God is not all good

[IrishJoe]

”And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.” Exodus 34:14

I’m currently agnostic. I accept that your God could be there and if he is I dont care as I dont see him worthy of worshiping. Anyway some christians siad that god is all good and all loving. Yet some of the things he does/condones in the OT don’t seem to be in any way good at all. Then there’s that bible quote about God repenting of evil so he just seems to be petty and vindictive to me. I mean there are lots of other God that’s are mentioned in the bible and elsewhere and throughout other religions why go for one who is clearly evil?

 

[Devare]

Because God is JUST. He always gives people a chance…
That verse is from the King James Version, the Douay-Rheims renders is slightly differently:

Exodus 32:14 And the Lord was appeased from doing the evil which he had spoken against his people.

(And you got the number wrong, it’s exodus 32 not 34).
People harden their own hearts, people do evil things which burdens themselves - God reacts to what WE do, not vice versa…

God is indeed loving:

Ephesians 3:19 To know also the charity of Christ, which surpasseth all knowledge: that you may be filled unto all the fulness of God. (DRB)
Ephesians 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. (KJV)

(in Old English, “charity” was the highest form of love)

Christ DIED for us, his love is the complex subject that you can study in the Bible - for, we’re just a bunch of rotten sinners!

There are verses some people don’t understand, but if you read the whole Bible - the picture slowly forms. The Old Testament is different because people were BOUND to the LAW! But Christ removed that - so, reading from the Old Testament first might be a bit blurry.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us (for it is written: Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree). (DRB)

Jesus Bless!

 

[IrishJoe]

so god cursed his people to bind them to the law? hardly seems loving or just to me.

 

[walshy]

To belive in a good and loving God means we have to look at areseleves.See our weakness our selfishness admit we are wrong and become obidient.On the other hand it is much easyer to say I’m agnostic and continue living as are own God making rules to suit ourselves.

 

[Devare]

so god cursed his people to bind them to the law? hardly seems loving or just to me.

Men choose to sin - thus they bound themselves to the Law, God knew this was a hinderance and removed it through manifesting himself in the flesh and dying on the cross.

God never cursed anyone to the law, it was we who have done it, now God undid it.

Remember in Psalm 23, the LORD is my shephred, we are just sheep that keep tipping over, and God has to set us upright again. What a wonderful saviour indeed!

 

[IrishJoe]

I still don’t think God is all good.

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

I’m currently agnostic. I accept that your God could be there and if he is I dont care as I dont see him worthy of worshiping. Anyway some christians siad that god is all good and all loving. Yet some of the things he does/condones in the OT don’t seem to be in any way good at all. Then there’s that bible quote about God repenting of evil so he just seems to be petty and vindictive to me. I mean there are lots of other God that’s are mentioned in the bible and elsewhere and throughout other religions why go for one who is clearly evil?

Asking kindly, what is worthy of being worshiped, in your opinion? We see what others worship, money, power, themselves, or sex. At some point our present bodies die. At that point, looking back, what is the worth of what was YOU. Will it be the truthful search without presuppositions, (not finding a verse in the Bible that fits what you don’t want to believe and ignoring the rest of it) as you saying you are agnostic indicates you don’t know but are still searching, a virtue in these times, and being led by the truth where ever it takes you? If that is what you want to see when you look back at your effort, then today is a joyous point in your life, as it is promised that all who seek will find. Worship the Truth, as that is God. The Way, the Truth, and the Life.

You must also know that evil is the absence of good. It was not created by God but by us through the creation of freewill by God. Animals do not have free will and intellect, we do. That makes us “in God’s image” as reported in the book of Genesis. Our worship of God through that freewill is our greatest good, evidenced by the joy deep inside those who forsake all visible false “goods” that they make “gods” by the rejection of the One True God. Many reject this as they believe they can be fulfilled as humans by things of this world, sex being no. 1 today. It doesn’t satisfy as our greatest good, those who make it their god descend into depravity, a descent readily seen in the media. All this is the essence of the truth, follow the Truth.

 

[RSD]

You know, if you are really seeking understanding on this, I have to say that understanding will not come from the sound bites (write bites?) that are possible on a forum like this. If you are really seeking understanding on this, find a good Catholic who will talk to you, and pray. Keep on asking your questions of God and His people until you reach a better understanding, whether it takes minutes or years. Many of us are still in the years part.

As an answer (this is only one tiny part of the answer) that will fit into this forum, realize that words are very limited. The sense of “evil” here that “God does” is not any evil in His nature, at all. It means something more like “doing things that are unpleasant to the people involved”. Just as a good parent will sometimes have to make rules, or even give punishments to children he loves, God in dealing with our sinful human nature will sometimes do things that we, within our limitations, might incorrectly perceive as evil. I know that sometimes I have inflicted a punishment that was something like “Go to your room until you are ready to apologize to your sister.” If that moment of repentance comes sooner than I expected, someone telling the story of what I was doing with that child might have said “And so the mother repented of the evil which she had planned for her child.” But it was really the child who repented, and so made the rest of the punishment unnecessary. In my experience it is many (many!) years before the child can see that the punishment was a good and loving decision on my part.

 

[walshy]

Most people don’t think God is all good because the goodness of God asks a question of us.Are we good, our are actions selfish or worthy of Christ.

 

[IrishJoe]

Asking kindly, what is worthy of being worshiped, in your opinion? We see what others worship, money, power, themselves, or sex.

Perhaps there are other deities more loving and more deserving of worship that a god that basically has us in an abusive marriage before we are even born; 'I love you as long as you obey me but if you dont ‘whack’

(not finding a verse in the Bible that fits what you don’t want to believe and ignoring the rest of it)

I am not basing it on merely one bible quote, my original question seemed to be supported by it. I have thought a bit about this over some time but I thought a bible quote was the way to help ask a genuine question.

as you saying you are agnostic indicates you don’t know but are still searching, a virtue in these times, and being led by the truth where ever it takes you? If that is what you want to see when you look back at your effort, then today is a joyous point in your life, as it is promised that all who seek will find.

Well I’ve been questioning for about 2-3 years (I was strongly catholic before that) and no answers hence why I’m agnostic for about the last 6 months anyway. The problem I’ve found is that if after searching one does not see your point of view then they will make the accusation that you didn’t search properly which is basically calling someone a liar and thus not exactly endearing you to their view in future should you wish to try and see it again.

Worship the Truth, as that is God. The Way, the Truth, and the Life.

Anyway I dont know that your God is the truth but it is what is true which is what I am trying to establish.

Our worship of God through that freewill is our greatest good, evidenced by the joy deep inside those who forsake all visible false “goods” that they make “gods” by the rejection of the One True God. Many reject this as they believe they can be fulfilled as humans by things of this world, sex being no. 1 today.

I would disagree as we are under threat of hell and damnation which seems to be forcing people to ‘love’ god and to me that is a large turn off. I would like to think that I have enough integrity that if someone threaten to torture me over my pro-life views that I woudn’t change them. In addition I personally think that selfishness is the biggest thing, or rather fear of selfishness. People are afraid of being screwed over so they go out to climb on top of the cake trampling those who are underneath them rather than helping their fellow man.

I have to say that understanding will not come from the sound bites (write bites?) that are possible on a forum like this.

Thank you! I have had such experience both online and face to face where I’ve said ‘I dont agree with X’ and they say ‘X is the >insert church definition here<’ And I say ‘I know what the church says it is but I dont agree with it’ and they respond ’ ‘X is the >insert church definition here<’ and this leads me to become very frustrated.

As for the catholic thing I dont know how that would work I’ve tried it before and praying too. This is not just ‘rar I’m angry I dont feel like praying’ its a fact that I cannot see why I should pray and although you may say it helps its good its whatever, I don’t believe that. (But I’m not saying that you are lying) Perhaps it is difficult for a person who truly belives that there is a loving God up there to identify with someone who may think God exists but does not think that he is loving or deserving of worship.

 

[PJM]

=IrishJoe;4895727]I’m currently agnostic. I accept that your God could be there and if he is I dont care as I dont see him worthy of worshiping. Anyway some christians siad that god is all good and all loving. Yet some of the things he does/condones in the OT don’t seem to be in any way good at all. Then there’s that bible quote about God repenting of evil so he just seems to be petty and vindictive to me. I mean there are lots of other God that’s are mentioned in the bible and elsewhere and throughout other religions why go for one who is clearly evil?

My dear friend Joe,

Do I get a few (cut me some slack points) because I too am irish (and proud ot it?):irish3:

Maybe I can help?

**If your here, so is God! **
We can know this because God is “SPIRIT” not “of MATTER.”

Humanity is blessed with several gifts that are SPIRIT and therefore not possible but from the souce we call God. Our intellect, minds, reason, memories, frewill and the Soul which annimates (gives us life itself) are all spiritual.

Joe, quantify for me your intellect. No, not you “IQ,” how long, deep, wide is it, how much does it weigh? You can’t because they are spiritual THINGS.

Becasue a THING can only be what it is, and can’t be what it is not are fact. So their is a "power, a source, that we term “Our God!”

If "this God is (and he is) the source of these spiritual THINGS that give you life and reason, is he not worthy of Worship, based just on these facts? Indeed He is!

God is and has to be all everything Good, and nothing that is evil! OK, so where does evil come from?

God as an attribute of His “all-Goodness” is also “all-Fair and all-JUST”. Because he has gifted us with intellect, will, reason memory, God MUST (it’s His very Nature to do so) allow us to freely use these gifts, this is key not as we CHOSE, but as we will ourselves to do.

In other words, God gave us gifts that permit us to know right and wrong, and then to do with ever we “will.” However, it is God intent that our “will” confrom to His will, and that we always “chose to do good.”

Evil exist because it is a necessary consequence of our “wills” if they are to be, truly “freewills.” They must have a choice between good and evil. agreed?

God can Only do that which is GOOD," however God can and does permit evil. Why? Every act by humanity, every opportunity, every thought, and every decision is a choice for or a rejection of God! Everything that happens is for God’s greater Glory and OUR POSSIBLE sanctification, meaning holding out the possibility that it can (not will) can bring us closer to God, who Created us.

Again God can and is always only Good, Just, Fair. Sometimes actions are so painfilled that is difficult to clearly see this. But God can’t do bad! Impossible, can’t happen.

So Joe, give me specifics of your concerns, and I’ll try to point out the “goodness” of God’s decisions.

Love and prayers Brother,:shamrock2:

 

[IrishJoe]

As I say, before we are born we are already judged unworthy and going to hell unless we are baptised (by blood/water/desire). So I don’t see this as fair or just.

 

[walshy]

I am unworthy of heaven.By the mercy of God through baptisim I can enter in.God died for us on the cross what greater act of love and goodness is there.

 

[RSD]

As I say, before we are born we are already judged unworthy and going to hell unless we are baptised (by blood/water/desire). So I don’t see this as fair or just.

This is not a Catholic doctrine.

I think you want to begin to distinguish between two different ideas (remember I am the one who said you really can’t get all you need from this format, so consider everything I say to be abridged, and keep looking for the unedited fullness of truth). I think you have an idea of good, of truth, of doing what is right. That is the beginning of your understanding of God. Then, that gets mixed up with various things that people who claim to know God have said about Him. I know that you realize that there are so many contradictory things said about God that no one could even try to believe them all. I strongly recommend that you study what the Catholic Church teaches, but make sure that you are getting true teachings. For instance, the above idea, that all the un-baptized
are going to Hell is not and never has been a Catholic doctrine.

Remember that God is Love. So develop your understanding of God beginning with what you have, and work bit by bit to a greater understanding.

And yes, prayer does work, sometimes v-e-r-y slowly. Prayer is definitely a medicine of which it can be said “If it is not working, double the dose!”

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

As I say, before we are born we are already judged unworthy and going to hell unless we are baptised (by blood/water/desire). So I don’t see this as fair or just.

Due to original sin, we may be unworthy. We are not judged unworthy due to no actions performed at the time of birth.

This original sin seems to me to be just the way things are. If things were different they would be the way they would be then. We can’t change it, only accept it or reject it as the way things are. If it is a mystery, and this is, then I would, like Descartes, find the basis for the beginning of the truth and not concentrate on what can be only known through faith. I know this is probably of little help but maybe something said on these many posts will be a start toward seeing God as Good. The Bible seems to indicate that the humble acceptance of God’s will is the greatest Good and happiness in that this is what we were made for. The rejection of this leads to much unhappiness, that is what I have experienced myself. I understand your rejection of this as your greatest good, but I do hope something will help.

 

[IrishJoe]

This is not a Catholic doctrine.

its called original sin. If we are born and die without being baptised we go to hell. In addition the teaching about limbo while dismissed was still a popular solution. In the churches happy fluffy revolution of late its been considered a ‘theological postulation’.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Joe, you ask good questions. If we read the OT at face value, within the context of our culture, God does not appear to be good.

I heard one explanation for this problem that was very intriguing. I believe the answer is very consistent with Catholic thought, but others might not. It certainly is not an official Catholic answer from a Catholic source.

The explanation was from a person who was an atheist and had a very compelling near death experience. His first question on the Other Side was if all this Christian religion stuff was true. He was told it was true. He then questioned the inconsistencies and problems, such as your problem, why does the OT God appear to be a tribalistic, petulant, jealous, evil, genocidal being.

He was told that God has given his messages to humanity at many times and in many places, through many people. He was told that within all of those messages, there was truth, but not perfect truth. Even in God’s revealed messages, the imprints of the culture and the beliefs and the personalities of the people who received the messages were clear. It had to be that way, because God couldn’t purely reveal himself to man. His messages had to be communicated through people.

Finally, God decided to send the perfect message in the embodiment of the human person, and that was Jesus.

So, when you ask yourself, why would the OT say something like, “God repented of the evil he was thinking of bringing on his people”, you are hearing an interpretation of a message through the ancient, tribalistic, even abusive (to our culture) mindset of the Hebrew nation. These were savage people with barbaric practices. God still loved them enough to try to speak to them. This is just what it sounded like when they translated his message.

 

[Michael_David]

I was lucky enough to have good parents, they did not spare the rod, or the love, in raising me. Looking back, when dad used the rod on me, I deserved it, knew what it was for, and was back in the family after.

Through many jobs, I have had both good and bad bosses, when able to compare one alongside the other. Where does my ‘concept’ of good and bad come from… perhaps my upbringing. If, however, say the boss I place as the worst was the best type my wife ever had, she would look at that boss as a good one, not a bad one like I do. Seems the use of ‘good’ is relative to what is in reference to it. After a hurricane goes through, even a cloudy calm day is considered a good day… soon we forget, and it takes a sunny day to please us.

When referencing God and Good in the same sentence, I think we repeat ourselves. As I look back over my life, and I am fairly well aged, I see both good and bad times… through the eye’s of a physical being in society; through the eye’s of a spiritual being, I also see good and bad times. But what is different here, is that the times are opposite to each other.

When the ‘rod’ was used on me in life, I again, deserved it… as in doing on to another what I do not want done unto me. In these times, God could be out of the picture, as it had to do with my fellow human being right here in-front of me, in the physical existence. However, with the spiritual eye’s, things look different, and we are both also spiritual beings… working out our salvation.

I believe it’s not only our concept of what good is, but also, which eye’s one is looking through…

 

[IrishJoe]

I heard one explanation for this problem that was very intriguing. I believe the answer is very consistent with Catholic thought, but others might not. It certainly is not an official Catholic answer from a Catholic source.

The explanation was from a person who was an atheist and had a very compelling near death experience. His first question on the Other Side was if all this Christian religion stuff was true. He was told it was true. He then questioned the inconsistencies and problems, such as your problem, why does the OT God appear to be a tribalistic, petulant, jealous, evil, genocidal being.

He was told that God has given his messages to humanity at many times and in many places, through many people. He was told that within all of those messages, there was truth, but not perfect truth. Even in God’s revealed messages, the imprints of the culture and the beliefs and the personalities of the people who received the messages were clear. It had to be that way, because God couldn’t purely reveal himself to man. His messages had to be communicated through people.

Finally, God decided to send the perfect message in the embodiment of the human person, and that was Jesus.

So, when you ask yourself, why would the OT say something like, “God repented of the evil he was thinking of bringing on his people”, you are hearing an interpretation of a message through the ancient, tribalistic, even abusive (to our culture) mindset of the Hebrew nation. These were savage people with barbaric practices. God still loved them enough to try to speak to them. This is just what it sounded like when they translated his message.

Isn’t the bible supposed to be inerrent?

Also the church teaches that if someone dies without sanctifying grace they are going to hell. People are born without sanctifying grace (original sin) therefore unbaptised babies their fate cannot be officially proclaimed to say that they are in hell (as the church does not teach that anyon is definatly in hell.) but according to the rules they are. Otherwise it doesn’t really matter if we don’t get baptised or whatever.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Isn’t the bible supposed to be inerrent?

How exactly does that explanation make the Bible errant? That would be like saying a blind man who describes the trunk of an elephant but not the feet of an elephant was “errant”. There is difference between error and incompletely revealed truth.

Also the church teaches that if someone dies without sanctifying grace they are going to hell. People are born without sanctifying grace (original sin) therefore unbaptised babies their fate cannot be officially proclaimed to say that they are in hell (as the church does not teach that anyon is definatly in hell.) but according to the rules they are. Otherwise it doesn’t really matter if we don’t get baptised or whatever.

I thought you were actually looking for an answer and not an argument, but apparently I was wrong.