God is not a...

[Bradski]

I’m not an apostle of Zeitoun, it was one example. I happen to buy it, but it is not foundational. Disprove Zeitoun, I will sigh and shrug. The Resurrection, on the other hand…

Despite all the reported millions of eye witnesses (yes ‘millions’) including heads of state and members of the Coptic church, all those Kodak moments and months of opportunity for concrete evidence it can indeed be discounted. So you probably think it’s best to back off a little there. Don’t want to appear to support something that can be so easily ridiculed. Sigh and shrug. Plenty more than that one can claim. Hell, there’s thousands of them. Can’t all be wrong! Or at least, and much more importantly, can’t all be disproved.

And that’s the point about second hand reports of a few people who might have seen something two thousand years ago written decades after the event. You can’t disprove that! So therefore it must be true…

The logic hurts my head.

 

[Lucretius]

And that’s the point about second hand reports of a few people who might have seen something two thousand years ago written decades after the event. You can’t disprove that! So therefore it must be true…

The logic hurts my head.

And with that, you’ve proven most of history bunk too!

The reason people didn’t write the Gospels down right away was because the Apostles and other eyewitnesses were still alive. The Jews prefered oral traditions overall (specifically those “recorded” in rituals and actions) and the Greeks prefered to go straight to eyewitnesses instead. However, as the eyewitnesses were dying out, they decided to record their Testimonies. But even so, the traditions of the original witnesses of Jesus were passed on to today. And unlike other traditions, we have a paper trail to cross examine in order to better protect the tradition from corruption.

Quite honestly, the New Testement might be some of the best historical autobiographies, in that they were written during the life of the eyewitnesses. Most of history doesn’t work like that.

Furthermore, did you ever think that maybe there are a lot of Arab and Egyptian sources regarding the miracles, and not a lot have yet been translated to English or posted on the internet, since the internet didn’t exist even in first world countries in 1950. In fact, most eyewitnesses of the event still alive probably can’t use a computer, can’t write English, and can’t even afford to do both!

Christi pax,

Lucretius

 

[Bradski]

And with that, you’ve proven most of history bunk too!

The question is not whether something happened or not. It is why that most people (including the Vatican) will not grant one iota of truth to the claim that Mary regularly paraded around on a rooftop in recent times despite there being millions (again, yes, millions) of reported eye witnesses and pictures yet will demand that we accept second had info from a handful of people two millennia ago. Do you not see the monstrous double standards?

In fact, most eyewitnesses of the event still alive probably can’t use a computer, can’t write English, and can’t even afford to do both!

Isn’t it strange that I can find reports of the resurrection on-line and no-one then had access to a computer. How is that possible!

 

[e_c]

Despite all the reported millions of eye witnesses (yes ‘millions’) including heads of state and members of the Coptic church, all those Kodak moments and months of opportunity for concrete evidence it can indeed be discounted. So you probably think it’s best to back off a little there. Don’t want to appear to support something that can be so easily ridiculed. Sigh and shrug. Plenty more than that one can claim. Hell, there’s thousands of them. Can’t all be wrong! Or at least, and much more importantly, can’t all be disproved.

And that’s the point about second hand reports of a few people who might have seen something two thousand years ago written decades after the event. You can’t disprove that! So therefore it must be true…

The logic hurts my head.

It hurt Paul’s head too, when it got cut off for testifying about these “rumors.”

 

[PRmerger]

Like the idle policemen who observe, but do not interrupt the torture and rape of a kidnapped teenage girl.

No.

Like the father who takes his daughter to be tortured by nurse.

 

[PRmerger]

The question is not whether something happened or not. It is why that most people (including the Vatican) will not grant one iota of truth to the claim that Mary regularly paraded around on a rooftop in recent times despite there being millions (again, yes, millions) of reported eye witnesses and pictures yet will demand that we accept second had info from a handful of people two millennia ago. Do you not see the monstrous double standards?

Aren’t you accepting on faith that millions have reported seeing this?

What evidence do you have that it’s millions?

 

[Lucretius]

Aren’t you accepting on faith that millions have reported seeing this?

What evidence do you have that it’s millions?

What’s so funny about this position is that scientists pride themselves on consensus, which is also just faith in millions…of course Science™ is different…

Christi pax,

Lucretius

 

[Bradski]

Aren’t you accepting on faith that millions have reported seeing this?

What evidence do you have that it’s millions?

That was millions of reported eye witnesses (that is, it has been reported that millions saw it) as opposed to the reports of millions.

People who believe that Mary took regular strolls on the rooftop also say that there were millions of eyewitnesses. Are you saying that I shouldn’t trust what they say?

 

[Lucretius]

That was millions of reported eye witnesses (that is, it has been reported that millions saw it) as opposed to the reports of millions.

People who believe that Mary took regular strolls on the rooftop also say that there were millions of eyewitnesses. Are you saying that I shouldn’t trust what they say?

At this point, I think both sides need to start citing sources. I get the feeling everyone is just saying whatever they want to make their position more plausible

Christi pax,

Lucretius

 

[PRmerger]

That was millions of reported eye witnesses (that is, it has been reported that millions saw it) as opposed to the reports of millions.

You’re just accepting this report…

on faith.

Have you seen any evidence that there are millions, luv?

I’m pretty sure you haven’t done a bit o’ research on this.

You simply accepted someone else’s word…

on faith…

that this is true.

(NB: I am not talking about the apparition being true. I am talking about your acceptance that millions of folks have said that they saw this).

 

[PRmerger]

At this point, I think both sides need to start citing sources.

And it should be 4 independent sources who actually witnessed these millions.

 

[Bradski]

I’m pretty sure you haven’t done a bit o’ research on this.

You simply accepted someone else’s word…

Is the Coptic Church not to be trusted?

The apparitions lasted from only a few minutes up to several hours and were sometimes accompanied by luminous heavenly bodies shaped like doves and moving at high speeds. The apparitions were seen by millions of Egyptians and foreigners. Among the witnesses were Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants, Moslems, Jews and non-religious people from all walks of life. zeitun-eg.org/zeitoun1.htm

There apparitions, often lasting throughout the night, were photographed, televised, witnessed by millions, written about in the internationalsecular and religious press and seen by both religious and political dignitaries such as Abdul Nasser…

…the Coptic Orthodox Church officially confirmed the apparitions after thorough investigation. marypages.com/ZeitoenEng.htm

The numbers of those who have witnessed these events are estimated to be in the millions, and unlike the other great Marian apparitions, these visions belong to a category known in Catholic theology as visio sensibilis - i.e. they are an actual physical manifestation…Cardinal Bertone, the former secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and current Vatican secretary of state, lists the apparitions at Zeitoun as one of the very few modern apparitions officially recognized as authentic by the Catholic Church. unveilingtheapocalypse.blogspot.com.au/2011/08/our-lady-of-egypt.html

An estimated one million people were able to witness the numerous Marian apparitions that occurred during a two year stretch ending in 1971 A.D. the-american-catholic.com/2009/11/24/zeitoun-marian-apparition-50-year-anniversary/

Now, the question is, does anyone believe any of this? E_c does. I mean, all those witnesses. All those pictures. He can’t be that gullible to simply believe what he reads on a few badly assembled web pages. And Lucretius is a big supporter as well. Can so many people be wrong?

The thing is PR, we know that this is just a story that people have exaggerated beyond anything a reasonable person could accept. We know this despite the reports of millions and the claims by the Coptic church and the piccies and the videos and the home made web pages.

Millions? Give me a break. Regular sightings? Yeah, sure. Luminescent doves? Riiiight. You are naturally correct to inject a note of skepticism. Where is the PROOF! Well, there isn’t any real proof, is there. Just reports of a few people simply seeing something they expected (and wanted) to see. And then everyone else believing what they are told.

Happens all the time.

 

[PRmerger]

Is the Coptic Church not to be trusted?

Well, I trust them. Pretty much.

But it’s kind of peculiar that you do, though.

And it’s curious that you, given all you’ve posted here about atheism and evidence and faith and all that…would accept, without really any investigation whatsoever…this “millions” thing on fact.

It’s just a little…odd…to see this inconsistency.

It’s a kind of double standard, you know?

 

[Bradski]

Well, I trust them. Pretty much.

But it’s kind of peculiar that you do, though.

And it’s curious that you, given all you’ve posted here about atheism and evidence and faith and all that…would accept, without really any investigation whatsoever…this “millions” thing on fact.

It’s just a little…odd…to see this inconsistency.

It’s a kind of double standard, you know?

I’m simply reporting what has been said. As I posted above, I don’t believe any of it for a minute. I’m giving you the reasons why others do. Even e_c and Lucretius have both said that they believe it yet both admit to knowing next to nothing about it.

And, as you say, ‘without really any investigation whatsoever’. They just accept what has been written.

 

[Lucretius]

I’m simply reporting what has been said. As I posted above, I don’t believe any of it for a minute. I’m giving you the reasons why others do. Even e_c and Lucretius have both said that they believe it yet both admit to knowing next to nothing about it.

And, as you say, ‘without really any investigation whatsoever’. They just accept what has been written.

I don’t know if I said I believe it…but I always take peoples experiences at face value. Quite honestly, for half this thread I thought we were talking about Fatima, so I’m rather confused about the sequence of events

Christi pax,

Lucretius

 

[PRmerger]

I’m simply reporting what has been said. As I posted above, I don’t believe any of it for a minute.

Understood.

Millions of folks haven’t reported seeing Mary in Zeitoun.

We are agreed, then?

 

[Solmyr]

Like the father who takes his daughter to be tortured by nurse.

I see some “minor”, though not insignificant difference between an inoculation and a gang rape combined with a blowtorch. But, as usual, we are not equal, and your mileage may vary. For you there might not be a relevant difference.

Of course you were “reluctant” to comment on the problem that there is a qualitative difference between a human father and God. To use the human father as a “placeholder” for God is unacceptably incorrect. God has this pesky “omnipotence”, he can do whatever he wants to do… with the possible exception of creating married bachelors… though even that is questionable by some believers.

 

[PRmerger]

I see some “minor”, though not insignificant difference between an inoculation and a gang rape combined with a blowtorch.

It’s way closer than the infinite difference between a father and God the Father.

#truestory

 

[Solmyr]

It’s way closer than the infinite difference between a father and God the Father.

So you agree that your metaphor is incorrect. That is more than I would have hoped for.

 

[Lucretius]

So you agree that your metaphor is incorrect. That is more than I would have hoped for.

It’s incorrect, equivocally, but it is, in a sense, correct when understood analogically.

Christi pax,

Lucretius