Only a fool rejects God or would trade a few years of pleasure on this planet for an eternity of pleasure. Sacrifice a little now for an eternity of joy more profound than we can imagine or pay hell forever later.

James