God is known by intelligent thinking on logic and facts

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Atheism is an ancient philosophical position, maybe as old as religion itself. It believes something. It believes, probably based on the corruption of the body at death, that there is no soul and no afterlife. There is therefore no reason to believe in anything else supernatural, including God. There is a certain consistency to atheism that goes contrary to the hopes and beliefs of the vast majority of mankind.
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There is evidence of religious convictions going back to 30,000 BC: burial traditions reflecting belief in an after-life, places of worship, early stone-age theocracies, etc. References to gods or the sacred are as old as writing, with the oldest known full religious text go back to ~2600 BC. Religion is universal in human societies throughout history. What is the oldest recorded atheist text?
 
I haven’t dodged anything. I was trying to be specific so that I wouldn’t dodge anything.
But if you want to keep it simple, okay. I’ll say yes to both questions.
So, it’s settled: you accept that the universe has a beginning and you accept that anything with a beginning needs a cause outside itself to come into existence; what is your conclusion from intelligent thinking grounded on logic and facts?

That there is no God creator of the universe, or there is God creator of the universe?

Dear valekhai, you notice that I like to get you to see that God above everything else man thinks about Him to His credit or discredit, God is creator of the universe: and that is the conclusion from intelligent thinking founded on logic and facts.

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Best regards,

KingCoil
 
So, it’s settled: you accept that the universe has a beginning and you accept that anything with a beginning needs a cause outside itself to come into existence; what is your conclusion from intelligent thinking grounded on logic and facts?
My conclusion is that there is likely something (or was something) separate from the collection of space, time and matter that we call the universe that was able to bring the universe into existence. Exactly what that thing is (or was), I can’t say.
That there is no God creator of the universe, or there is God creator of the universe?
Calling the uncaused cause of the universe “God” doesn’t allow one to simply assume that it has all of the attributes of the theistic God. I hope that is obvious.
Dear valekhai, you notice that I like to get you to see that God above everything else man thinks about Him to His credit or discredit, God is creator of the universe: and that is the conclusion from intelligent thinking founded on logic and facts.
Yes, I did notice this. But I’m not convinced that the cause of the universe is in and of itself worthy of being called “God” simply for that reason. And I’m definitely not convinced it can be referred to as “Him.”
 
At risk of getting my arm chopped off:
My conclusion is that there is likely something (or was something) separate from the collection of space, time and matter that we call the universe that was able to bring the universe into existence. Exactly what that thing is (or was), I can’t say.
Would you say the ultimate cause of “everything” - including the universe - is caused or no?
Calling the uncaused cause of the universe “God” doesn’t allow one to simply assume that it has all of the attributes of the theistic God. I hope that is obvious.
Naturally the “first cause” need not necessarily be like YHWH or Allah.

But if it is the “first cause” of everything, the origin of everything, whether we consider it sapient or not, would it not cosmologically and morally be “God” - i.e, the first cause and the highest authority? Even if the first cause was an impersonal force or object?
 
My conclusion is that there is likely something (or was something) separate from the collection of space, time and matter that we call the universe that was able to bring the universe into existence. Exactly what that thing is (or was), I can’t say.

Calling the uncaused cause of the universe “God” doesn’t allow one to simply assume that it has all of the attributes of the theistic God. I hope that is obvious.

Yes, I did notice this. But I’m not convinced that the cause of the universe is in and of itself worthy of being called “God” simply for that reason. And I’m definitely not convinced it can be referred to as “Him.”
It is not only the origin of the universe that requires explanation but also the origin of rational beings - which is far more significant.
 
Would you say the ultimate cause of “everything” - including the universe - is caused or no?
Something needs to be causeless, which means that something either always existed or popped into existence from nothing. Both of them are kind of hard to wrap my head around, but the first seems slightly less so.
Naturally the “first cause” need not necessarily be like YHWH or Allah.

But if it is the “first cause” of everything, the origin of everything, whether we consider it sapient or not, would it not cosmologically and morally be “God” - i.e, the first cause and the highest authority? Even if the first cause was an impersonal force or object?
No. Why would an impersonal force be an “authority?”
Also, I’m not convinced that whatever the first cause is still exists. I think it’s possible that it could have ceased to exist as a result of bringing the rest of the universe into existence.
 
It is not only the origin of the universe that requires explanation but also the origin of rational beings - which is far more significant.
I think that rational beings can arise through evolution. If the intelligence of humans is the feature of the universe that you think demands an explanation more than anything else, why would the idea that an intelligence greater than ours existed without a cause make any sense? If something like intelligence can exist without a cause, it doesn’t need an explanation for its existence.
 
Something needs to be causeless, which means that something either always existed or popped into existence from nothing. Both of them are kind of hard to wrap my head around, but the first seems slightly less so.
I think we are of the same mind regarding this particular point - especially as the old saying “from nothing comes nothing” seems to hold true in science. The universe coming from literally nothing would seem to contradict not only our scientific discoveries, but the entire philosophy of science, i.e, all things are ultimately explicable.
No. Why would an impersonal force be an “authority?”
Gravity is an impersonal force. There are ways to defy it; there are ways you must obey it, or risk injury, death, and other evils. Goodness is also something of an authority, for no man, even if he does evil, ever desires to do evil. Even at the most basic level he thinks he is doing good, if only for himself.

Would you say that existence - for our universe is at most the whole of existence, and at least a subset in all existing things - could as existence, come from multiple things, or one only?
Also, I’m not convinced that whatever the first cause is still exists. I think it’s possible that it could have ceased to exist as a result of bringing the rest of the universe into existence.
In conjunction with my above question, I will say I think we can know the traits of an uncaused cause. If the first cause is nothing, we cannot assign any attributes to it. But if the first cause is something, it has attributes, the first known one being that it is uncaused.

But if a thing is uncaused, it has always existed. So I ask, what should stop this uncaused, ever-extant thing from existing until the end of the universe, or infinity?
 
I rarely venture into the philosophy forum but do so now just to point out that for many, God is not known by “intelligent thinking on logic and facts.”

For some, God is known through a profound encounter with the supernatural - an encounter which in many ways often defies intelligent thinking on logic and facts. For some, God is not known by reason but but by experience.

Maybe some atheists don’t need to be convinced that God exists through reason but instead need to experience God. For these, logic and reason is not going to do any good and trying to reason God into existence for them is like trying to shove a square peg into a round hole.

-Tim-
 
I think that rational beings can arise through evolution.
An opinion is not an explanation!
If the intelligence of humans is the feature of the universe that you think demands an explanation more than anything else, why would the idea that an intelligence greater than ours existed without a cause make any sense? If something like intelligence can exist without a cause, it doesn’t need an explanation for its existence.
It certainly needs clarification. 🙂
 
I rarely venture into the philosophy forum but do so now just to point out that for many, God is not known by “intelligent thinking on logic and facts.”

For some, God is known through a profound encounter with the supernatural - an encounter which in many ways often defies intelligent thinking on logic and facts. For some, God is not known by reason but but by experience.

Maybe some atheists don’t need to be convinced that God exists through reason but instead need to experience God. For these, logic and reason is not going to do any good and trying to reason God into existence for them is like trying to shove a square peg into a round hole.

-Tim-
Welcome, Tim! Your adventure is successful. 🙂 As Pascal pointed out, the heart has its reasons which reason does not know. Yet that doesn’t mean reason is a useless mistress - or in Luther’s words “a whore”. :eek:
 
I think that rational beings can arise through evolution. If the intelligence of humans is the feature of the universe that you think demands an explanation more than anything else, why would the idea that an intelligence greater than ours existed without a cause make any sense? If something like intelligence can exist without a cause, it doesn’t need an explanation for its existence.
Hello friend,

I have to say that I can find no way to see how rational, intelligent beings can arise through evolution without a personal God.

Think about it this way. If all that exists in the universe is purely physical things, then every event is nothing more than the result of collocations of atoms (to use Bertrand Russell’s phrase). If that is the case, then we have no more reason to trust the arrangement of molecules in our brains than we have to trust the arrangement of sand on the seashore. Both are nothing more than the result of lots of purely physical, undirected interactions.

Also, all the things we think we know which are not physical (the laws of logic, all of mathematics, abstract truth, goodness, beauty, meaning, justice) are really just products in our physical brains of those physical interactions, and there is absolutely no reason to think that those ideas have any correspondence with reality. If we assert a perfectly physical universe with nothing more, then those ideas definitely do NOT correspond with reality, because those are not physical entities. In which case, everything that we value most as human beings turns out to be an evolutionary side-effect without any intrinsic value. But, this contradicts the entire experience and testimony of the human race, the reality and value of the parenthetical list at the top of this paragraph.

It is not true that “something like intelligence” can exist without a cause. Everything, except for the very essence of existence itself (sometimes also known as God), needs a cause. Nothing except Being itself can sustain its own existence, and so it depends on Being itself for a cause.

You ask a good question about how an intelligence greater than ours can come into existence without a cause. The answer is that Being itself is itself intelligent. Since things other than Being itself, the essence of existence, exist, then Being itself must have created them. Since Being itself creates, it must have a will. A will requires intelligence.

Also, since our intelligence is a created thing (rather, we are created things with intelligence…there is no such thing as a pure intelligence, only intelligent beings), our intelligence must find its source somewhere (again, we do not create ourselves). All things that exist find their source in Being itself (God), and so Being itself must be intelligent.
 
Welcome, Tim! Your adventure is successful. 🙂 As Pascal pointed out, the heart has its reasons which reason does not know. Yet that doesn’t mean reason is a useless mistress - or in Luther’s words “a whore”. :eek:
The only thing I am saying is that for some, reason and intellect and logic and facts have little bearing on whether they encounter God in their lives each day. May want to know instead why their life stinks and where all the peace and joy Christians always talk about is. If you can answer those questions, then you will have a convert.

If the OP is not getting results by logical reasoning with people then maybe the definition of insanity applies here.

My other account with 7000+ posts is not accessible. I’ll leave you all to your philosophy and retire with grace like Richard Petty.

-Tim-
 
There may in fact be something uncaused and uncreated that exists (or existed) outside of our material universe that was responsible for bringing the universe into existence. That’s a bit hard to swallow, but not any harder than the idea of the universe itself being infinite and uncaused.
Hello friend. I disagree with you here. The idea that the universe is uncaused does not hold up well to scrutiny because we see that everything in the universe comes into being and passes away, and nothing has the power to create itself or sustain its own being. Everything that we observe is dependent on something else. Another way of putting this is that everything we see does not exist necessarily (it does not have to exist), it exists only potentially (can or cannot exist). Thus, nothing physical sustains its own being.
So even if we assume that this uncaused cause exists, and even if people insist on calling it “God” (because being the uncaused cause is part of what say the word “God” means), we still don’t know anything else about it just from that. We don’t know that it’s intelligent, personal, omniscient or omnipotent, or that it had a particular plan, or that it cares about what goes on in the universe, or that it defines morality and will judge or actions, or that it responds to prayer and intervenes on our behalf.
Except for the fact that, if intelligence and personality exist (and intelligent and personal beings which we observe are obviously not uncaused), those features of the universe had to come from somewhere. Their source is in the uncaused cause. So, the uncaused cause is, in a sense, not just intelligent or personal, but the very essence of intelligence and personality. Since those things do exist, and they do not create themselves, then it logically follows that the uncaused cause was the source and is itself intelligent and personal.

Also, since the universe does not have to exist, but it does, then it must have been caused, brought about, and the uncaused cause had to will that event. Will requires intelligence, which is the basis of personality. If the uncaused cause did not will the universe, then the universe would not exist. Obviously it does, so the uncaused cause has a will. Since it has a will, it has intelligence. Since it is intelligent, it is personal.

Since all potential objects depend for their existence on the uncaused cause, then the uncaused cause is intimately (as intimately as possible!) involved in the sustenance and creation of everything that exists in the universe, and must be omniscient. Time itself is not necessary. As we have observed, time is not an absolute. Time itself is a created thing, and the universe must be sustained (since nothing in it is self-sustaining from a metaphysical standpoint) moment to moment. Every moment must be created. So, every moment is known to the uncaused cause.
 
By the way, I made a series of videos on youtube (sorry for the sound quality) that address some of these issues.

youtube.com/user/misterD418

Look especially for the “Why I am not an Atheist” videos.
 
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Originally Posted by KingCoil
Dear valekhai, you notice that I like to get you to see that God above everything else man thinks about Him to His credit or discredit, God is creator of the universe: and that is the conclusion from intelligent thinking founded on logic and facts.

Yes, I did notice this. But I’m not convinced that the cause of the universe is in and of itself worthy of being called “God” simply for that reason. And I’m definitely not convinced it can be referred to as “Him.”
Well, let me ask you what other attributes from you must the creator of the universe possess and exercise in order to deserve the name of God?

Recall that with Christians they above everything else know the existence of God as He Who “in the beginning created heaven and earth,” that is the first verse ever of the Bible in Genesis 1:1.

And in the first verse of the Apostles’ Creed which is the most binding fundamental statement of the Christian faith, they also add this attribute to God – in addition to being creator of heaven and earth – namely, that He is “the Father almighty,” in this manner they give an identity to God in relation to mankind, namely, He is analogous to father to mankind, as mankind understands what it is to be father.

But if this Father is not the creator of the universe, then He is not almighty, I will not take Him to be any father to myself.

Now, tell me what are the attributes you determine that the creator of heaven and earth, of the universe, must have to be deserving of the title God; you seem to be very particular about the name, God, as to oppose it to the title of creator of the universe.

Tell me, if God is not the creator of heaven and earth, of the universe, will whatever attributes you determine to award to God give him any worth at all?

Okay, dear valekhai, tell me by a quick enumeration what are the attributes of this creator of heaven and earth, of the universe, you insist that he must possess and exercise to be awarded by you the name of God.

Best regards,

KingCoil
 
If God is not the creator of the universe Who is known to exist by man on his intelligent thinking through grounding his mind on logic and facts, I ask you, fellow posters here: will any experience of God counts for anything at all, or any belief in God at all?

That would mean that people who experience God or believe in God but have nothing of intelligent thinking founded on logic and facts, such people should be dismissed as un-intelligent beings with no reasoning power to know the existence of things from facts and working on logic.

Why bother to talk to them at all, it would be like talking with a-rational entities?

The prefix a in a-rational means bereft of reasoning power].

KingCoil
 
If God is not the creator of the universe Who is known to exist by man on his intelligent thinking through grounding his mind on logic and facts, I ask you, fellow posters here: will any experience of God counts for anything at all, or any belief in God at all?

That would mean that people who experience God or believe in God but have nothing of intelligent thinking founded on logic and facts, such people should be dismissed as un-intelligent beings with no reasoning power to know the existence of things from facts and working on logic.

Why bother to talk to them at all, it would be like talking with a-rational entities?

The prefix a in a-rational means bereft of reasoning power]. The experience of God, the belief in God, etc., are all important to the person and can be used in a discussion. They do not prove anything, but they may be persuasive.
I cannot imagine any proof of God, but those who believe in His existence should be treated with respect, their experiences considered and made part of the great, ongoing conversation.

KingCoil
 
Think about it this way. If all that exists in the universe is purely physical things, then every event is nothing more than the result of collocations of atoms (to use Bertrand Russell’s phrase). If that is the case, then we have no more reason to trust the arrangement of molecules in our brains than we have to trust the arrangement of sand on the seashore. Both are nothing more than the result of lots of purely physical, undirected interactions.
This seems like an equivocation.
If you were hungry and I put a plate in front of you with a sandwich and a rock, you wouldn’t look at the two and say “both the sandwich and the rock are made of atoms, so they’re the same; since the rock can’t nourish me, the sandwich can’t, either.” Grains of sand and neurons are very, very different things, and you can’t ignore the difference just by saying “they’re just atoms.”
The idea of “trusting” a beach doesn’t make sense. The idea of trusting a massively interconnected network of cells that are able to receive, compare, and store sense experience does. One provides information, the other does not.
And, yes, they are both physical.
Also, all the things we think we know which are not physical (the laws of logic, all of mathematics, abstract truth, goodness, beauty, meaning, justice) are really just products in our physical brains of those physical interactions, and there is absolutely no reason to think that those ideas have any correspondence with reality. If we assert a perfectly physical universe with nothing more, then those ideas definitely do NOT correspond with reality, because those are not physical entities. In which case, everything that we value most as human beings turns out to be an evolutionary side-effect without any intrinsic value. But, this contradicts the entire experience and testimony of the human race, the reality and value of the parenthetical list at the top of this paragraph.
Those things you refer to (logic, math, truth, etc.) are all descriptions of relations of things. The things exist, the relationships exist, our understandings of the relationships exist, so this is all compatible with merely a physical reality.
If that is insufficient, I don’t see how adding a God to the picture improves it. Taking just the example of the laws of logic, how can a God provide a satisfactory account for logic that a merely physical universe cannot?
You ask a good question about how an intelligence greater than ours can come into existence without a cause. The answer is that Being itself is itself intelligent. Since things other than Being itself, the essence of existence, exist, then Being itself must have created them. Since Being itself creates, it must have a will. A will requires intelligence.
I’m going to reject this. I think it’s another equivocation. If an artist makes a sculpture, we call that “creating.” There is will involved. But when we are talking about “Being itself” creating something, we are not talking about the same kind of process, so I don’t take it as a given that there is will involved.
Also, since our intelligence is a created thing (rather, we are created things with intelligence…there is no such thing as a pure intelligence, only intelligent beings), our intelligence must find its source somewhere (again, we do not create ourselves). All things that exist find their source in Being itself (God), and so Being itself must be intelligent.
Does this work for all attributes? How about fizziness? There is no such thing as pure fizziness, only things that are fizzy, so fizziness must find its source somewhere. All things that exist find their source in God, so God must be fizzy.
 
Except for the fact that, if intelligence and personality exist (and intelligent and personal beings which we observe are obviously not uncaused), those features of the universe had to come from somewhere. Their source is in the uncaused cause. So, the uncaused cause is, in a sense, not just intelligent or personal, but the very essence of intelligence and personality. Since those things do exist, and they do not create themselves, then it logically follows that the uncaused cause was the source and is itself intelligent and personal.
Please refer back to my “fizziness” question in the previous response.
Also, since the universe does not have to exist, but it does, then it must have been caused, brought about, and the uncaused cause had to will that event. Will requires intelligence, which is the basis of personality. If the uncaused cause did not will the universe, then the universe would not exist. Obviously it does, so the uncaused cause has a will. Since it has a will, it has intelligence. Since it is intelligent, it is personal.
“since the universe does not have to exist”…I do not accept that premise.
And like I said before, I’m not convinced that the concept of “will” is applicable to the uncaused cause.
Since all potential objects depend for their existence on the uncaused cause, then the uncaused cause is intimately (as intimately as possible!) involved in the sustenance and creation of everything that exists in the universe, and must be omniscient. Time itself is not necessary. As we have observed, time is not an absolute. Time itself is a created thing, and the universe must be sustained (since nothing in it is self-sustaining from a metaphysical standpoint) moment to moment. Every moment must be created. So, every moment is known to the uncaused cause.
Being omniscient is a claim about possessing knowledge, which is only possible for intelligent beings. I’m still not on board with the idea of the uncaused cause being such a thing.
 
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