God is mean?

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quote: Ghosty
The best example of this is the mikveh, which is the Jewish ritual bath to clean one of their impurities. It’s still used in Orthodox Judaism, and is the basis for Christian Baptism. John the Baptist was a huge proponent of the *mikveh, *hence his title, and before Jesus began His ministry, John stated that a new kind of mikveh would be coming. From Matthew 3:
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“Lord, cleanse me from my iniquities, and wash away
my sin.”

A fascinating insight. M*ikveh *in relation to Baptism.
[Puts me in mind of washing in the Ganges.]

Still, I think of the biblical quote:

“If your sins be as scarlet, I will make them whiter
than snow.”

What? several centuries* before* Christ?

And, while I agree with the concept that sacramentality
is* a* key, I maintain that to hold that there occurred
an ontological change, as a result of the original sin,
is a highly flawed concept.

When ritual is seen as sacrament, it’s an emotionally
touching exercise of humans bestowing meaning on a
given behavior, but not compelling, I think - unless one
accepts Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah.

Or, not compelling enough to override the Torah -
or to set aside the everlasting Covenant, made, by God,
with Israel.

Just my view. Many thanks, Ghosty.

reen12
 
Or, not compelling enough to override the Torah -
or to set aside the everlasting Covenant, made, by God,
with Israel.
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Remember, the Catholic Church does not believe that either of these should be done. It simply points out that the Covenant points forward to a time in which both Jews and Gentiles will share in it, with the coming of the Messiah. There is much debate within Orthodox Judaism as to what will be removed and what will be retained when that happens. Catholics simply believe that Jesus was the promised Messiah, and subsequently the Apostles did the work of removing and retaining, or “binding and loosing”. It’s more a question of “when”, rather than “what” will happen, IMO, as the “what” is a mystery in Judaism.

Peace and God bless!
 
Feanaro's Wife:
Ok, I know that God is an all powerful, all loving God. I believe that with my mind and my heart. My problem is in trying to explain to a person why God would punish all of humanity for Adam and Eve’s disobedience. Could you point me in the right direction?

Malia
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Think of it in terms of gifts given…

Adam and Eve were given three kinds of gifts all of which were “good”:
  1. Natural gifts
  2. Supernatural gifts (sanctifying grace)
  3. Preternatural gifts (eg. freedom from suffering, death)
Supernatural and preternatural gifts instrinsically “elevated” the natural gift. Kinda like a holy catalyst which equipped nature to be better than it could be without such elevating gifts.

After they sinned, they lost supernatural and preternatural gifts for themselves, and for their progeny. Their progeny could not automatically receive supernatural and preternatural gifts through natural human generation. Their once “elevated” nature became a “fallen” nature.

It’s like if my Dad was once very rich, then got caught stealing from the company, was fired and put into jail. I don’t, as his progeny, get the benefits of his riches before his sin. I inherit what I inherit and don’t have a right to the riches he once had but justifiably lost through his wickedness.

So, the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve receive a very wonderful gift–human nature–through natural generation. Instead of shaking an angry fist at God for not getting more gifts, (as if God owed us these gifts to begin with), I think we should be thankful for the gifts we are in fact given. They are gratuitous gifts, afterall, not something anybody has ever deserved.

God is a gift-giver and we are blessed with many gifts. Can he give us more gifts? Certainly. Is God unjust for not giving us the gifts he initial gave Adam and Eve? I don’t think so. It is the Gift-giver’s prerogative to give and/or no longer give gifts.

If I stopped giving my teenagers that gift I call “allowance,” would I be unjust in doing so? I’m sure my teenagers would think so. However, the gift is mine to give and mine to stop giving. If I give my boy a $20 gift today, he does not then have a condign right to demand $20 from me tomorrow based upon my past generosity.

Nonetheless, God has given us a means to receive the supernatural gift that Adam and Eve once had–and that means is belief in Christ. He didn’t owe us this second chance into paradise, but God gave us a second chance just the same. Heaven too is a gift that is not owed to anyone, but is a completely gratuitous gift from God.
 
why didn’t God give Adam and Eve a second chance?
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God did give Adam and Eve a second chance. I’ve attached (I hope) an Icon which depicts Christ lifting Adam and Eve by the hand out of Hades.

Resurrection
monasteryicons.com/cgi-bin/hazel.cgi/hzpi/u/HzSt0110101716101015170U0n0n110n171117111216/hazel.cgi?randomizer=275541103&action=DETAIL&item=453&EXPANDED=1

Based on ancient prototypes, our icon of The Resurrection shows Christ’s triumphant descent into hades after His death on the Cross on Great Friday. As described in the Apocryphal Gospel of Nicodemus, we seen Him freeing those souls held in the bondage of death, and also bestowing freedom on those righteous souls who were as yet unable to enter Paradise. In this paschal icon these holy ones stand on either side of Christ, looking on in worshipful joy: King David, Solomon, Saint John the Baptist, Abel the Righteous, and the Prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah. Raising them up the Savior brings them into Paradise and sets them free. He also raises Adam and Eve by the hands from their tombs, symbolizing the freeing of mankind from its imprisonment in fallen nature that was accomplished by the Resurrection.

http://www.monasteryicons.com/products/large/453.jpg
 
quote: Ghosty
Remember, the Catholic Church does not believe that either of these should be done. It simply points out that the Covenant points forward to a time in which both Jews and Gentiles will share in it, with the coming of the Messiah. There is much debate within Orthodox Judaism as to what will be removed and what will be retained when that happens. Catholics simply believe that Jesus was the promised Messiah, and subsequently the Apostles did the work of removing and retaining, or “binding and loosing”. It’s more a question of “when”, rather than “what” will happen, IMO, as the “what” is a mystery in Judaism.
Click to expand...
quote: Ghosty
Catholics simply believe that Jesus was the promised Messiah, and subsequently the Apostles did the work of removing and retaining, or “binding and loosing”.
Click to expand...
A fine, fine post, Ghosty. Thank you.

I never considered the “binding and loosing” from
that perspective. *

I think you make a wonderful Apologist, and are most
kind.

I wish you peace and joy in the faith, Ghosty.

reen12 👋*
 
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