God is not a...

[PRmerger]

Did someone say that? You said social responsibility. I repeated what you said. I’ve assumed that you think social responsibility is a good thing. I agree with you.

So what is it, in the atheistic worldview, that makes something a good choice if not “it’s better for society”?

That is, tell me what makes an act good or bad, and why I am obligated to do this act.

 

[PRmerger]

Did someone say that? You said social responsibility. I repeated what you said. I’ve assumed that you think social responsibility is a good thing. I agree with you.

And you’re still left with the problem of refuting the concepts I proposed.

If we should do what’s good for society, and society decides that it’s good to kill folks who don’t like like us, should I do this?

 

[Bradski]

So what is it, in the atheistic worldview, that makes something a good choice if not “it’s better for society”?

That is, tell me what makes an act good or bad, and why I am obligated to do this act.

An act is bad if it is socially irresponsible. I am absolutely certain that you agree. If you don’t, then you give me an example of something that is socially irresponsible that is good. Or something that is bad that is not socially irresponsible.

 

[PRmerger]

An act is bad if it is socially irresponsible. I am absolutely certain that you agree. If you don’t, then you give me an example of something that is socially irresponsible that is good. Or something that is bad that is not socially irresponsible.

So there you go. You do subscribe to the “it’s better for society, therefore it’s moral” paradigm.

QED

 

[Bradski]

So there you go. You do subscribe to the “it’s better for society, therefore it’s moral” paradigm.

Well, if I agreed with that then someone might say that genocide is better for society and that wouldn’t be socially responsible. So let’s go with social responsibility. We both think that’s a good thing.

Unless you can give me something that is bad that is socially responsible or something that is good that is socially irresponsible.

Edit: Nice to see you back, by the way…

 

[e_c]

If what we need is outside of his will, then game over, ain’t happening.

I’ve prayed a lot of times for things I need (and I know the difference between needs and wants!) and never got them.

That’s right. it is either God’s way or the highway.

Just because people want him to be a vending machine means he is a vending machine.

He clearly is not one. There is nothing I can give God that will convince him to provide anything I need.

Be thankful.

You are alive. You have electricity, and Internet access. You probably eat three times a day and can take a nice hot shower any time you like. You have clothes, I’m betting, people who care about you, probably have a car, a job, etc.

I’ve lived in the third world, friend, where there are few of those things, and the ones that are there are at some risk of being lost. Want to bathe? Wait a week, you can have a bucket of water. Want a job? Nope, tribalism rules, and even if it didn’t, you’re basically out of luck. Want to get out of there? Risk your life. And so on.

If God wants me to die in a ditch, then that’s the best thing for my own salvation and His greater glory. If He wants me stuck in a bad marriage, same thing. Anything. Finding happiness in that is the key to sanctity. His will is better than mine. Look to the Cross.

This too, gets at the original point… Which seems to have been jettisoned!

 

[PRmerger]

Well, if I agreed with that then someone might say that genocide is better for society and that wouldn’t be socially responsible.

Of course it’s socially responsible. To the society that’s doing the killing. That’s what they are obligated to do, right, since that’s what their society has discerned is good for their society?

 

[Solmyr]

Be thankful.

You are alive. You have electricity, and Internet access. You probably eat three times a day and can take a nice hot shower any time you like. You have clothes, I’m betting, people who care about you, probably have a car, a job, etc.

I’ve lived in the third world, friend, where there are few of those things, and the ones that are there are at some risk of being lost. Want to bathe? Wait a week, you can have a bucket of water. Want a job? Nope, tribalism rules, and even if it didn’t, you’re basically out of luck. Want to get out of there? Risk your life. And so on.

If God wants me to die in a ditch, then that’s the best thing for my own salvation and His greater glory. If He wants me stuck in a bad marriage, same thing. Anything. Finding happiness in that is the key to sanctity. His will is better than mine. Look to the Cross.

This too, gets at the original point… Which seems to have been jettisoned!

Let’s recall the Dear Abby’s Thanksgiving prayer:
How’s your health? Not so good? Well, thank God you’ve lived this long. A lot of people haven’t. You’re hurting? Thousands – maybe millions – are hurting even more. (Have you ever visited a veterans hospital? Or a rehabilitation clinic for crippled children?)

If you awakened this morning and were able to hear the birds sing, use your vocal cords to utter human sounds, walk to the breakfast table on two good legs, and read the newspaper with two good eyes, praise the Lord! A lot of people couldn’t.

How’s your pocketbook? Thin? Well, most of the world is a lot poorer. No pensions. No welfare. No food stamps. No Social Security. In fact, one-third of the people in the world will go to bed hungry tonight.

Are you lonely? The way to have a friend is to be one. If nobody calls you, pick up the phone and call someone.

Are you concerned about your country’s future? Hooray! Our system has been saved by such concern. Your country may not be a rose garden, but neither is it a patch of weeds.

Freedom rings! Look and listen. You can still worship at the church of your choice, cast a secret ballot, and even criticize your government without fearing a knock on the head or a knock on the door at midnight. And if you want to live under a different system, you are free to go. There are no walls or fences – nothing to keep you here.
Summary:No matter how bad things are, they could be worse. So be grateful that the “loving” God did not pile more misery and hardship upon you. After all our suffering would enhance his “greater glory” even further. But he exercised self-restraint and withheld some of the pain and misery, and settled for “lesser glory”.
The condensed version: “The beatings will continue until the morale improves”.

 

[PRmerger]

Let’s recall the Dear Abby’s Thanksgiving prayer:
How’s your health? Not so good? Well, thank God you’ve lived this long. A lot of people haven’t. You’re hurting? Thousands – maybe millions – are hurting even more. (Have you ever visited a veterans hospital? Or a rehabilitation clinic for crippled children?)

If you awakened this morning and were able to hear the birds sing, use your vocal cords to utter human sounds, walk to the breakfast table on two good legs, and read the newspaper with two good eyes, praise the Lord! A lot of people couldn’t.

How’s your pocketbook? Thin? Well, most of the world is a lot poorer. No pensions. No welfare. No food stamps. No Social Security. In fact, one-third of the people in the world will go to bed hungry tonight.

Are you lonely? The way to have a friend is to be one. If nobody calls you, pick up the phone and call someone.

Are you concerned about your country’s future? Hooray! Our system has been saved by such concern. Your country may not be a rose garden, but neither is it a patch of weeds.

Freedom rings! Look and listen. You can still worship at the church of your choice, cast a secret ballot, and even criticize your government without fearing a knock on the head or a knock on the door at midnight. And if you want to live under a different system, you are free to go. There are no walls or fences – nothing to keep you here.
Summary:No matter how bad things are, they could be worse. So be grateful that the “loving” God did not pile more misery and hardship upon you. After all our suffering would enhance his “greater glory” even further. But he exercised self-restraint and withheld some of the pain and misery, and settled for “lesser glory”.
The condensed version: “The beatings will continue until the morale improves”.

And yet…there’s still the atheistic problem: you have no answer to why these beatings occur.

You simply have to tell your child who asks, “Daddy, why is that man dragging that woman through the house by her hair? Why is he so mean?” “And what if no one ever sees him do it? Does this mean that he gets away with this? There’s no such thing as justice in this world”?..

…“Son, it just is the way it is. Sorry about that.”

 

[e_c]

The human nature of Christ agonizes on the Cross, while the Divine nature of Christ exalts. Welcome to the mystery. Each is tested in accord with his ability and Providence. It’s a waste of time to investigate the details. This is also a function of understanding radical primacy.

Likewise, the cause is always greater than the effect. Creation can never be as good or as perfect as the Creator. This too is relevant to the original topic.

I understand that I sound comical when I keep saying that, but there is a reason this stuff is addressed straight away in the Summa… The rest of theology doesn’t work without getting these things right.

 

[BobCatholic]

So. according to your beliefs…we are creatures who are totally controlled by the creator?

We’re not puppets. And neither is God.

If I ask for something I need, that is outside of God’s will, he will say no. Game over. His way or the highway.

Even if I really, really, really, really, really, really, really need it. God knows better.

Yes, this is a harsh belief, and I don’t like it, but I have no choice. I’m a speck of dust, and he’s the boss.

 

[BobCatholic]

Be thankful.

I’m not grateful for suffering. I am not a masochist, even though that is what God expects us to be.

 

[BobCatholic]

But people follow the words of Jesus, who said: “Whatever you ask in my name will be fulfilled, because I will go to the father”.

They forgot the catch.

“Not my will but your will be done, Father” (Garden of Gethsamane, remember?)

Oops. It is subject to God’s will, and if it is outside of the will of God, game over. Even if I really, really, really, really, really need it.

 

[Solmyr]

Welcome to the mystery.

Sorry, I am only interested in mysteries written by Agatha Christie et al. They are all rational and have a solution. To declare a logically incoherent and even contradictory state of affairs to be a “mystery” is not an argument.

Likewise, the cause is always greater than the effect.

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the message was lost.
For want of a message the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.
So much for the cause always greater than the effect.

I understand that I sound comical when I keep saying that, but there is a reason this stuff is addressed straight away in the Summa… The rest of theology doesn’t work without getting these things right.

No, you don’t sound “comical”, only irrational.

 

[Solmyr]

And yet…there’s still the atheistic problem: you have no answer to why these beatings occur.

Sure I have the answer: because there is no God, or if there is one, he does not care. And the lack of some other answer is not a “problem”.

 

[Lucretius]

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the message was lost.
For want of a message the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.
So much for the cause always greater than the effect.

He means that the cause gives the effect what it all ready has, either in the same way, or virtually.

An example of the cause having the same thing is the sun heating my drink: the sun has heat that it gives to the ice water.

An example of the cause having the thing virtually is the knife having the power to cut, even if it isn’t cut itself.

This explanation is straight from here: thomism.wordpress.com/2013/07/28/the-axiom-of-perfections-pre-existing-in-agent-causes/

Christi pax,

Lucretius

 

[oldcelt]

We’re not puppets. And neither is God.

If I ask for something I need, that is outside of God’s will, he will say no. Game over. His way or the highway.

Even if I really, really, really, really, really, really, really need it. God knows better.

Yes, this is a harsh belief, and I don’t like it, but I have no choice. I’m a speck of dust, and he’s the boss.

We’re together on the speck of dust:thumbsup:

John

 

[PRmerger]

Sure I have the answer: because there is no God, or if there is one, he does not care. And the lack of some other answer is not a “problem”.

Oh, that is indeed a big problem for you and your questioning child.

:sad_yes:

 

[Lucretius]

We’re together on the speck of dust:thumbsup:

John

And what a little arrogant speck of dust we are, compared to angels and God.

Of course, even specks can do great things with Providence.

Christi pax,

Lucretius

 

[oldcelt]

St. Maria Goretti was a child who died rather horribly…yet I don’t think you would see her death…the evils that she experienced…as an example of the kind of evil the AFE requires. Neither do you see the unjust torture of Jesus as an example of this kind of evil…in fact, it seems almost laughable to us Christ’s suffering as a definite proof that there isn’t a God…hahahagiggle…so how can you claim that horrid deaths in themselves are evils that cannot be order to good, that is, those evils we call gratuitous evils?

What if you explain to a twelve year old, who was raped and tortured, that her suffering is the reason you stopped going to church, and she responds by telling you to stop being naughty and go to confession? What would you do? Could your argument from evil still use her suffering as justification?

Christi pax,

Lucretius

I would explain to the young lady that, in my view, god had nothing to do with her suffering one way or the other. The horrid actions of the human who harmed her were a consequence of a mind that believes that it should have all the power. If she wished to continue to believe in a benevolent supernatural power, I would not contest that with someone of that age.
However, I would continue to hold that actions such as her rape and torture, cancer in infants, mass murder…and so on, are strong evidence for a non-interventionist deity…a creator…not a manager. Basically, Deism believes in a deity without all the omnis…because that is what we observe.

Be well,

John