God is Good

[quandy57]

Is the Will of God dependent on what is good? or is good dependent on the Will of God? I know God is all good and all loving, but does that mean these morals are somehow outside of God? Or does God choose what is good?

 

[BornInMarch]

There is actually some debate on this even within the church.

Those who favor the Will of God argue that God physically can not sin because everything he does is automatically good by default, even if such acts seem heinous and reprehensible from a human standpoint.

Those who favor the Character/Nature of God argue that God has the physical ability to sin but always chooses not to because he knows the good perfectly, which means that even his harshest acts are done for the greater good.

Personally I take the second stance, the stance that instead of doing whatever wants God chooses not to sin. One example of this could be when he made his covenant with Abraham and walked through the animal halves; walking through the animal halves back then was a way of saying “if I break my end of this agreement then may I be killed and cut in half like these animals”, which seems to suggest that it would be an evil act for God to renounce his covenant with Abraham.

 

[quandy57]

Those who favor the Character/Nature of God argue that God has the physical ability to sin but always chooses not to because he knows the good perfectly, which means that even his harshest acts are done for the greater good.

Well to sin is to willingly go against the Will of God, so I would say God cannot sin. But Is something good because God does it, or does God do something because it is good.

I do agree with you that God chooses to do good, because we know God has free will and Jesus chose to follow His divine will over His human will during the agony in the garden. I would think that God does something because it is good, but at the same time, would that mean is goodness somehow outside of God and His control?

 

[JurisPrudens]

Is the Will of God dependent on what is good? or is good dependent on the Will of God? I know God is all good and all loving, but does that mean these morals are somehow outside of God? Or does God choose what is good?

The morals are not “outside” God. God ingrained the ideas of good and evil into our nature. We call God “all Good” because He is the source of all good that we can ever imagine.

The Will of God is not dependent on what is good; it is the other way round. God is the most perfect, consistent and orderly being imaginable. If God were to go back on His word or otherwise violate His own teaching, He would have been indistinguishable from chaos; and chaos is non-existence. Therefore, God is only logical and existing as a perfectly consistent and moral being.

Of course, as God’s power is absolute, He is not bound by the laws that He established, even by the rules of logic. However, He created us as rational and logical beings, and thus He communicates with us by means of logic. And thus, we see God in the way I just described.

 

[seagal]

This is called the Euthyphro Dilemma, named for a character in one of Plato’s dialogues.

Is something good because God wills it, or does God will something because it is good?
If (a) then the good is independent and outside of God.
If (b) then good and evil are arbitrary.

This is a false dilemma. There is a third alternative, that is God wills something because he is good, God’s own nature is the standard of what is good.

Christian theologian and apologist William Lane Craig explains it here
youtube.com/watch?v=wBvi_auKkaI

He goes into more detail here
youtube.com/watch?v=wBvi_auKkaI

 

[Peter_J]

This is called the Euthyphro Dilemma, named for a character in one of Plato’s dialogues.

Is something good because God wills it, or does God will something because it is good?
If (a) then the good is independent and outside of God.
If (b) then good and evil are arbitrary.

I’m trying to understand this statement … I feel like a and b should be switched.

 

[seagal]

I’m trying to understand this statement … I feel like a and b should be switched.

Yes you’re right, sorry about the confusion. I was editing and didn’t notice when I switched something.

It should read:
Is something good because God wills it, or does God will something because it is good?
If (a) then good and evil are arbitrary.
If (b) then the good is independent and outside of God.

But, as Dr. Craig explains, neither option is correct. I find it hard to get my head around the whole thing but I found the video explains it in depth.

(I also didn’t notice that the 2 videos were actually the same one )

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

This is a false dilemma. There is a third alternative, that is God wills something because he is good, God’s own nature is the standard of what is good.

That is not a third alternative. It is simply an arbitrary definition of God’s alleged nature and assumed goodness.

The Euthyphro Dilemma is a thorn in the side of Christianity, along with the Problem of Evil. No theologian was ever able to resolve these problems.

 

[fhansen]

Love is the standard for goodness, and God *is *love. So His will and nature are unified anyway. And we certainly can at least identify goodness by contrasting it’s opposite, when we witness an obviously unloving act.

 

[seagal]

That is not a third alternative. It is simply an arbitrary definition of God’s alleged nature and assumed goodness.

The Euthyphro Dilemma is a thorn in the side of Christianity, along with the Problem of Evil. No theologian was ever able to resolve these problems.

By definition God is a being worthy of worship, and only a being which is perfectly good would be worthy of worship. Therefore the definition stands.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

Love is the standard for goodness, and God *is *love. So His will and nature are unified anyway. And we certainly can at least identify goodness by contrasting it’s opposite, when we witness an obviously unloving act.

As for illustrating God’s “love” I suggest you take a peek at these pictures: google.com/search?q=hunger+in+africa&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwi0mqqqwtzSAhWEQSYKHfMeDikQ_AUIBigB&biw=1536&bih=783#spf=1 They show just how “loving” God is…

By definition God is a being worthy of worship, and only a being which is perfectly good would be worthy of worship. Therefore the definition stands.

You mean: YOUR definition. Of course the easiest way to “win” an argument is to create your own “definition”, and conclude that any objection incorrect. As the Church Lady (Dana Carvey) said: “How conveeenient”. youtube.com/watch?v=Jm3zV1pCTQ8

 

[quandy57]

As for illustrating God’s “love” I suggest you take a peek at these pictures: google.com/search?q=hunger+in+africa&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwi0mqqqwtzSAhWEQSYKHfMeDikQ_AUIBigB&biw=1536&bih=783#spf=1 They show just how “loving” God is…

You mean: YOUR definition. Of course the easiest way to “win” an argument is to create your own “definition”, and conclude that any objection incorrect. As the Church Lady (Dana Carvey) said: “How conveeenient”. youtube.com/watch?v=Jm3zV1pCTQ8

… GOD is defined in many ways, one of which is LOVE. That’s not one’s own definition, it is the definition HE, HIMSELF, gave us lol

BTW definition of worship: (GOD is worship-able because of who HE is, HE is the only deity in monotheistic faith, therefore he is the only one to be worshiped…that’s not one’s own definition…)

wor·ship
ˈwərSHəp/Submit
noun
1.
the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.
“the worship of God”
synonyms: reverence, veneration, adoration, glorification, glory, exaltation; More
verb
1.
show reverence and adoration for (a deity); honor with religious rites.

 

[fhansen]

As for illustrating God’s “love” I suggest you take a peek at these pictures: google.com/search?q=hunger+in+africa&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwi0mqqqwtzSAhWEQSYKHfMeDikQ_AUIBigB&biw=1536&bih=783#spf=1 They show just how “loving” God is…

They show how loving we are. I’m sure you throw every spare dime their way tho, rather then spend it on anything more than necessities.

Either way we can follow the path of love, supported by the sense that love in some way is “bigger” than us-and foundational to this universe-giving value and worth and meaning to human life and acts, or we can sort of drift, playing at “fulfilling” ourselves with pleasure or accomplishments or wealth or stuff, etc.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

… GOD is defined in many ways, one of which is LOVE. That’s not one’s own definition, it is the definition HE, HIMSELF, gave us lol

According to your unsubstantiated belief. This “love” which allows useless suffering is indistinguishable from either “hate” or “indifference”. And if you don’t know what useless suffering is, just observe the suffering of toddlers during teething. A perfect example of unnecessary suffering.

They show how loving we are. I’m sure you throw every spare dime their way tho, rather then spend it on anything more than necessities.

Nonsense. We are unable to “conjure up” rain, no matter how we try. We simply have no wherewithal to make a substantial difference. We do make a miniscule difference through our charities (both religious and secular), but that is simply insufficient. Compared to our power and ability we are extremely helpful to those children in Africa. Compared to God’s infinite power and ability he does NOTHING at all.

Your attempt to whitewash God’s non-intervention is akin to the defense of an ultra-rich person, who could make real difference by sacrificing a small amount his fortune, but does nothing. When poor people ask him why does he not help, he simply answers: “what did you do to help”? There is a good, old euphemism to describe this “defense”, it has everything to do with bovine waste products.

 

[quandy57]

According to your unsubstantiated belief. This “love” which allows useless suffering is indistinguishable from either “hate” or “indifference”. And if you don’t know what useless suffering is, just observe the suffering of toddlers during teething. A perfect example of unnecessary suffering.

Definitely not unsubstantiated.

In His great love he decided to allow us humans (and angels) the ability to have free will. He does not force us to accept His love, but He will always love us. (The love is always there, just not always accepted.) This free will had brought “evil” and “hate” into the world. Take Adam and Eve for example, there was no evil in the Garden of Eden, but He still gave them a choice to go against His wants. They took it. He allows it so He can bring greater good, Jesus came in order to bring this greater good, and He will again. We can also use the suffering to get stronger. Take weight lifting for example, we become sore, tired and weak when we lift, but afterwards our muscles begin to build, especially when we let the right stuff enter our body afterwards (water and protein for example), just like when we let the Holy Spirit work through us through this suffering.

Besides this love is even shown in our suffering. When we suffer, God is saddened even though He knows greater good can come from it. Take the Lazarus story for example. He was dead, and Jesus wept for all His and others sufferings, even though He knew what He was about to do.

God’s nature is Love; He has never been unloving.

 

[fhansen]

According to your unsubstantiated belief. This “love” which allows useless suffering is indistinguishable from either “hate” or “indifference”. And if you don’t know what useless suffering is, just observe the suffering of toddlers during teething. A perfect example of unnecessary suffering.

Nonsense. We are unable to “conjure up” rain, no matter how we try. We simply have no wherewithal to make a substantial difference. We do make a miniscule difference through our charities (both religious and secular), but that is simply insufficient. Compared to our power and ability we are extremely helpful to those children in Africa. Compared to God’s infinite power and ability he does NOTHING at all.

Your attempt to whitewash God’s non-intervention is akin to the defense of an ultra-rich person, who could make real difference by sacrificing a small amount his fortune, but does nothing. When poor people ask him why does he not help, he simply answers: “what did you do to help”? There is a good, old euphemism to describe this “defense”, it has everything to do with bovine waste products.

Yes, the Master’s gone away-and we’re left here all alone for all practical purposes, free to do as we please, left to our own devices, often wondering why He doesn’t do more, or if this degree of freedom really is-or will somehow be- beneficial in the end.

But the truth is that whether or not we believe the Master even exists, *we’re * the ultra-rich; we do have the capacity to feed the poor in this world, many times over. That’s the tragedy of it all; human greed and selfishness and failure to love in general are the obstacles to our being able to resolve such catastrophes.

 

[quandy57]

Yes, the Master’s gone away-and we’re left here all alone for all practical purposes, free to do as we please, left to our own devices, often wondering why He doesn’t do more, or if this degree of freedom really is-or will somehow be- beneficial in the end.

Um. We are not alone, He is with us in a different way, I would say a more Profound way. He has given us so many gifts and we so often get so distracted we forget to listen to Him and what he asks of us.

Jesus is fully present in the Eucharist. He is present in the Church, he is present when 2 or more are gathered in our name.

The Holy Spirit is always with us, He is in everyone who is baptized, even more so in those who are confirmed, and so many more ways.

The Father has His relationship with us as well.

To know if their existence often you must be Prayerful, be Open to His existence, make yourself available to Him (Give time to Him), and many more things. He is so wanting to be with us and to work through us. We just need to ask like all the saints. He wants relationships with us, He makes opportunities for us to do so, but if we don’t want it - He wont make us have that relationship.

 

[fhansen]

Um. We are not alone, He is with us in a different way, I would say a more Profound way. He has given us so many gifts and we so often get so distracted we forget to listen to Him and what he asks of us.

Jesus is fully present in the Eucharist. He is present in the Church, he is present when 2 or more are gathered in our name.

The Holy Spirit is always with us, He is in everyone who is baptized, even more so in those who are confirmed, and so many more ways.

The Father has His relationship with us as well.

To know if their existence often you must be Prayerful, be Open to His existence, make yourself available to Him (Give time to Him), and many more things. He is so wanting to be with us and to work through us. We just need to ask like all the saints. He wants relationships with us, He makes opportunities for us to do so, but if we don’t want it - He wont make us have that relationship.

I certainly don’t disagree with any of this. But the point is that, in this world, the sun shines and the rain falls on the good and bad alike. There seems to be no partiality when it comes to the evils we may face. How we react is another story, with or without faith and grace. Either way the world is radically free, man is left in the hands of his own counsel as the catechism teaches, and life and the pursuit of righteousness is a struggle. Someone once said that integrity is to do the right thing even when no one is looking. Without the Master directly in view, we end up seeing how much we really believe, how we’ll behave when He’s “gone”.

 

[quandy57]

Without the Master directly in view, we end up seeing how much we really believe, how we’ll behave when He’s “gone”.

Yes a lot of faith is involved, but It doesn’t change that He is always with us…our lives are filled with noise and we forget that God’s favorite language is silence, we have to understand that He is there, and He wants to work with us, but He wants to be invited because He has given us free will.

Now in regards to evil, that comes from sin, either our own, our ancestors, or others around us. Evil entered the world when Adam and Eve ate the apple and they were removed from the garden. They were removed because they broke the relationship. Evil exists because we chose that fate. Now before someone asks about why we have to suffer for the choices of 2, this is because we are community of life, what we do always effects others, when Jesus comes again, all will be restored to those who want to be in Heaven

I just don’t like the phrasing of “He’s gone” in any sense, mainly because it leads to so much misunderstanding of what one means.

 

[fhansen]

Yes a lot of faith is involved, but It doesn’t change that He is always with us…our lives are filled with noise and we forget that God’s favorite language is silence, we have to understand that He is there, and He wants to work with us, but He wants to be invited because He has given us free will.

Now in regards to evil, that comes from sin, either our own, our ancestors, or others around us. Evil entered the world when Adam and Eve ate the apple and they were removed from the garden. They were removed because they broke the relationship. Evil exists because we chose that fate. Now before someone asks about why we have to suffer for the choices of 2, this is because we are community of life, what we do always effects others, when Jesus comes again, all will be restored to those who want to be in Heaven

I just don’t like the phrasing of “He’s gone” in any sense, mainly because it leads to so much misunderstanding of what one means.

Well, “He’s gone” is directly reflective of the fact that we’re in an exile here:

769 “The Church . . . will receive its perfection only in the glory of heaven,” at the time of Christ’s glorious return. Until that day, “the Church progresses on her pilgrimage amidst this world’s persecutions and God’s consolations.” Here below she knows that she is in exile far from the Lord, and longs for the full coming of the Kingdom, when she will “be united in glory with her king.” The Church, and through her the world, will not be perfected in glory without great trials. Only then will "all the just from the time of Adam, ‘from Abel, the just one, to the last of the elect,’ . . . be gathered together in the universal Church in the Father’s presence."