God is laughing up His sleeve

[Faithdancer]

Cosmologists and physicists assure us that we are close to finding both the exact origin and extent of the universe and the absolutely smallest sub-atomic particle. However, in the history of science, every time scientists declared that they were certain about either of these issues, they were proven wrong.

These ideas also seem to contradict mathematical infinity. There is, according to the principles of mathematics themselves, no maximum number and no minimum number. There is, therefore, infinity whichever way one measures, smaller or larger. Yet infinite time and infinite space are both impossible for the human mind to truly understand. Such a mind would have to itself have…infinite capability.

There is one mind, however, that is capable. This, Christians call God. However some have made science their God, in the belief that science will prove that infinity does not really exist, that we will discover that elusive, ultimately small particle or that absolute limit to the universe, or to time itself. These individuals substitute science for the God of Abraham, Moses, and Jesus Christ. Yet the substitution provides no additional enlightenment, and they still cannot prove that the God of the Bible does not exist.

This is why I say God is laughing up his sleeve…laughing at the cosmologists and quantum physicists endlessly chasing their tails. Perhaps He smiles upon their discoveries, knowing that each “discovery” is just another in an endless procession of nesting dolls, never reaching the “end.”

 

[Ion]

Cosmologists and physicists assure us that we are close to finding both the exact origin and extent of the universe and the absolutely smallest sub-atomic particle. However, in the history of science, every time scientists declared that they were certain about either of these issues, they were proven wrong.

These ideas also seem to contradict mathematical infinity. There is, according to the principles of mathematics themselves, no maximum number and no minimum number. There is, therefore, infinity whichever way one measures, smaller or larger. Yet infinite time and infinite space are both impossible for the human mind to truly understand. Such a mind would have to itself have…infinite capability.

There is one mind, however, that is capable. This, Christians call God. However some have made science their God, in the belief that science will prove that infinity does not really exist, that we will discover that elusive, ultimately small particle or that absolute limit to the universe, or to time itself. These individuals substitute science for the God of Abraham, Moses, and Jesus Christ. Yet the substitution provides no additional enlightenment, and they still cannot prove that the God of the Bible does not exist.

This is why I say God is laughing up his sleeve…laughing at the cosmologists and quantum physicists endlessly chasing their tails. Perhaps He smiles upon their discoveries, knowing that each “discovery” is just another in an endless procession of nesting dolls, never reaching the “end.”

The universe is proven finite. By the symetry of the inverse there should exist the “smaller particle” in the universe. Infinity is a theoretical concept possible to imagine and think about it. This was done before we have found that the universe is finite…looks like a non-sense, but our mind is capable of this. We are not as capable as God is of couse, but we have a glimpse of it. We can imagine something beyond reality. I think this is proof of design.

 

[tonyrey]

Cosmologists and physicists assure us that we are close to finding both the exact origin and extent of the universe and the absolutely smallest sub-atomic particle. However, in the history of science, every time scientists declared that they were certain about either of these issues, they were proven wrong.

These ideas also seem to contradict mathematical infinity. There is, according to the principles of mathematics themselves, no maximum number and no minimum number. There is, therefore, infinity whichever way one measures, smaller or larger. Yet infinite time and infinite space are both impossible for the human mind to truly understand. Such a mind would have to itself have…infinite capability.

There is one mind, however, that is capable. This, Christians call God. However some have made science their God, in the belief that science will prove that infinity does not really exist, that we will discover that elusive, ultimately small particle or that absolute limit to the universe, or to time itself. These individuals substitute science for the God of Abraham, Moses, and Jesus Christ. Yet the substitution provides no additional enlightenment, and they still cannot prove that the God of the Bible does not exist.

This is why I say God is laughing up his sleeve…laughing at the cosmologists and quantum physicists endlessly chasing their tails. Perhaps He smiles upon their discoveries, knowing that each “discovery” is just another in an endless procession of nesting dolls, never reaching the “end.”

An original and thought-provoking post.

 

[JerryZ]

Cosmologists and physicists assure us that we are close to finding both the exact origin and extent of the universe and the absolutely smallest sub-atomic particle. However, in the history of science, every time scientists declared that they were certain about either of these issues, they were proven wrong.

These ideas also seem to contradict mathematical infinity. There is, according to the principles of mathematics themselves, no maximum number and no minimum number. There is, therefore, infinity whichever way one measures, smaller or larger. Yet infinite time and infinite space are both impossible for the human mind to truly understand. Such a mind would have to itself have…infinite capability.

There is one mind, however, that is capable. This, Christians call God. However some have made science their God, in the belief that science will prove that infinity does not really exist, that we will discover that elusive, ultimately small particle or that absolute limit to the universe, or to time itself. These individuals substitute science for the God of Abraham, Moses, and Jesus Christ. Yet the substitution provides no additional enlightenment, and they still cannot prove that the God of the Bible does not exist.

This is why I say God is laughing up his sleeve…laughing at the cosmologists and quantum physicists endlessly chasing their tails. Perhaps He smiles upon their discoveries, knowing that each “discovery” is just another in an endless procession of nesting dolls, never reaching the “end.”

It was a belief up to a few years ago that the universe was infinite and immutable. Even Albert Eintein held.
It was a Jesuite priest that shattered this belief. He expanded on the observations of astronomers that saw some peculiar behaviour in the light they were observing from all the galaxies around us.
As a result of this we now know that the universe is Not Infinite but more importantly that it is not immutable. Science has been able to measure the exact moment that the universe was created. And science also cannot come up with a way to explain this creation without there also being a Creator (Cause/Effect).
So yes I agree with your title on God laughing but only at those that think that “science” will be able to disproof Him.

 

[GEddie]

The universe is proven finite. By the symetry of the inverse there should exist the “smaller particle” in the universe. Infinity is a theoretical concept possible to imagine and think about it. This was done before we have found that the universe is finite…looks like a non-sense, but our mind is capable of this. We are not as capable as God is of couse, but we have a glimpse of it. We can imagine something beyond reality. I think this is proof of design.

How is the universe proven to be finite?

The fact that the subdivision of matter does not continue forever does not at all mean that space does not does so.

ICXC NIKA

 

[LongJohnSilver]

Cosmologists and physicists assure us that we are close to finding both the exact origin and extent of the universe and the absolutely smallest sub-atomic particle. However, in the history of science, every time scientists declared that they were certain about either of these issues, they were proven wrong.

These ideas also seem to contradict mathematical infinity. There is, according to the principles of mathematics themselves, no maximum number and no minimum number. There is, therefore, infinity whichever way one measures, smaller or larger. Yet infinite time and infinite space are both impossible for the human mind to truly understand. Such a mind would have to itself have…infinite capability.

There is one mind, however, that is capable. This, Christians call God. However some have made science their God, in the belief that science will prove that infinity does not really exist, that we will discover that elusive, ultimately small particle or that absolute limit to the universe, or to time itself. These individuals substitute science for the God of Abraham, Moses, and Jesus Christ. Yet the substitution provides no additional enlightenment, and they still cannot prove that the God of the Bible does not exist.

This is why I say God is laughing up his sleeve…laughing at the cosmologists and quantum physicists endlessly chasing their tails. Perhaps He smiles upon their discoveries, knowing that each “discovery” is just another in an endless procession of nesting dolls, never reaching the “end.”

The universe being infinite and thus being in principle incomprehensible to humans? I’m not saying you’re wrong, but it sounds to me contradictory to the idea of order in Creation.

 

[Sair]

Cosmologists and physicists assure us that we are close to finding both the exact origin and extent of the universe and the absolutely smallest sub-atomic particle. However, in the history of science, every time scientists declared that they were certain about either of these issues, they were proven wrong.

But certainly not by any religious dogma…

 

[lizaanne]

God has sleeves?

~Liza

 

[Cricket123]

However some have made science their God, in the belief that science will prove that infinity does not really exist…

Actually, if you consider mathematics a science, it has been proven that not only does infinity exist, there exist an infinite number of ever increasing infinities, each infinitely larger than the previous.

Look into the work of Georg Cantor if you find this interesting.

Or not.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

God has sleeves?

~Liza

Yes, and they are made of silk, because silk is soft and comfy, and if I were God I would want to be soft and comfy

As to the post, my friend and I were having a rather ugly debate yesterday and this came up. He somehow thinks that because we can (supposedly) figure out the origin of the universe, this negates the need for a God. He also seems to think that quantum physics has “proven” that something can come from absolute nothingness on it’s own. He also, incidentally, thinks that Catholics suppress women and force their views on other people. (like I said, it was an ugly debate… we’re usually pretty civilized.)

Even if we can understand the origin of the universe, what people who think like this don’t understand is that this doesn’t affect God, or belief in God at all. Of course there was a physical beginning to the universe, otherwise the universe wouldn’t be physical. Further, it stands to reason that, as we become more capable of understanding our physical universe, we would eventually be able to understand how it began.

So what?

Can anyone tell me exactly what that does to God? Does it mean God doesn’t exist? Does it mean that God didn’t set it in motion? Does it mean we have no need of God? No, it means exactly that we know how the physical universe started.

We should celebrate such a discovery, because it is leading us to a further and more complex understanding of how God works.

(Also, as a note, this origin of the universe theory still makes the assumption of the existence of physics, chemistry, etc. It does not, and really cannot, explain conclusively how space time / atoms, electron, etc. appeared out of absolute nothingness.)

 

[yppop]

How is the universe proven to be finite?

If you believe the big bang describes reality, then the universe started as a infinitesimal object called the singularity, which has expanded to the its enormous present size. To go from infinitesimal to enormous demands that at one time the universe was the size of a basketball. If it was the size of a basketball, it was finite then and must still be finite because nothing can expand to infinity in finite time, which currently has been determined by science as 13.7 billion years. Isn’t that is scientific proof?

The fact that the subdivision of matter does not continue forever does not at all mean that space does not does so.

At the present, your statement is indisputable. However, IMO, just as they (Planck and Einstein) demonstarted that mass-energy was discrete and gave impetus to modern physics, eventually science will decide that space-time is also discreteto replace the original and present assumption that space and time are “intuitively” continuous in spite of Zeno’s brilliant argiument that they are not. The assumption of continuity, that both space and time are infinitely divisable led to the problems with solutions of infinity in some of the most basic equations.

There is work proceeding in the discrete space-time direction. It is called discrete physics and quantum loop physics.

When science does get around to digitizing space-time they will find that God does exist int the gaps!

Yppop

 

[Pat_Albertson]

The visible universe is finite and at one time was but a minute speck, but since its geometry is hyperbolic, it is presumed to be a tiny portion of something infinitely large, and was so even from very near* the beginning.

*I leave out the zero point because of the breakdown of conventional physics at the initial singularity

 

[Neildown]

Cosmologists and physicists assure us that we are close to finding both the exact origin and extent of the universe and the absolutely smallest sub-atomic particle. However, in the history of science, every time scientists declared that they were certain about either of these issues, they were proven wrong.

These ideas also seem to contradict mathematical infinity. There is, according to the principles of mathematics themselves, no maximum number and no minimum number. There is, therefore, infinity whichever way one measures, smaller or larger. Yet infinite time and infinite space are both impossible for the human mind to truly understand. Such a mind would have to itself have…infinite capability.

There is one mind, however, that is capable. This, Christians call God. However some have made science their God, in the belief that science will prove that infinity does not really exist, that we will discover that elusive, ultimately small particle or that absolute limit to the universe, or to time itself. These individuals substitute science for the God of Abraham, Moses, and Jesus Christ. Yet the substitution provides no additional enlightenment, and they still cannot prove that the God of the Bible does not exist.

This is why I say God is laughing up his sleeve…laughing at the cosmologists and quantum physicists endlessly chasing their tails. Perhaps He smiles upon their discoveries, knowing that each “discovery” is just another in an endless procession of nesting dolls, never reaching the “end.”

Excellent observation; I give you props for this, as I have always struggled in trying to get an intellectual point across clearly, and you do it very well here. This is largely the type of thinking that affirmed my belief in the Church. Many different personalities have this knack for calling Christians naive and\or “narrow minded” yet they disregard the fact that we account for more than they dare to even acknowledge as a possibility.

 

[JDaniel]

Actually, if you consider mathematics a science, it has been proven that not only does infinity exist, there exist an infinite number of ever increasing infinities, each infinitely larger than the previous.

Look into the work of Georg Cantor if you find this interesting.

Or not.

Cricket:

Wait! There’s something wrong with this picture! Let’s just look at the words: “there exist an infinite number of ever increasing infinities, each infinitely larger than the previous.”

Where’s the infinity? If an ‘infinity’ keeps growing, isn’t that a “finity?”

God bless,
jd

 

[yppop]

The visible universe is finite and at one time was but a minute speck, but since its geometry is hyperbolic, it is presumed to be a tiny portion of something infinitely large, and was so even from very near* the beginning.

*I leave out the zero point because of the breakdown of conventional physics at the initial singularity

Are you saying that the “visible universe” is merely a part of the “universe”, which is something infinitely large. So even if it expanded, the “visible universe” is still part of “something infinitely large” and hence is infinite because we are wrong to separate and refer to the “visible universe” as the “universe”. Here we run into a problem of definitions,. I will agree that defining the “universe” as that which includes both the “visible universe” and everthing that extends before and beyond, which is infinitely extended in both time and space, then you are correct and the “universe” is infinite. That definition is preferred by atheists, materialistic scientists, and pantheists because it argues against a beginning of the universe in order to imply that there is no God. I prefer the definition of “universe” that refers to the 3-dimensional manifold that contains all that can be observed and which you refer to as “the visible universe”. That which lies before and beyond the visible universe can only be the source and cause of the visible universe, such as the MInd of God.

You are, of course, free to choose either definiton; I will stick with the universe as a finite object and the implication that there is a God… Please correct me if I misinterpreted anything you wrote.

Yppop

 

[Ion]

Cricket:

Wait! There’s something wrong with this picture! Let’s just look at the words: “there exist an infinite number of ever increasing infinities, each infinitely larger than the previous.”

Where’s the infinity? If an ‘infinity’ keeps growing, isn’t that a “finity?”

God bless,
jd

To understand it you need to be familiar with mathematics…

 

[Alberti_Devoveo]

To understand it you need to be familiar with mathematics…

I am very familiar with mathematics, and I have never seen anyone state that an infinity can grow (increase).

 

[Peter_Plato]

…eventually science will decide that space-time is also discreteto replace the original and present assumption that space and time are “intuitively” continuous in spite of Zeno’s brilliant argiument that they are not. The assumption of continuity, that both space and time are infinitely divisable led to the problems with solutions of infinity in some of the most basic equations.

There is work proceeding in the discrete space-time direction. It is called discrete physics and quantum loop physics.

When science does get around to digitizing space-time they will find that God does exist int the gaps!

Yppop

Don’t the Planck minimums for duration of time (tp=5.39X10-44) and interval of space (lp=1.62X10-33) establish that there are discrete finite limits for both?

 

[Ion]

I am very familiar with mathematics, and I have never seen anyone state that an infinity can grow (increase).

You take an infinite set (ex set of natural numbers N) and then you build the power set of it P(N), then the power set of the result P(P(N)), and so on…
It doesn’t increase N in itself, of course

 

[JDaniel]

To understand it you need to be familiar with mathematics…

Ion:

I am very familiar with mathematics. Even Cantor regarded his set theory as the abstraction that it is.

It will no doubt take some time, but I can write out the line of real numbers up to any number you give me the shorthand sign for. But no one can do that for infinity. Not only does an actual infinity not exist in the physical universe, in either direction, but also there would be no space, or place, for more than one infinity - if it could. Furthermore, infinity is an indeterminate.

God bless,
jd