God is not all good

[SanctusEnigma40]

incense:

This is not an intellectual explanation, but only my own humble experience.

Thanks for your honesty, and not pretending that what you are offering is an intellectual explanation. I appreciate that, I lieu of a good answer, if all you can offer is your honest experience, i am more than willing to meditate and ponder on it. I am honored.

incense:

Because He loves me, and…

I also used to think that He loved me, but this is not so much an issue for me anymore. The big question is: Can I love him back? Am I able to find myself in a position to honestly love Him Back. When I read of God atrocities in the Old Testament, specially in all the cases where He kills babies, and commands to slaughter babies, or put them to the sword or spear, I do not find myself able to Love Him back. I can be terrified at him, but not feel love towards, Him. I can be thankfull for giving me Life, and at the same time being unable to give him worship.! I hope that you are able to comprehend that.
inscense:

And yet, He makes me so angry that He doesn’t spell it out clearly what it is He expects us to know or learn.

I know exactly the feeling! I have been there and done that! I have felt exactly the same way, and I can fully relate! Thanks for sharing with me and for your honesty!

incense:

But you’ll get it, if you keep seeking.

I intend to keep searching until the day I die!

incense:

IF you sincerely seek with your heart, He WILL answer.

I hope you are right! I truly hope so!

incense:

So is it that you think God is mean sometimes, or that He’s not wimpy all the time?

It is not so important what I think. The problem is that when I read the Old Testament, God is clearly portrayed or depicted as performing unspeakable acts of cruelty, not only to the enemies of his chosen people, but to His very own people as well. He did not only kill Korah, but His babies and children too, and send them alive to sheol, or hell, or whatever you want to make of it.
For not good reason, He kill two of Aaron’s sons. People beg for water: Smite. People beg for better food: Smite. Murmur in the Camp: Smite and Fiery Sepents, People rebel: HE burn them to death, Smite, and Go alive to seol, People disobey: Stone them to death, Smite and Kill. People want Meat: Smite again with a plague, by the thousands!

It is not that He is mean sometimes that disturbs me. Is that He is Extremely Cruel, Vindictive, Merciless, and Ruthless most of the time in the Old testament! And this is the same guy that is suppose to be a loving heavenly father? A kind, Patient, Long-suffering, Merciful, Slow to Anger kind of god?? THe whole thing doesn’t add up!

incense:

Did He cause the death of those babies, or did the parents by their evil actions?

incense,incense,incense…That is my whole point! even if the parents where pretty eveil, and deserve to die, their babies did not! What wrong did they ever do to deserve being killed by God? If the parents did wrong, and deserve to die, then just kill the parents, but why to kill the babies? Why being so freaking Ruthless???

incense:

Only their human bodies died, what about their souls? If the children could not grow up to do evil actions, were they better off in eternity? It’s sobering to think that my actions could influence my children so that their souls die along with their bodies. I would prefer they (and me) die now then live a prosperous life and go to hell.

Then why don’t you apply the same logic before you prepare to go to the next abortion clinic to protest the killing of babies?

By that very logic of your, I can reprimend you for protesting the killings of babies in the abortion clinics. Hey, let them die! at least they do not grow to be evil, and can be sent directly with a free pass to heaven!

Abortion Clinics must then be doing the very merciful work of God, since they are preventing those little souls to grow up and become sining humans, and end up in Hell.

Hell, by your own argument, The Cathiolic Church should be heavily involved in facilitaing and heavily marketing the use of Abortion clinics all over the world!

It will be like a great factory of sending billions of little souls directly to heaven, since it is a good thing that they do not have the opportunity to grow and their souls to be contaminated in this evil world, and then have the posibility of ending up in Hell!

So by your own logic, Abortion is the most Good, Holy, Merciful, and Wholesome thing to do to another human being!

Please feel free to explain more if you do not agree! But refrain to use double standards!

If is killing babies is not a good thing for a woman, then it is not a good thing for God!

I do not want to hear about double standads, because I believe is very hypocritical!

and don’t tell me that is OK for God to do it because “Might does not make right”.

I challenge you to come up with a better logic, or explanation for this!

 

[ready]

Here you go again ready! Another Childish attitude. You do not know how to respond, so you play the Martyr Card. I am being persecuted… Poor me…!
What are you ready, like 5 years old? Don’t you have to be certain age to post in here?

You do not need to post if you do not have a good argument. You can read and learn. BY all means, if you, or anyone else reading this can come up with better arguments, I will be happy to think about them and give my best honest response.

I honestly am not sure if you are being childish on purpose or are really serious about the whole thing. It is hard for me to believe that your whole arguemts amount to plain circular arguemt, Begging the question argument, and a silly appeal to persecution and martyr syndrome.

That’s it!

Other that you have not given me anything decent to reply to!

If you want, just give the opportunity to other people who might want to seriously contribute to this discussion forum.

Maybe this might be a joke for you, but I am seriously trying to get to the bottom of things here.

Seriously ready, stop wasting my time, or come up with something better.

And please, I do not want to hear from you another reply saying thanks for my persecution, and saying that I am contributing for your reward to increase in heaven.

All of that is beyond the point that we are trying to discuss in this forum. Is that what you say every time you run out of arguments?

I truly pity you! I am not sure if to laugh, or be seriously concerned about you.

What are you talking about? I REJOICE because I am insulted for the sake of Christ; I DO NOT consider myself unfortunate or a poor thing because I have to suffer to defend my Lord and King. But to help you I will expound on my view.

It is true, many children have died because our Lord has commanded groups of people to be eliminated because of their abominable ways. But consider the possibility that our Lord is actually sparing those children from a much worse fate - eternal perdition. Those same innocent babies will be rewarded in the next life - like all the innocents. Our God is just…despite your views. Stop being so myopic. This life and suffering or dying in this life is NOTHING. All that is important is what eternity holds for the little babies and for all of us. I pray you have a real experience with Christ and come to see him for who he truly is: Love and Truth - not Evil and Unfair.

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

I couldn’t care less if you think I that I am here to learn or not. Couldn’t care less if you think my motives are honest and sincere or not. I know exactly what I am doing and why am doing it. If God exist, He knows what my motives are, and that is enough for me. I do not appreciate your condescending tone on me. I am also conversing about this things with many other people to get a good answer too. I was Christian for many many years, and very devoted one. But I lost my faith because of the Bible. I am sick and tire of people who use to know me as a sincere devoted believer, to know say that maybe i was not really a sincere believer in the first place, since I have now left the faith. They just do not know what they are talking about.
In the same way you do not what you are talking about, and pontificating and/or speaking to me in a condescending or judging tone is not going to cut it. Questioning my motives is not going to do it either. I will reiterate: I couldn’t care less what you think about my motives for doing this, or your judgement on me, or your attitude towards someone who thinks like me.

Here you go again with your pontification, judgement, and condescending tone. Who is out of hand rejecting things anyway? Since when asking for a good reason to believe something is “Out of hand rejection”?

Your indigence is unwarranted as you are reading into my words something that isn’t there.

But I lost my faith because of the Bible.

It may help that for Catholics, the rule of faith is the Church, the Pillar and Ground of the Truth (1 Timothy 3:15) and is the authority in interpreting the Bible.

I want for someone to come up with a good and reasonable argument or a good answer as to : What sense of Justice is God fulfilling in killing the innocent?

if you were to read atheist’s websites, you will often find complaints that the God of the Bible arbitrarily ordered the destruction of entire cities, such as Jericho, just to allow the Jews to have a homeland in the middle east. How could a loving god command the destruction of all those “innocent” people? The argument sounds good, but it is utterly false. The unstated assumption is that the people who God ordered destroyed were morally equivalent to the Jews, who replaced them. However, this is what the Bible says about the people who were destroyed:

** "it is not for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you are going to possess their land, but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the lord your God is driving them out before you, in order to confirm the oath which the lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. (Deuteronomy 9:5)**

godandscience.org/apologetics/killergod.html

 

[ready]

For anyone who does not believe God is all good, you should go to jimmyakin.org and go to the the archives (Feb. 1, 2007). Jimmy Akin submits an article called “Hard Sayings of the Old Testament”. He’ll definitely help you see things straight.

In Oct. I went through a serious dark night of faith and I saw a movie called “God on Trial” (you can see it on You-Tube). In it one of the characters argues that God is not good. I had just gone through torture similar to what I found the Jews in the film went through; and even though the character’s argument was not accurate, it did leave me feeling the same way he did - that God is not good. . After constantly seeking God and making a willed decision to believe that Jesus died for me (upon a priest-friend’s urging), while assenting to the fact that He was a self-sacrificial God of Love (understanding this in my life) and seeing Jesus’ life in the life of Padre Pio, I still continued to practice my faith. I was born a Catholic and was bound to my faith whether I liked it or not. I eventually was delivered from the dark night and saw God again for who he had truly always been - a mysterious God who I will never fully understand but who does everything that I may draw even closer to Him than the previous day and be even more holy than before. Everything God does is for our good. He just wants us to see that He is everything and we should depend solely on Him. He will reward us in Heaven for everything evil or unfair we undergo in this life. He is good! We just don’t see this or understand this always because of our puny, little minds. Who can grasp God and his intelligence, who is very perfection itself, never changing but always abounding with love - whether we accept this or not?

 

[incense]

Deprive those children of their chance of earning their particular reward in heaven? No thanks. God has that right, not me.

It’s a popular concept now, no winners or losers just everyone safely at the bottom. But there are winners and losers, and our actions do matter. I certainly dont’ want them to sometimes, but they do.

I know that when my children were babies, if I didn’t feed them, they went hungry. If I didn’t bathe them, they went dirty. God didn’t ususally step in and feed them or bathe them. He had put me there in that position to do those things.

If I poison their hearts, evil grows. When we pray together, goodness grows. It matters what I do. So do I tell God He’s mean when I sow evil and my children reap it? I have no standing, I chose my actions. Could my children? Probably. They could say, “It was the woman you placed here on Earth with me who told me to do this, it’s her fault. If you would have given me someone good, then I would be good too.” I don’t know how God answers them, how He judges them.

I believe it was/is with unmeasurable mercy, because that’s the God I know. He can see their heart and know how they have responded to the goodness they were exposed to, or somehow let them do something for their salvation in that split moment of judgement.

What makes you think He answered them meanly? I believe you exagerated when you said your religion never worked for you. But if it’s true, if you think you’re ticked now, just wait until you find out what you’ve been missing, then you’re going to be really ticked at everyone who taught you religion but did not teach you to know God. (But you’ll get over it.)

What did Jesus do those three days He was with the dead? Hmm, I’ve wondered briefly about why He would have to preach to the dead. I’ll have to look and see if the Church has said anything. I didnt’ have the questions you do. Primarily, I wondered why there were no miracles since Jesus said there would be.

 

[Seraphim25]

God bless you in all that you do! I pray for you that the truth will set you free as it did me fellow brother. Upon oberserving your frustration of a God that you deem as “evil” we have to strip the good nature or our good nature out of the mix and see from God’s perspective. God created us to have free will therefore, we had to excerise that will with a choice. Wether to trust God in whom created us to love us so that we might love him back or to experience a life without God and establish our own set of rules here on Earth? And how are those rules that our Governments establish to keep us in check working out for you? As for me the world sets its rules as it is a commodity; got the money is a free pass out of jail card unless you murder or fantastically defraud a lot people.
Gods kingdom is not this way nor his God this love me or else. God dosen’t choose us to go to hell, rather, it is us who choose to go their. God dosen’t want us to go to hell and therefore, gave the Isrealities the law to follow. With the Law came the promises the glory of a royal nation set apart from all others. But disobedience of the law came in and Gods punishments must correct their attitudes esspecially with the waiting of the Messiah. With the many transgressions of the law became acquital to all so that all might have being and be made back in the image of God has God intended it from the begenning through Christ Jesus.
Therefore, I pray in your quest to the truth and allow God the one who created the heavens and Earth in whom you once knew and give him your questions. I garauntee you you won’t be disappointed. God will always answer you…you must first let go or yourself and quite your mind and listen to your heart. For that is where the Kingdom of God is…THe kingdom of God is in every single christian believer (the temple of the Most High).
God bless and may the Lord of peace give his peace but not as the world gives peace but as God himself gives peace that is so unimaginable!

 

[SanctusEnigma40]

ready:

But consider the possibility that our Lord is actually sparing those children from a much worse fate - eternal perdition. Those same innocent babies will be rewarded in the next life - like all the innocents.

If God was sparing those children from eternal perdition by murdering them, then Abortion Clinics are doing the work of God and should be heavily funded by the Catholic Church instead of picketed.

ready:

because I am insulted for the sake of Christ

it is very convenient that whenever you run out of good arguments to defend your position you play your card of persecution and being insulted and suffering for the sake of Christ! keep enjoying your increase of imaginary reward. I am here busy trying to figure stuff out. when you have some good argument, please let me hear about it. Otherwise, please refrain from loosing my time.
Earnest Bunbury:

It may help that for Catholics, the rule of faith is the Church, the Pillar and Ground of the Truth (1 Timothy 3:15) and is the authority in interpreting the Bible.

Not really, I was never anticatholic, and I was visiting often the catholic church with my wif (Catholic too), before becoming atheist. I now very well what the Catholic teaches concerning the authority not resting with the scripture alone (sola scriptura) but also with the tradition handed down from christ, tohrough the apostles, to the modern church leadersoral tradition), and the magisterium of the church.

As a fact I like this much better than the endless confusion of the protestant church and its endless denominations.

I was born and raised catholic and was catholic myself many years, and was even confirmed in the fith and everything.

You do not need to refer me to this, since I know already about it. THe whole thing however is besides the point.

The Catholic church believes that the scripture is one of the pillars in which all its doctines are built upon.

So this is not going to get you off the hook!

 

[ready]

If God was sparing those children from eternal perdition by murdering them, then Abortion Clinics are doing the work of God and should be heavily funded by the Catholic Church instead of picketed.

it is very convenient that whenever you run out of good arguments to defend your position you play your card of persecution and being insulted and suffering for the sake of Christ! keep enjoying your increase of imaginary reward. I am here busy trying to figure stuff out. when you have some good argument, please let me hear about it. Otherwise, please refrain from loosing my time.

Not really, I was never anticatholic, and I was visiting often the catholic church with my wif (Catholic too), before becoming atheist. I now very well what the Catholic teaches concerning the authority not resting with the scripture alone (sola scriptura) but also with the tradition handed down from christ, tohrough the apostles, to the modern church leadersoral tradition), and the magisterium of the church.

As a fact I like this much better than the endless confusion of the protestant church and its endless denominations.

I was born and raised catholic and was catholic myself many years, and was even confirmed in the fith and everything.

You do not need to refer me to this, since I know already about it. THe whole thing however is besides the point.

The Catholic church believes that the scripture is one of the pillars in which all its doctines are built upon.

So this is not going to get you off the hook!

NOBODY has the right to take life - only He who gave it: God. People who kill babies through abortion and contraception will have to deal with God and repent of their sin or they will die separated from Him eternally. (And I couldn’t get myself to read the rest of your post, as what I was able to see appeared to be more of your vain accusations.)

 

[SanctusEnigma40]

Hello

 

[SanctusEnigma40]

Hello

 

[SanctusEnigma40]

ready:

NOBODY has the right to take life - only He who gave it: God.

ready, this is called: pontification

Is not a real answer. You are just pontificating, since you are not even trying to give a good reason for it!

Answer the question and stop pontificating!

Why is it so freaking evil, and despicable, and morally wrong for a woman (on anyone else for that matter) to KILL a baby, but when God KILLS a BABY, is suddenly: Good, Comendable, Holy, Acceptable, Natural and Perfectly GOOD and MORAL!??

Why is it that Christians have such a Big Double Standard when it comes to morality when it is God doing the obvious Evil things described in the Old testament like:
KILLING FREAKING BABIES!

Why the double standard???

If it is evil and morally wrong for man or woman to Kill babies, then is equally EVIL, and MORALLY WRONG for GOD to do it too!

If anyone reading this post have a good answer for this, I really will appreciate to hear it.

Please refrain from the following:

1. Answers that have double Standards (One for God, and One for Humans)
2. Using Circular Logic: (Because the Bible says so, its not going to do it).
3. Pontificating: (Because it is Wrong!!.. etc…)
4. Playing the Martyr card, or the persecution card (like ready) when lacking a response with a good argument.

Special note for ready:

ready:

…to be more of your vain accusations

Please stop posting in this forum. You obviously not want to contribute anything positive here, and just want to make me loose my time by insulting me. calling my argumet “vain” and not producing anything to backup your claim that my argument is “vain” is not going to get you anywhere.
I believe that wasting somebody time on purpose is a sin. ask your priest. Time is the only resource that we can never get back, so every minute you make me loose, is a minute I can never recover.
The sin is even greater since I am honest in my quest, and according to your catholic views, If I was to die without having my question properly answered, I might end up most probably in Hell.
SO, since answering my question is very important for me, and my eternal soul is in the balance, you, making me loose my time on purpose, makes the whole deal a BIGGER SIN.!!

Please, I will ask you, and beg you for one more time to refrain to post in this forum is you do not have anything positive to contribute to this discussion.

If you are just looking for people to insult you, so you can have a greater “reward” in heaven, as you obviously rejoice in having all the time, may I suggest that you post in a Atheist Forum!

There you can probably receive harsh answers to your arguemts and claim all the “rewards” for persecution, and keep increasing your imaginary heavenly bank account in heaven!

Seriously ready, for the last time: I ask you not to make me loose my time anymore.

If you keep insisting to post nonsense, I will resort to just plainly ignoring you, as rude as it might sound.

I do not want to do it, but if you keep insisting I will do it!

Only post here is you have anything positive to contribute in this forum.

 

[SanctusEnigma40]

ready:

…No thanks. God has that right, not me.

Dear incense,

Your Argument is begging the question, since “God Having the right to Kill” is precisely what we are trying to find out (or figure out).

My Argument is precisely: How come is RIght, Holy, Acceptable, and Basically a good Thing for God to MURDER a baby?

How come a Woman, in doing the same thing is evil, despicable, Morally Wrong, and unacceptable, but when GOD MURDERS a baby, it is absolutely OK, Holy, Awesome, Commendable, Acceptable, and a GOOD thing!

Why the Double Standard of morality when it comes to God doing despicable things, like Murdering Babies, Burning People Alive, Commanding to Impale people (A very slow and torturous death), Wiping out entire ethnicities, Ethnic Cleansing, and other despicable acts.

WHy is God OK in doing all this despicable, Ruthless, and plain EVIL things???

 

[Angels_Unaware]

SanctusEnigma40,

Don’t get so mad. You’re right. The people giving you the argument that it’s ok to brutally destroy people as long as you’re God are mistaken in their notion of God.

I think there are couple of ways to look at the Old Testament. One is that it’s true, and that it does witness God, but it’s medium is human, and therefore reflects human brutality and stupidity. The other is that when the Old Testament says, “God told such and such to smote such and such” it is an improper personification of impersonal law, something more akin to Karma.

 

[incense]

Your Argument is begging the question, since “God Having the right to Kill” is precisely what we are trying to find out (or figure out).

I think it’s the innocent that God ordered murdered that you’re concerned about, correct? And since I believe that it must be an act of mercy or justice, then I must think about how it is merciful or just. And I’ll call it murder to reflect the seriousness of the action.

To die on Earth ends our time to prove ourselves to God or earn our crowns in Heaven. That is the purpose of life: to know, love and serve God and be happy with Him forever in Heaven. We naturally resist death, and seek life. Death feels repugnant and evil to us unless we are depressed or in physical agony. Although those who have had near death experiences or were given visions of Heaven do not feel fear of death. They know that true living comes after our time on earth.

If those innocents were murdered, were they condemned to hell? Not if they were innocents.

But was it mean to take away their chance to earn glory? God knew that they would only know and do evil because of what their parents and community were doing. They would have lead sinful, hurtful lives.

Would they be guilty of those sinful acts, since they wouldn’t have been taught any differently? Maybe not. So murdering them as babies or judging them mercifully after a lifetime of unknowing evil would amount to the same reward in heaven. Except, murdering them as babies would prevent them from performing those unknowing acts of evil. Which would be an extra act of mercy, so they don’t have to feel the regret of what they had done.

Plus it would stop more people from sinning, prevent unhappiness and wars, and allow other souls to achieve more glory.

Did Jesus search for them while with the dead for three days? Did He preach to them and since they were murdered before they were entrenched in evil, did they choose to follow Him to Heaven?

 

[Angels_Unaware]

I think it’s the innocent that God ordered murdered that you’re concerned about, correct? And since I believe that it must be an act of mercy or justice, then I must think about how it is merciful or just. And I’ll call it murder to reflect the seriousness of the action.

To die on Earth ends our time to prove ourselves to God or earn our crowns in Heaven. That is the purpose of life: to know, love and serve God and be happy with Him forever in Heaven. We naturally resist death, and seek life. Death feels repugnant and evil to us unless we are depressed or in physical agony. Although those who have had near death experiences or were given visions of Heaven do not feel fear of death. They know that true living comes after our time on earth.

If those innocents were murdered, were they condemned to hell? Not if they were innocents.

But was it mean to take away their chance to earn glory? God knew that they would only know and do evil because of what their parents and community were doing. They would have lead sinful, hurtful lives.

Would they be guilty of those sinful acts, since they wouldn’t have been taught any differently? Maybe not. So murdering them as babies or judging them mercifully after a lifetime of unknowing evil would amount to the same reward in heaven. Except, murdering them as babies would prevent them from performing those unknowing acts of evil. Which would be an extra act of mercy, so they don’t have to feel the regret of what they had done.

Plus it would stop more people from sinning, prevent unhappiness and wars, and allow other souls to achieve more glory.

Did Jesus search for them while with the dead for three days? Did He preach to them and since they were murdered before they were entrenched in evil, did they choose to follow Him to Heaven?

This is a pathetically inadequate argument. It fails completely. Why do you insist on defending something that cannot be defended? Is your faith that weak? This idea that God the Person in the Father ordered out of his mouth the murder of babies is as indefensible as arguing that 2+2=3.

First, the argument that it is better to die and be with God than to live is entirely contrary to the weight of all Scripture. Death is an enemy in the Bible.

Second, your argument would be that God actually decided that rather than to convert the innocent children being slaughtered, it was better that they die, and die brutally. And yet, since He is God, He could have chosen that they not be born, or that they would be adopted by the Israelites, so that His justice would be perfect, or any infinite number of solutions.

A God who decided to brutally murder children for the sake of rewarding his chosen people with land would not be a God worthy of worship. When this was defended to me by a Fundamentalist Protestant once, he said those children were evil and deserved to die.

The only way to resolve the problem is to see beyond a literal interpretation, and to leave the possibility open that this is beyond our ability to understand given the information available.

 

[SanctusEnigma40]

Angels Unaware:

This is a pathetically inadequate argument. It fails completely. Why do you insist on defending something that cannot be defended? Is your faith that weak? This idea that God the Person in the Father ordered out of his mouth the murder of babies is as indefensible as arguing that 2+2=3.

First, the argument that it is better to die and be with God than to live is entirely contrary to the weight of all Scripture. Death is an enemy in the Bible.

Second, your argument would be that God actually decided that rather than to convert the innocent children being slaughtered, it was better that they die, and die brutally. And yet, since He is God, He could have chosen that they not be born, or that they would be adopted by the Israelites, so that His justice would be perfect, or any infinite number of solutions.

A God who decided to brutally murder children for the sake of rewarding his chosen people with land would not be a God worthy of worship.

HOLY MOLLY!.. WOW!!!.. I am speechless!! I do not know what to say!
First honest answer I hear in this whloe forum since i started posting!

You have no idea how refreshing is to read this. I almost start crying!

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!

Ok, now tell me more about the way you interpret this whole mess about God murdering babies and all the rest of God atrocities. Because of your honest answer you got my full attention.

Please, will you so kind to benefit me with the way you interpret this verses. i am so tired of receiving the same old arguments that simply defend God by saying that what He did was JUST and GOOD! I want to scream! MY GOD!! Don’t you see is just plainly wrong!!!
Can anyone in their sane mind read this and say that what what God was doing here is mercifull and good??

Getting a Christian to admit that the atrocities described in the old testament are plainly wrong, is like pulling teeth!

Is like:

Me: Dude, read it, God is killing babies in this verse… can’t you see is wrong??
Christian: Yeah… but is OK! God is just in doing this.
Me: What??? How can you say that??What the…??? How in the World…???
Christian: God by definition is good, so anything that God do is good!!
Me: But dude…that makes no sense! What in the world???
Christian: Well, God knew this kids where going to end up in hell forever if they grow up, so he decided to butcher them so that their precious little souls go to heaven.
Me: So you mean to tell me that the people that have kill their own children (there have been a few on the news) and end up in jail were justified, because they say that they did not want to run the risk that they grow up and end up in hell, so their justification in doing this was that they where doing the most loving and merciful thing a parent can do.
Are you telling me this people are OK in what they did??
Christian: Ohhhh… Well… No…Actually what they did is wrong.
Me: how is this different from what God did in the Old testament??
Christian: Well God is justified in what He does because He is God, but the parent who did this commited an atrocities and deserve to be condemned!
Me: But they are doing the same that God did, and using the same motive, How come god is Good in doing this, and the Parents are Evil for doing the same thing??
Christian: Because God is God and is always justified in hat He does! Anything that God do is always good!

At this point I feel like wanting to start to pull the hairs from my head and scream!

So Mr Angel unaware, where have you been all along!
Your comments in here is like an oasis for me. I couldn’t have said it better.

Can you please share with me a little bit about the ways you interpret this verses so that they make sense, because so far, I find myself unable to buy the arguments put orth in this forum. They just do not add up in my mind.

I have heard all kinds of criticism everywhere i go, and faulty reasoning excuses, and plain wrong and lame excuses for God actions, but not a good explanation so far.

I am very, very interested in your views about this whole thing. I am tired of hearing lame arguments.

You have said so far that:
Angels Unaware:

One is that it’s true, and that it does witness God, but it’s medium is human, and therefore reflects human brutality and stupidity. The other is that when the Old Testament says, “God told such and such to smote such and such” it is an improper personification of impersonal law, something more akin to Karma.

Can you give me more details about this views. Also do you have a book or some article that you can point me to, or that I can read so i can learn more about this views??

Please, do talk a bit more about this ways of seeing the Old testament!

I will very much appreciate it!

Thanks so much, and keep in touch!!!

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Thanks for the compliment, but it’s Ms. Angels Unaware,

I’ll try to find some links for you and post again with a more in depth response tomorrow.

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

HOLY MOLLY!.. WOW!!!.. I am speechless!! I do not know what to say!
First honest answer I hear in this whole forum since i started posting!

It seems to me that the answer you seek is the answer you want, that God is not Good. Perhaps a humble search would precipitate a knowledge of God, a relationship, then one can know the reasons for people who died at God’s bequest. Your search as it stands now is disingenuous in that God is being judged by you and your standards. You seem very annoyed at this observation and have lashed out vociferously in previous posts but it is even more evident when you agree with those who agree with you but become incensed at reproof when those who know of God tell you that you are wrong in your presupposition that God isn’t in His Nature Goodness itself. The answer is that we don’t know the people God judged as worthy of death but I know myself and can say that I am too worthy of destruction. It is only God’s Goodness that keeps us in existence at all.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

First of all, in my opinion the only possible disingenuous manner of questioning these OT passages is to deny that they are problematic. They are, prima facie, problematic, and to impugn the motives of those who seek honest and coherent answers cannot possibly be anything other than a method of projecting the fear of acknowledging the truth of this. You are addressing the greatest objection that exists in this world to the acceptance of the idea of God, and that problem is the problem of evil and suffering, yet here you find that problem depicted in the personification of God’s will, which makes it an even more absurd problem.

There are three broad ways that people attempt to answer the problem of the Bible depicting the character and personality of God as murderous in the OT and merciful in the NT. The first is to appeal to God as authority, and to demote the internal witness of right and wrong that occurs in a rational person’s mind and heart when they see a command from God to dash infants skulls against walls as secondary to the supreme nature of God, which is unknowable and impossible to judge. This approach is the refutation of Euthyphro’s Dilemma, or the question of whether God is subject to his own moral law. The dilemma is that if God is truly supreme, then must he be subject to absolute right, and if He is, then is He truly God? The answer that is presented is that God is the creator of law and therefore not subject to it. This dilemma and the conclusion is just silly, in my opinion, and the problem comes from not understanding how to define God.

There is a Biblical basis from which to approach the problem this way. In the book of Job, which is widely believed to be the oldest book of the Bible, God is on trial for the innocent misfortunes of Job. In this book, we are given the principle that submission to God’s sovereignty and acceptance of tribulation is the correct response to misfortune. Yet, the trials of Job are clearly entirely distinct from the command of God to kill children in the OT. In the book of Job, the misfortunes suffered by the righteous servant are instigated by the Devil. God’s hand has simply been lifted from protection. Despite this clear difference in the origin of misfortune, some Christians appeal to this principle to explain the command of God to kill the enemies of Israel. They reference the opportunities for repentance that were given these enemies, and simply reason that we all are born evil and all deserve to have our brains dashed against stone as infants. These enemies of Israel had simply exceeded God’s patience.

This approach is inadequate, of course, but it is as far as the majority of Christian apologists will venture. It may be difficult for you to understand, but to those Christians, these passages are incidental to their faith, and of minor importance. The spiritual message of Christianity outshines the intellectual need to deal with these OT passages. This approach is often judged by atheists and agnostics as irrational, coercive, and anti-intellectual, but it is not always. It is more usually a difference in focus and perspective. Christians don’t behave as if it is moral to order the killing of children. They wouldn’t support a public policy of killing Muslim or pagan infants. They know, though they would not admit, that if they were to hear the voice of God tell them to kill a child that they could not obey it. Their focus is on the salvation message in Christianity, which is still there, and still important, and they simply do not address the problematic pieces of sacred Scripture.

There are some interesting elaborations of this theory that some take. The Jimmy Akin article you were referred to attempts to argue that it was part of the greater good that temporary misfortunes such as these would happen. There is the position that these murders were part of God’s plan for the salvation of the world. However, I still find those arguments terribly inadequate, because they ignore the real problem in these passages. The real problem is that we have God, in the form of anthromorphic personality, willing innocent children destroyed. Is it truly reasonable to imagine that these children when they were destroyed, willingly by God in the flesh would be in spirit welcomed by God with open arms? Some think so, and draw an analogy between the crucifixion of the flesh as a path to eternal life in the spirit. I think there are better ways to deal with the problem, though.

The second most common approach to this problem that people take is to reject the OT God outright, and reason that if the OT is true, and the Creator has ordered the slaughtering of children, He cannot be a God worthy of worship. If a reasonable person has spiritual desire to know and understand God, then this is all that is necessary. There are no more questions, and no more debate. People who fully accept this position are not troubled by discarding God, and usually don’t come to Catholic forums to angrily debate the existence of such a God.

The third way to approach this problem is what I will call a spiritual approach, but it is a little more than just that, because accepting God’s sovereignty on the basis of authority and not concerning oneself with the inscrutability of the picture of God we see in the OT is also a spiritual approach. The spirituality represented by that position is acquiescence. It is a profound spiritual accomplishment to accept God and to accept life, suffering, and misfortunes as emanating from perfect goodness and light. So I don’t wish to discount the spiritual dimension that most Christians take to the acceptance of these passages, because it is there.(Continued)

 

[Angels_Unaware]

(Continued from previous post)

The third approach, however, is one that lifts itself out of boundaries in thinking to a certain extent, because it is dependent on recognizing that the God of the OT is accessible to human beings, and is testified by human beings in Scripture, through the medium of human beings. Recognizing this is also to recognize that God is knowable to people to a level that is proportionate to their own spiritual development.

As an analogy, imagine how God reveals Himself to wasps. This is an absurd analogy, so you will have to bear with this, but if wasps are created by God, then is it so unimaginable that God did not create wasps only for their use to creation, but also so that they would be know their Creator? Perhaps, as an analogy, God’s revelation to wasps would be that to progress in their purpose as wasps, and as part of the divine plan to realize who they are and who God is, they are ordered to sting other creatures. The wasp prophet might tell the other wasps that it is God’s will they inflect their stingers on all kinds of living creatures. Looking in on this prophecy from the outside, to others, we see senseless stinging, resulting in pain and the deaths of wasps as they carry out God’s will. What we see is that it does not fit into our own spiritual plan for development, and it is absurd. But for a wasp, the action of stinging is a profound exercise in experiencing what it is like to be designed to sting. What ultimate reason or purpose is there in this analogy? What reason is there to be stung by a wasp, or to sting another person? I don’t know fully, but I could guess that God willed the wasp’s sting for the purpose of allowing His creation to experience pain and destruction. By experiencing that which is not perfect love and the absence of pain and struggle, we come to more fully understand not only God and his perfection, but ourselves.

But taking this idea even one more step above, and removing the personal will of God from the picture, and instead focusing on God’s transcendent qualities, because God is ultimately more than a personality and a will, but is also the perfect expression of order, we see that what is called “God’s will” by the prophet is also a metaphor for the full expression of choice. If we understand that all our actions have spiritual consequences, and that the theatre for their expression is our lives on earth as played out over time, then to experience those consequences (or something like karma) is also to fully experience God the transcendent law-giver. In that way, when the prophet says, “kill the foreigner and the idolator”, both the killer and the killed are experiencing God as law-giver and creator of perfect order, through the working of (I am sorry to use the word karma, because I know it is un-Christian, but it is a better way to express the idea than to simply say “God’s law”.) karma.

Here, we have God not as terrible, but our choices as terrible as they are manifest in contradiction to the unmovable light of God that is perfect love. This is recognizing that there are unseen and invisible consequences to our actions, and that those actions are not avoidable. If we put out into the world something, it will come back. Perhaps the God of the OT was working diligently to allow all people to see and understand that. The Israelites were uniquely sanctified to carry out the consequences of karma without creating more karma.

The special role of Israel in carrying out “God’s justice” or spiritual consequences that did not in turn create more consequences, is a pre-figurement of grace. The law of grace is where the law of spiritual consequences is fulfilled and ends.

Ultimately, then it was not God the personality ordering killings, but God the law-giver, and creator of spiritual consequences, ending those consequences through the sanctified actions of the people of Israel carrying out those consequences. Because it was sanctified Israel carrying out those consequences, the acts were righteous, and because they were righteous, did not create further consequences. This then becomes a pre-figurement of Grace, where karma ends.