God is good

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Pardon me. I do not mean to be rude by interrupting the preceding conversations.

It occurs to me that the difference between the status of God the Creator and the status of human the creature has been obliterated. :sad_yes:
When the difference between the status of God the Creator and the status of human the creature is obliterated, as occasionally seen on this thread, then the goodness of Jesus Christ, which is His Divinity, can be overlooked. In terms of the Christian position, John 3:16 is the reality example of the goodness of God.
 
When the difference between the status of God the Creator and the status of human the creature is obliterated, as occasionally seen on this thread, then the goodness of Jesus Christ, which is His Divinity, can be overlooked. In terms of the Christian position, John 3:16 is the reality example of the goodness of God.
Ah, the infamous John SQRT(10) ;). There are two problems with it. The small problem is that it is sheer mythology. The real problem is that it is the greatest insult that can be hurled at God. To say that God was unable / unwilling (?) to pardon the human sins without going through the self-sacrifice is the top of irrationality. God could have just declared “amnesty” any time he wanted do. There is one more auxiliary problem. The “forgiveness” is not unconditional. It does not a give a “free pardon”.

Us, lowly humans can forgive without any sacrifice, freely forgiving the wrongdoers. We do not demand to be “worshipped” either. So, I take the human type of “goodness” any time. It comes free, unconditionally.
 
Ah, the infamous John SQRT(10) ;). There are two problems with it. The small problem is that it is sheer mythology.
So what?

This is the Philosophy Forum and I am free to present a philosophy (mythology if you wish) that is reasonable when one understands (not necessarily accepts) the difference between a transcendent Pure Spirit without material/physical restrictions and a human, who when he wants to* fly* from here to there uses some kind of a large carrier instead of flapping her or his arms. 🙂

Do you have any thoughts about a transcendent Pure Spirit without material/physical restrictions? Hypothetical is fine with me. After all, there are some philosophies which could be considered hypothetical.
 
Without substantiating your opinion. In an amoral universe any form of goodness is a mere fantasy…
Looks like it is my mistake to assume some minimum understanding. Sometimes even that minimum results in overestimating the mental capacity of some people. But that is not my fault, nor it is my concern.
 
However, I argue upon the platform of reality. We do have all the necessary information that God does not interfere, and does not help (sporadic and not substantiated miracles notwithstanding). I make my judgment call based upon that information.
You are not arguing from a platform of reality. You are arguing from your notion of reality, a far different thing. Your moral judgement, and, hence, your “platform,” is based upon very limited information, which is clear from the fact that you do not know the far reaching consequences of any act that you undertake.

Your special pleading is to reify your “special” notion of reality - because it is yours - to the state of being the “platform” of reality. Clearly, anyone who insists reality must be more than that would be correct to make that assertion and, on that basis, correctly propose that God’s apparent inaction may, rightly, be the result of more consequential knowledge that is not available to you. That conclusion would rightly follow from the fact that even you admit ignorance of the far reaching effects of your acts. You cannot know how what you do or don’t do now will affect those living 100 or 1000 years from today.

The fact that you are only capable of a very partial moral perspective is proof and admission that a far greater one must exist and would be the prerogative of an omniscient being. If an omniscient being exists, then his action would necessarily not correspond completely or even remotely with yours. Whether or not God exists is neither here nor there regarding a counter to your argument because, clearly, omniscience would, in principle, not be identical to your moral musings and, so, would not be susceptible to your critique of “inaction” or indolence.

The point being that you cannot use your limited moral musings to “prove” the non-existence of an omniscient God because your moral determinations would, in principle, not be anything like those of an omniscient being, so your notions cannot be used as evidence against such a being.

You cannot draw the conclusion that God “should” do this or that because you don’t have the wherewithal (omniscience) to do so. The truth of the matter is that it is you who are trying to make unfounded statements by claiming categorically that your view of moral actions is to be taken to apply without qualification to all moral beings, even those with omniscience. That, my friend, is special pleading - that your view is the “special” one that ought to stand as the standard for action when you have not established that it is, except, of course, to claim that it is the “platform of reality,” which means nothing except that YOU endorse it as such.

As to your claim that God is indolent or absent, you must not forget that you admitted nothing occurs without God providing the wherewithal to enable it. This means God is ever present in every occurrence and, therefore, most certainly, cannot be called negligent or aloof.

You need to make up your mind. You cannot claim God is responsible for everything that occurs and at the same time that he is aloof. Surely, what you mean is that you do not agree with when or where he intervenes, that he should do so more often, that he should not allow natural consequences to follow moral choices but, rather, that he SHOULD “rescue” anyone in the consequential path of the wrong choices of others and traumatic natural events.
 
I will collect some examples.
Excellent.

NB: the request was for examples of Catholics using the CCC to proclaim contrary positions. That is, one Catholic saying “The CCC says A” and another Catholic stating, “No, the CCC says not-A”.
 
You are not arguing from a platform of reality. You are arguing from your notion of reality, a far different thing.
My argument is based upon what we KNOW about reality. Arguments can only be based upon the current level of knowledge. Besides the church teaches that God performs miracles only once in a blue moon, and as such God does not interfere in the human state of affairs. That is reality.
If an omniscient being exists, then his action would necessarily not correspond completely or even remotely with yours.
There is no coherent definition of “omniscience”, so you cannot base any argument upon “IF an omniscient being exists…”. That is going out into the undefined and unsubstantiated “never-never land”.
 
My argument is based upon what we KNOW about reality. Arguments can only be based upon the current level of knowledge. Besides the church teaches that God performs miracles only once in a blue moon, and as such God does not interfere in the human state of affairs. That is reality.

There is no coherent definition of “omniscience”, so you cannot base any argument upon “IF an omniscient being exists…”. That is going out into the undefined and unsubstantiated “never-never land”.
Leave it to Catholics…when talking about reality highlighted in bold… they see two realities, one material and one spiritual. Now that is really a real reality! 😃
 
Leave it to Catholics…when talking about reality highlighted in bold… they see two realities, one material and one spiritual. Now that is really a real reality! 😃
And the ancient Indians all believed in the Great Manitou, The Greeks believed in Zeus, the Romans believed in Jupiter… etc. What else is new? 🙂

Even if one accepts the idea of “spiritual” reality (whatever that might be) it is still a fact that God does not intervene. God does not give “free” pardon. God does not act in the best interest of those whom he supposedly “loves”. This is the stark reality. Of course you would be welcome to prove me wrong by presenting actual facts which show God’s constant interference in our favor, helps the hungry, heals the sick, gives shelter to the homeless. And on top of that you would be welcome to prove that God takes all “unfortunate” ones into heaven to experience eternal bliss… But even if you could do all that, it is still a fact that he does not do that NOW. Postponing the “giving” is not a sign of love. Remember: “bis dat qui cito dat”.
 
Is it correct to assign some attributes to God and then try to deduce something about the state of nature that we are embedded in?
 
Is it correct to assign some attributes to God and then try to deduce something about the state of nature that we are embedded in?
The question: “Is it correct to assign some attributes to God and then try to deduce something about the state of nature that we are embedded in?”

Instead of a straight answer of yes or no, the answer becomes maybe, maybe not.

I have been reminded about the Great Manitou, Zeus and company, Jupiter and company, and we should not forget the Hindu deities and the God of Adam and Eve, etc., etc. All this teaches us that humankind has an innate ability to recognize the difference between a spiritual, supernatural being and our natural selves. As humans, many of us are curious about our origin and the ultimate reason for living plus how we can interact with a supernatural being.

Today’s Catholics need not reinvent the wheel. We already have God’s revelation of Who He is as Creator and what is His purpose for us as created creatures. Because of God’s status and His call to all humans to share in His life both now and forever, we understand that God is ultimate good that transcends our material/physical environment. We need to keep reminding ourselves that God transcends both our limited anatomy and our limited world.

Thus, in one way, it will be beneficial to recognize the attributes of God as a spiritual being and check how they are reflected in our own world. In another way, maybe assigning some natural human attributes to a super-natural God will lead to a demotion of God. For example. In my humble opinion, pantheism is being approached on this thread. Maybe not the “pantheism” of old, but a modern form of the doctrine that equates God with the forces and laws of the universe including the natural actions of our decomposing anatomy. In any case, I sense that the concept of a personal God is under attack.
 
My argument is based upon what we KNOW about reality.
No, actually, your argument is based upon what you THINK you know about reality, a far different thing.
Arguments can only be based upon the current level of knowledge. Besides the church teaches that God performs miracles only once in a blue moon, and as such God does not interfere in the human state of affairs. That is reality.
Well, perhaps it is true that God only performs public miracles once in a while, but that does not mean he does not intervene in non-miraculous or privately miraculous ways (ways not open to public demonstration) billions of times every day. Most of what occurs to us each day is “non-verifiable” in the sense that the events uniquely obtain and cannot be replicated since all the antecedent conditions will never be aligned in quite the same way ever again. In that sense, you would have no way of knowing or demonstrating whether a particular occurrence was miraculous or not. I can think of many such events that occurred in my life on a personal level that defy verification and explanation by natural causal explanation, but yet happened.

You might insist there is some natural explanation, but it would only be that - an insistence.
There is no coherent definition of “omniscience”, so you cannot base any argument upon “IF an omniscient being exists…”. That is going out into the undefined and unsubstantiated “never-never land”.
A coherent definition of omniscience is quite simply the knowledge of the truth of everything that exists or could exist. I am not sure how that is incoherent. Science strives for “a theory of everything” which means even science ascribes to a tacit belief that omniscience is, at least, a coherent, if not humanly practical or achievable, possibility.
 
No, actually, your argument is based upon what you THINK you know about reality, a far different thing.
Well, I don’t know about you, but I am aware the difference between facts (what I KNOW) and hypotheses.
Well, perhaps it is true that God only performs public miracles once in a while, but that does not mean he does not intervene in non-miraculous or privately miraculous ways (ways not open to public demonstration) billions of times every day.
Ah, the good, old fallacy called “argumentum ad ignoratiam”. If only I had a dollar for every instance this idiocy was offered, I would be a pretty wealthy person. There are many ridiculous arguments around here, but the “argument from ignorance” is probably the dumbest one of all. A “miracle” is defined as some event that is contrary to the known laws of nature.
A coherent definition of omniscience is quite simply the knowledge of the truth of everything that exists or could exist. I am not sure how that is incoherent.
Two problems. First there is no way to decide what is “knowable”, therefore this definition is vacuous - at best. If there is no way to decide what is “knowable” and what is not, your definition is useless.

Second, the Molinist “middle knowledge” (to know something that does not exist, but under some specific circumstances it could exist) leads to a logical nonsense. It asserts that something that does not exist, never existed, and will never exist, but under some specific circumstances it “might have existed” and it can be KNOWN is nonsense. To posit an example: “the omniscient God knows the precise content of a book which was never written, since its author was never born, since his possible parents never met…”. What would the word “know” mean in this respect? Of course you can “invent” a brand new meaning of “knowledge”, which bears no resemblance to the actual meaning of this word (to have information about something - or justified true belief). This kind of redefinition is also rather prevalent around here.
 
Well, I don’t know about you, but I am aware the difference between facts (what I KNOW) and hypotheses.
So the logical implication is that defining facts as "what I KNOW” means that by definition “facts” can only be what you know. So nothing can be true that you do not know?

The other problem is that you might be mistaken and, therefore, what you think you know is not correctly described as a “fact.”

How would you “know” that you are mistaken when you think you are in possession of the “facts?”
Ah, the good, old fallacy called “argumentum ad ignoratiam”. If only I had a dollar for every instance this idiocy was offered, I would be a pretty wealthy person. There are many ridiculous arguments around here, but the “argument from ignorance” is probably the dumbest one of all. A “miracle” is defined as some event that is contrary to the known laws of nature.
Except that my argument was not an argument from ignorance, it was an argument from the absolute certainty that any human observer does not possess the wherewithal to conclude, as you do, that all events necessarily fall under or are controlled by the known laws of physics.

A cat comes to sit on my lap. To which “laws of nature” can we ascribe the cat’s motives and know with certainty the reason why the cat did so? You can make an educated guess, but that is all it would be. The cat’s action is not derivable from any “law” of nature. WHY any event occurs is not susceptible to laws of nature, because laws of nature do not ultimately explain and cannot ultimately explain reasons for an event. Laws of nature only address the “means by which” the event occurred.

The laws of gravity and motion, for example, merely describe the attraction that exists between material entities but these laws do not explain WHY attraction exists, only THAT it does. There is no tenet in the law of gravity to explain WHY the law of gravity exists or holds to be the case instead of some other possibility.

If you wish to argue “ad ignorantiam” that to know “why” attraction exists within material particles is not meaningful, you would know that to be true, how?
Two problems. First there is no way to decide what is “knowable”, therefore this definition is vacuous - at best. If there is no way to decide what is “knowable” and what is not, your definition is useless.
Sure there is a way to decide what is knowable - is it an accurate depiction of what was, is or will be. That is what makes the definition quite meaningful. That is precisely the definition that grounds science, as well. The problem is that you want to set the bar for knowable at verifiable by repetition, when, clearly, much of what occurs around us in reality is not repeatable because circumstances will never align in the same way ever again for much of what occurs, in particular where human behaviour and action is concerned.

By claiming that whatever is not repeatable, is, therefore, not verifiable and therefore not true is an instance of you committing the argumentum ad ignorantiam precisely because you are claiming a proposition is true because it has not been proven false (or, in this case, false because it has not been proven true,) i.e., non-repeatable events, because they are unverifiable by the known laws of physics, could not occur because they are unrepeatable and therefore unverifiable.

You have ruled out the possibility of an entire class of events (non-repeatable events) as impossible because your criteria for accepting any event as possible (verifiable) is that they be repeatable, not just in principle, but to the stringent satisfaction of the experimental methods that you allow.

In essence, you are arguing something cannot be true because you do not know it to be true or it must be false because it has not been proven true (by your methods.) Argumentum ad ignorantiam? I’ll refrain from making observations about the “ridiculous arguments around here.”
Second, the Molinist “middle knowledge” (to know something that does not exist, but under some specific circumstances it could exist) leads to a logical nonsense. It asserts that something that does not exist, never existed, and will never exist, but under some specific circumstances it “might have existed” and it can be KNOWN is nonsense. To posit an example: “the omniscient God knows the precise content of a book which was never written, since its author was never born, since his possible parents never met…”. What would the word “know” mean in this respect? Of course you can “invent” a brand new meaning of “knowledge”, which bears no resemblance to the actual meaning of this word (to have information about something - or justified true belief). This kind of redefinition is also rather prevalent around here.
Your analysis here is wanting. It makes perfect sense to speak of legitimate possibilities and to “know” them. To know that this tree could be cut down and turned into lumber or paper is knowledge of the potential for what could plausibly occur. According to you, all such foresight would be logical nonsense.

On the contrary, I would argue that the capacity to foresee or anticipate with far reaching insight is a valid and crucial form of knowledge. In fact, creativity, presumes the ability to construct novel possibilities from what does not now nor never did exist, but COULD, even though it never will unless and until the creative agent brings it into existence and makes it a reality.

This is quite sensible and I celebrate that “around here” it happens with “prevalent” frequency.
 
Interesting, I would have to *dis-agree. I do not believe God is good. Why is this?

Meister Eckhart asserted that God, in His Essence, transcends all the qualities and attributes which are normally attributed to him in ordinary theology, such as goodness, wisdom or power. These attributes do not give a valid description of Him and in fact obscure the correct understanding of Him. Eckhart stated that such attributes are “admixtures” which “dim” the understanding of God’s Essence. Eckhart still affirmed that God is the ultimate source of these attributes, but His Essence remains beyond the descriptions and meaning denoted by them.

“God transcends wisdom and goodness; for God is not either wisdom or good, but from God come wisdom and goodness.”

“It is the Godhead’s nature to be without nature. To think of goodness or wisdom or power dissembles the Essence and dims It in thought. The mere thought obscures Essence.”

“If I say, God is good, it is not true; nay more; I am good, God is not good. I may even say, I am better than God; for whatever is good, may become better, and whatever may become better, may become best. Now God is not good, for He cannot become better. And if He cannot become better, He cannot become best, for these three things, good, better, and best, are far from God, since He is above all. If I also say, God is wise, it is not true; I am wiser than He.”
 
“God transcends wisdom and goodness; for God is not either wisdom or good, but from God come wisdom and goodness.”
May I gently point out that the concept “God transcends wisdom and goodness; for God is not either wisdom or good, but from God come wisdom and goodness.” is a tad short in its initial meaning. The better concept is that God transcends human wisdom and good.
 
May I gently point out that the concept “God transcends wisdom and goodness” is a tad short in its meaning. The better concept is that God transcends human wisdom and good.
But even to say God possesses divine wisdom and divine goodness are wrong because we’re still imputing an attribute to Him, and is therefore our conception of Him. But He is even beyond our conceptions of wisdom and goodness, so that description is false.

One way that some philosophers got around this was by speaking of God using the method of “dual negation” whereby they negated both positive and negative attributes from God: He is not good and He is not not-good; He is not wise and he is not not-wise; He is not subject to attributes and not not subject to attributes. Simply put, God is above anything we can possibly say about Him.
 
Is it correct to assign some attributes to God and then try to deduce something about the state of nature that we are embedded in?
Is it correct to assign some attributes to nature and then try deduce something about the state of nature that we’re embedded in?

Here’s one, “the universe makes sense.” something wrong with this assertion as a starting point of inquiry?

Putting the above aside, your implict argument, I take it, is that believers in God assign attributes to him in an arbitrary manner, can you substantiate that? any thinkers? any quotes?
 
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