God is Good

[quandy57]

I don’t really have a problem with that. In that case we simply treat “God exists” and “God is good” as two separate claims.

Well sure they are two separate claims. But in many cases if we argue that God exists we are arguing that the God we are referring to is the omniscient, omnipotent, omni-benevolent God. And if we say God is good, it rest on the claim He exists.

But not everyone will agree. When someone quotes some text from the Bible, or some other alleged “authority” I will disregard those quotations as irrelevant. If the quotes are contradicted by reality then I will always accept the reality.

We would have to agree on which God or god we are talking about before we can argue if He exists. In this case we are arguing the God that we Catholics believe in, which in that case you cannot just disregard the Bible, because that describes our definition of Him. And who said they contradict reality? The existence of God can and does coexist with reality, it is reality.

If only I had a dollar for every time I see this nonsense, I would be quite rich. What I would prefer is to be created directly into heaven.

We (humanity) was first put into the Garden of Eden, it was perfect, until Adam and Eve decided to eat from the tree thus the entrance of evil into humanity. We are stained by original sin because of our ancestry. Just as you can do good for future generations, you can also do bad, and in this case it was bad.

If you can only say that you have no idea, but you trust God that there must be, then you are part of the crowd of irrational people, who exhibit “blind faith”. And I think you would not be grateful for the “free will” of a psychopath who kidnapped, tortured and murdered your child.

God isn’t the one doing the evil though; He is allowing us to have freewill!!! A good ending does not justify the means to get there, but God is not committing evil, he is simply letting us make choices. When it comes to the Holocaust, it was completely evil. Was there much good? Well that’s hard to say. But the fact remains, if God were to prevent it, that would mean we lose our FREE WILL. I would not be grateful for the “free will” of a psychopath who did those terrors, but would I choose to end all free will so that doesn’t happen, or would I choose to let all have free will knowing such bad will happen. I think I would prefer all to have free will.

Anyways…There is nothing I can persuade you with, there are no resources or references I could use because you said yourself you discredit all that disagrees with you. But we do have answers to these nonsensical questions you have, whether or not you accept them.

You cannot disprove that God is Good. You can merely prove Humanity is not perfect.

 

[Richca]

There is actually some debate on this even within the church.

Those who favor the Will of God argue that God physically can not sin because everything he does is automatically good by default, even if such acts seem heinous and reprehensible from a human standpoint.

Those who favor the Character/Nature of God argue that God has the physical ability to sin but always chooses not to because he knows the good perfectly, which means that even his harshest acts are done for the greater good.

Personally I take the second stance, the stance that instead of doing whatever wants God chooses not to sin. One example of this could be when he made his covenant with Abraham and walked through the animal halves; walking through the animal halves back then was a way of saying “if I break my end of this agreement then may I be killed and cut in half like these animals”, which seems to suggest that it would be an evil act for God to renounce his covenant with Abraham.

God cannot sin or will to sin whatever, this would be contrary to his very nature. Sinning is an evil and evil is defined as the lack of being and goodness in something that ought to be there. Now the object of the will is the good and the proper object of the divine will is the divine goodness or God himself who is infinitely desirable. There is no lack of being and goodness in the divine being and the divine goodness for God is being and goodness itself. God possesses the fullness of being and goodness in an infinite degree; he is limitless being and goodness itself. There is not the slightest trace of evil in God as evil implies the lack of being and goodness. God necessarily wills infinite goodness itself which is himself. For God to sin or to be able to sin is really the same to say that God is not God or that he himself is not infinite being and infinite goodness itself.

 

[quandy57]

God cannot sin or will to sin whatever, this would be contrary to his very nature. Sinning is an evil and evil is defined as the lack of being and goodness in something that ought to be there. Now the object of the will is the good and the proper object of the divine will is the divine goodness or God himself who is infinitely desirable. There is no lack of being and goodness in the divine being and the divine goodness for God is being and goodness itself. God possesses the fullness of being and goodness in an infinite degree; he is limitless being and goodness itself. There is not the slightest trace of evil in God as evil implies the lack of being and goodness. God necessarily wills infinite goodness itself which is himself. For God to sin or to be able to sin is really the same to say that God is not God or that he himself is not infinite being and infinite goodness itself.

But Humans were made innately good - without sin. Our nature is good, because our creator is good. Adam, Eve, Mary, and Jesus were created without the mark of original Sin. Adam and Eve were both “good” as God had said until they chose to go against the divine will. Mary chose to follow the divine will (which is why she is so honored) and Jesus did so as well (He had both a Human and a Divine will as shown in the agony of the Garden). God has infinite goodness, but he does also have a free will. So “could” Jesus have chosen to follow His human will - even though, through his infinite grace he would not have, no matter what…just as Mary “could” have.

 

[Richca]

Well to sin is to willingly go against the Will of God, so I would say God cannot sin. But Is something good because God does it, or does God do something because it is good.

I do agree with you that God chooses to do good, because we know God has free will and Jesus chose to follow His divine will over His human will during the agony in the garden. I would think that God does something because it is good, but at the same time, would that mean is goodness somehow outside of God and His control?

God is absolute or essential goodness itself. Philosophically, good is a transcendental property of being and being and good are convertible terms, that is, whatever is a being is good in so far as it is a being. Good is what is desirable and being or existence is desirable. God is absolute being itself so it follows that God is absolute goodness itself. Whatever is not God and which exists is something created by God such as us and the whole universe of creatures. God is the cause and source of the being and goodness of creatures as He created them. Creatures participate in being and goodness in a limited degree and in varied ways as coming from God, their creator. The being or existence and goodness of creatures is definitely not something outside of God and His control as the being of all creatures depends on God as to the first cause of their being and the preservation of creatures in being depends on God at every moment of their existence. Creatures are absolutely dependent on God every moment of their existence as well as for all their operations and activities; for unless creatures exist, they will not be able to act.

 

[quandy57]

Soo… These qualities such as Good, Being, Loving, Powerful, Knowing are part of God’s nature. And since He is infinite in existence, we have these words to describe ourselves as how much we are in line with each aspect of His nature? Since He is an infinite being then His nature is also infinite - therefore his Will is His nature? We depend on His existence, so since He is the Supreme being - that is to say the only being that is truly independent - we only participate in His nature - therefore our desire is to be like the Supreme being in all aspects of His nature?

God = Good to an infinite degree
God = Being to an infinite degree
God = Existence to an infinite degree
God = All Powerful to an infinite degree
God = All Knowing to an infinite degree
God = Love to an infinite degree

These are all things we have found through our own desires? Our own conscience? Words made just to describe each of His qualities? We are only these qualities as much as we are in line with His nature?

Since our nature is finite: we are subject to fallibility, to go against our nature, or to disorder our nature, but God cannot since He is infinite in nature?

• If this is all true, then I think I understand -

But then…does God not have free will? since His will is fixed on His nature?

or… is His will a free will since no one created His will, it is just a perfect will, incapable of fallibility? He has choices, but in His infinite nature will not (but “could” theoretically) will to go against His perfect will?

 

[Richca]

But Humans were made innately good - without sin. Our nature is good, because our creator is good. Adam, Eve, Mary, and Jesus were created without the mark of original Sin. Adam and Eve were both “good” as God had said until they chose to go against the divine will. Mary chose to follow the divine will (which is why she is so honored) and Jesus did so as well (He had both a Human and a Divine will as shown in the agony of the Garden). God has infinite goodness, but he does also have a free will. So “could” Jesus have chosen to follow His human will - even though, through his infinite grace he would not have, no matter what…just as Mary “could” have.

Well, firstly, I say that the act of sinning is not a perfection of the human free will but a defect, misuse, and imperfection of the free will act. Was it Jesus or St Paul who said that whoever commits sin is a slave to sin? So choosing evil or sin does not make us free but slaves. God himself is the measure of perfect liberty, freedom, and free will. No creature has greater liberty or free will than God but God cannot sin. The more our wills are like to God in this respect, the more perfect will be our wills and our liberty. Such are the wills and liberty of the angels and saints in heaven who cannot sin yet still have free will.

Yes, Jesus has both a divine will and a human will since he is one person, the eternal Son of God, in two natures. I don’t think Jesus could have chosen to follow his human will contrary to his divine will for his divine will is of infinite power. Also, the person in the human nature of Jesus is not a human person but the divine person of the second person of the Holy Trinity. We also believe that Jesus Christ is perfect God and perfect man, the two natures of Jesus were not in conflict with each other but the human nature of Christ was in perfect conformity with his divine nature. Still, as man Jesus had a created human nature and Jesus’ agony in the garden really portrays to us his humanity and also gives us an example to follow as when he said ‘not my will but thine be done.’ I don’t believe Jesus as man was capable of sinning due to the hypostatic union, for Jesus is God and God cannot sin.

Our Blessed Lady also is without sin. Our Blessed Lady is a pure creature unlike her divine Son who is both God and man. Being without sin, Mary never deviated from God’s will. I think it is a matter of theological opinion in the Church whether Mary was incapable of sinning due to a special priviledge of grace or whether Mary was capable of sinning but never did. That Mary remained sinless her whole life long is the teaching of the Church. My personal opinion which seems to me to give more honor and glory to Mary is that Mary was capable of sinning but never did but maybe I’m wrong, I know some theologians hold the other opinion. Free will is not all about sinning either. Lots of our choices may involve choosing between different actions that are good in themselves and not about sinning at all. For example, in an hour from now I may decide to go for a walk out at the park or maybe I’ll just walk around my block. Neither of these alternatives are evil in themselves. A free will choice may involve doing some better good over a lesser good or maybe between two or three different actions that may seem all equally good.

 

[quandy57]

Well, firstly, I say that the act of sinning is not a perfection of the human free will but a defect, misuse, and imperfection of the free will act.

I agree; sin or evil is a misuse of the free will. Free will is a gift and when we misused it, we were exiled by our own choice.

But we chose to misuse our free will because of the voice of Satan.

Satan misused his free will to reject God, but Satan was good before - a Seraph Angel of all angels. If God is infinitely desirable, then how exactly does Lucifer misuse His free will if

the two natures of Jesus were not in conflict with each other but the human nature of Christ was in perfect conformity with his divine nature.

and If the nature of Lucifer and God were not in conflict until His misuse of free will as the will of Lucifer was in conformity with God’s divine will.

Was God not in conformity with us in the Garden of Eden?

A free will choice may involve doing some better good over a lesser good or maybe between two or three different actions that may seem all equally good.

Isn’t part of free will the ability to go against His will? Otherwise couldn’t He have left the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil out of the Garden, and our free will would still be free will?

I think the only difference between perfect conformity and conformity is whether or not it is eternal (assuming there is full conformity on both sides of the equation).

Wouldn’t this all mean that in order for Free Will to be Free Will there has to be a time where we could misuse it? Where we could decide to not conform eternally? Meaning did God, did Jesus ever have an opportunity to misuse His free will or to decide if He wanted to conform His human will to His divine will for eternity?

Lucifer did - when he fell. Adam and Eve did - with the tree in the Garden when they fell. Mary did - when the Angel came to her and she responded “let it be done to me according to thy word”. Each of us do - at the first and every temptation after we are baptized.

Would not Jesus have this moment too? Say it was during the 40days while Satan was tempting Him (it would make sense since this was after Jesus was baptized); could Jesus have decided to turn rocks into bread?

…or sometime before He was baptized? could He have decided before the Holy Spirit came upon Him, before the Father said “this is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased”

 

[quandy57]

Well I found a satisfying answer to most of my question by Catholic Answers Staff:

You’re right in characterizing Lucifer’s rebellion as an insane act. Don’t forget that, although Lucifer had a superabundance of spiritual gifts, he was also endowed, as we are, with the gift of free will. God left him free to choose good over evil, and, as we know, he chose evil.

Consider Adam and Eve. Before the Fall they possessed immortality, control over their passions and appetites, the complete integrity of their wills, as well as a human intelligence far superior to that which we have now. Yet, like Lucifer, they chose to commit a mortal sin. This means God allowed them to exercise their free will.

As for the particular sin the bad angels committed, many theologians believe that in their pre-fallen state the angels were given a foreknowledge of humans (who would be inferior to them), as well as a foreknowledge that God himself (the second Person of the Trinity) would be incarnated as a man and redeem the universe through his death on the cross.

This revelation angered Lucifer because it meant he and the other angels would have to worship God incarnate. Lucifer and the other angels who fell were so proud of being superior to men that their overweening arrogance wouldn’t allow them to worship Jesus Christ the God-Man. This refusal–this non serviam–stemmed from pride. That, anyway, is the theologian’s theory.

But the bigger part of my question is how exactly is the free will of God exercised?

 

[quandy57]

Okay, I think I understand…

1. God’s nature is infinite, so He cannot go against His nature, that would be illogical.
2. We can go against our nature since our nature is finite.
3. We categorize God’s nature as good because He is the supreme being
   -good leads to fullness, while evil leads to emptiness
4. God can only choose to do good, because His nature is infinitely good
5. We cannot choose not to do good, whether or not we are in communion with Him because our nature is finite… until our nature conforms to His, because then our nature is in line with the infinite nature
6. When one’s nature is (or conformed to) the infinite (divine) nature, the one’s free will is fixed on goodness.
7. Jesus therefore could not have gone against the divine will, or do anything less than infinite goodness because He is God - therefore infinite in both wills which were perfectly aligned in goodness; while Mary could have until she surrendered her will to God’s will thus conforming her will to His thus fixing her will on goodness (just like all souls that go to heaven when they separate from the body)

 

[Richca]

Well I found a satisfying answer to most of my question by Catholic Answers Staff:

But the bigger part of my question is how exactly is the free will of God exercised?

You have a lot of questions that I can try and answer when I get a chance. This particular one can be answered at least in this way: creation, us and the rest of creation, was a free choice of God as the Catechism of the Catholic Church says. God did not create from any necessity of his nature. The creation of creatures does not add anything to God’s perfection and happiness. Creation benefits creatures especially rational creatures such as the angels and human beings who can share in the beatitude of God for all eternity. God could have chose to not create anything for eternity and he would have been eternally happy just as he was before creation. God freely created out of his love and goodness to communicate his goodness to creatures and so that they might share in his goodness.