God is not dead!

[Poustinia]

You started this thread ten days ago and haven’t posted on it since. Why now? Why to me? Do you smell blood, is this a pack instinct or something?

Sorry for being absent from the discussion, but there are so many interesting things that have been brought up in this thread and posting is very time consuming for me.

Don’t forget the sticky: “It is never acceptable to question the sincerity of an individual’s beliefs”.

You didn’t renounce Islam. I think that you are Muslim. This doesn’t mean that I am questioning the sincerity of your beliefs.

I find it odd that Catholics have a difficult time getting a positive response when they argue this and other controversial topics. Most of the answers to the question of sodomy are some form of: “It is yucky!” When we were kids we didn’t want eat that one vegetable because we thought that it was “Yucky.” But our parents made us eat it because it was good for us. We have learned to overcome our avoidance of “Yuk”. But some people didn’t have such experiences and, I think that we need to keep that in mind when we give answers to such questions, and to suit the answer to the enquirer. As a general guideline: Answers to materialists ought to come from natural law, answers to Muslims ought to be presented from Divine Revelation, answers to Protestants must be from both, and answers to Catholics from both, plus from human experience. It just makes sense to me.

I prayed and felt inspired by God to respond about about Sodomy and how it is forbidden by Divine Revelation, and not just by natural law.

But first an opening from scripture which says that natural law is an authoritative source for truth in contrast to what Islam asserts. Isn’t it ironic that St. Paul recognizes that sexual rebellion leads to the denial of truth from natural law and this is precisely where the discussion on this thread has gone?

Rom 1:18-32: “The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness. For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them. Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse; for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened. While claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes. Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper. They are filled with every form of wickedness, evil, greed, and malice; full of envy, murder, rivalry, treachery, and spite. They are gossips and scandalmongers and they hate God. They are insolent, haughty, boastful, ingenious in their wickedness, and rebellious toward their parents. They are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.” vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PYP.HTM

SODOMY IS FORBIDDEN BY DIVINE REVELATION will be forthcoming, but please be patient with me because I am slow.

Poustinia

 

[PRmerger]

Gotta agree with Betterave, here. All my interactions with inocente have been dead-ends and weird. Not that I dislike the guy, though.

If one could not picture discussing religion over a glass of wine or sitting in a coffee shop with a CAFs poster, then one ought not be in dialogue with said poster.

This ought to be the equivalent of sitting in someone’s garden having a great theological discussion, music playing in the background, sipping some good beverages and eating something deliciously unhealthy.

Otherwise, the dialogue devolves rather quickly.

 

[PRmerger]

turf war: a dispute between gangs over territory, a struggle for power or control.

You must have lived an innocent, care-free existence.

Pretty much. Admittedly, I have been blessed. Except for the death of my father in 1991 I think I’ve had no misery of which I would cry out to God in dispair.

It’s when Protestants/Catholics say Catholics/Protestants are not True Christians™ because of X. Or Christians/Atheists say Atheists/Christians are evil because of Y. Or one Catholic labels another Catholic a cafeteria, whatever that’s supposed to mean (I think ooh, oooo, can I be a cafeteria too?)

Fair enough.

No Catholic ought to proclaim that anyone is evil. I’m pretty sure that’s not allowed.

As far as labeling someone a cafeteria Catholic, I prefer to use the descriptor: those who have created a god in their own image and likeness.

Best post I’ve read on this subject:
I would actually agree if one person was to approach another, stick a finger in his/her chest, and say “You are a Cafeteria Catholic.”

Having said that, though, to deny that there is not a condition of “cafeteria Catholicism” is simply a denial of reality.

I suppose that a different word/phrase could be coined to describe the condition. But the subsequent word/phrase would then be attacked as being “insensitive” or “uncharitable.”

In the majority of cases, those who are personally offended by this are those who will not confront the fact that they intentionally, obstinately, and publicly reject many of the Church’s teachings.

 

[PRmerger]

Pretty much. Admittedly, I have been blessed. Except for the death of my father in 1991 I think I’ve had no misery of which I would cry out to God in -]dispair./-]despair.

Grrrr. I do not like spelling errors. Especially when they’re my own.

 

[PRmerger]

No not illogical, we’re not free to worship the devil or anything, that’s kind of understood,

Exactly. There’s some sort of list somewhere in your Baptist paradigm of what you’re free to believe and what you’re not free to believe.

What this list is, and who decides, I’m not certain. But I would proffer that these are a few of the things one is not free to believe/profess:
-there are many gods
-Jesus is not Lord
-Satan is good

This is in direct contrast to your comment here:

Originally Posted by inocente
We don’t have a hierarchy sending down instructions from on high, we’re not political lobbyists, we’re Christians, free to make up our own minds. That’s kind of central to Baptists, btw.

but no one has authority over us,

Kind of creates chaos, no?

everything is voluntary.

Well, yes, inocente. This is like Catholicism. The Church proposes; she never imposes.

We don’t have any creed,

This is not exactly true. There is some sort of creed–though undefined and nebulous–else Fred Phelps would be allowed to preach in your church, yes?

There are plenty of Catholics on CAF who don’t agree with various aspects of the RCC’s sexual ethics either. Are they not free to make up their own minds, are they also nonsense?

There are indeed many Catholics who have divorced themselves from the faith of the Apostles. This is true. And they are free to make up their own minds (for, as stated earlier, the Church does not impose but only proposes). However, there is only One Catholic Church and to the degree that one departs from it is the degree that they are not joined to His Body.

 

[StrawberryJam]

In summary, how do the posters here who think they have won this one feel we should remember and learn from this? And why?

 

[inocente]

It might take me a while to post replies as I didn’t expect to be the object of a witch hunt and my shiny new satellite finder kit arrived today, and I’m on a new level on Bubble Town.

No. My response was to your comments, not what two thirds of Spanish people think. After all, you said the words “perverts” and “sodomy”, as used by Charlemagne II were “loaded words”. In other words, you belittled the use of those words because you know full well that their true meanings make what two thirds of Spanish people have decided to accept rather distasteful.

US polls also show rising acceptance of gays. But then I guess there has to be, given that Americans now think 25% of them are gay or lesbian.

You guys across the Pond.

Over here it’s neither a crime nor psychiatric illness. It’s not what most people would do, but then we don’t call people with degrees in media studies perverts, although that’s not what most of us would do either.

Nice attempt at sidestepping once again. Because two thirds of Spanish people decide to make a wrong acceptable by law doesn’t alter the wrongness of that which they decide to accept. Nor does it make equal that which is, by nature, unequal.

It will come to your town too, like it or not. It’s great how some Catholics are so certain about what’s right and wrong they can write off 30 million other Catholics in Spain alone.

You made that one up! Natural Law is the only objective ethical system mankind has. If you think the contents of the “catologue of goods” are subjectively arrived at, then you have inadvertently condemned all science to the basket of subjectivity.

No, honest guv. I found this for you - plato.stanford.edu/entries/homosexuality/#NatLaw

There’s a common misunderstanding that because it’s called natural law, it’s somehow like the laws of physics. It isn’t, it’s just one system amongst many - Kantian ethics, social contract, consequentialism, virtue theory – I’m no expert here, but there’s certainly more systems of ethics than you can shake a stick at. You happen to be a fan of one of them. After reading many of them, they all have weak and strong points, none of them shines forth like a beacon. None of them are objective in the sense of a law of gravity. Call me a relativist. Go on, you know you want to. And clearly it’s true.

All objective criteria describe homosexuality as disordered and certainly not normative.

You’d have to demonstrate that your criteria are objective. Give it your best shot.

My remarks weren’t flippant. What I did was give you a very Spanish example of the hypocrisy involved in giving certain ‘rights’ to one group of people, while denying certain ‘rights’ to another group of people The notion of “equality” is thus rendered to be little more than one of expediency.

No, I meant I was being flippant, not you . But I don’t get your logic that the Spanish are being hypocritical by giving equal rights. It is senseless to punish homosexuals, they haven’t done anything wrong. It is sensible to punish criminals, they have done something wrong. Where’s the hypocrisy? What’s not to like?

Senseless suffering!! Tell that to the Basques who have been brutalised for centuries. Meanwhile you have fallen for the propoganda that would have us believe that gays have “suffered” because they couldn’t “marry”. I still await an answer to my query about my intense suffering because I can’t marry my dog. After all, it’s just plain unfair!!

How, and be really specific here, do you think the Basques are being brutalized by the current Spanish and French governments? Because they forced ETA to stop bombing the Basques? We bought our finca from an old lady who lost her husband, a police lieutenant, in an ETA bombing in the 70s. It was going to be their farm when he retired. Her dancing shoes still in a wardrobe because she could never go back. Real world and cozy bubbles, eh?

Google “marry your pet” and you’ll find various places in the USA that will do it. But again, you are commenting on remarks from our president, not from me.

Inocente, you celebrate secualrism, yet are blind to what it can turn up and is turning up in society when objective morality is forgotten.

Certainly not celebrating the mess secularism has made of divorce. But if you maintain one system of morality is streets ahead of others, you need to explain why it isn’t obvious out there in the real world. Saying that materialism has taken over isn’t an answer, because it would never have taken over to start with if the morality was so mighty fine and dandy. Hence, to support this morality, folk needed to invent an all powerful conspiracy - the people of Spain are blinded by secularism, etc.

Or, it could be that people are not evil puppets and God has a plan.

It’s a bar room brawl because you drink the bad grog, shoot from the hip, miss the target and instead blow out all the windows, shatter the bottles and even wound the bartender.

Meanwhile the rest of us lean on the bar casually drinking in perfect safety because you can’t shoot straight!!

 

[inocente]

The RCC is in crisis all over the world. So is Protestantism. Christianity has been in crisis mode since the crucifixion.

Exactly what is your point? That Baptists like yourself are going to save Christianity by caving in to moral relativism and the spread of sodomy?

Who told you the RCC is in crisis all over the world? Sure it has receded in Europe, dramatically in some countries, and has other issues like a big short-fall of priests in the USA. Elsewhere numbers are increasing, especially in Africa and Asia. Eg - news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/catholic-numbers-rise-in-africa-vatican-20100428-tqcs.html

Does that burst your bubble yet? That the world might be a bit bigger than Kansas?

Is that the problem here, I ask why so many are hung up on sideshows like gays when there are big issues like the crisis of the RCC in Ireland and Spain, and beyond the RCC problems like drug abuse, third world poverty, etc. etc., and all it did was press your HEINOUS THOUGHT-CRIME BIGOT button, how dare anyone quote real facts and disagree with you about gays?

I think the operative expression is get over yourself.

I hear you calling a lot of Catholics bigots on the subject of same sex marriage. I didn’t hear you also calling your fellow Baptists in the Southern Baptist convention a lot of bigots. Did I miss that post?

Still not seen any evidence that I called anyone a bigot or am a bigot. Just a load of waffle justifying egos, or else complete silence.

This from people saying they are Christians - how hard is it for a Christian to say sorry? Thing is, if guys want to be macho they need more than testosterone.

You identify yourself as a Baptist but don’t cite the formal position of any Baptist group on same sex marriage. You slam Catholics for their morals on same sex marriage, but when it is pointed out to you that the Southern Baptist Convention declares itself against same sex marriage, you ask me to read some history?

Why not cite any Baptist group anywhere in the world that endorses same sex marriage?

Ah, the old American witch hunt gambit.

Yet again, I’ve no idea about these Eastern Delights you keep on about.

To find a gay-tolerant church near you, why not look here:

wabaptists.org/wachurches.htm
wabaptists.org/whoweare.htm

I can’t name an association for the church I’m in now because there are none in Spain. Back in the old country my church was loosely affiliated with the Baptist Union. Look it up, see what their policy is.

Now, would you like my home address and phone number too?

I’m thinking of adding this to my sig - What do you think?

Bigoted materialist relativist muslim deist atheist nihilist.
Be a True Christian™ - stereotype me today

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Strawberry
**
In summary, how do the posters here who think they have won this one feel we should remember and learn from this? And why? **

What I wish you would learn is that this is not a contest so much as a search for the truth.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Strawberry
**
In summary, how do the posters here who think they have won this one feel we should remember and learn from this? And why? **

What I wish you would learn is that this is not a contest so much as a search for the truth.

We have to follow the evidence to do that with our hearts and minds together.

 

[inocente]

The RCC is in crisis all over the world. So is Protestantism. Christianity has been in crisis mode since the crucifixion.

Exactly what is your point? That Baptists like yourself are going to save Christianity by caving in to moral relativism and the spread of sodomy?

Who told you the RCC is in crisis all over the world? Sure it has receded in Europe, dramatically in countries like Spain and Ireland, and has other issues like a big short-fall of priests in the USA. Elsewhere numbers are increasing, especially in Africa and Asia. Eg - news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/catholic-numbers-rise-in-africa-vatican-20100428-tqcs.html

Does that burst your bubble yet? That the world might be a bit bigger than Kansas?

Is that the problem here, I ask why so many are hung up on sideshows when there are real problems in the world and all it did was press your CONTROL FREAK HEINOUS THOUGHT-CRIME button, how dare anyone quote real facts and disagree with you?

I think the operative expression is get over yourself.

I hear you calling a lot of Catholics bigots on the subject of same sex marriage.

Still not seen any evidence that I called anyone a bigot or am a bigot. Just a load of waffling trying to justify egos, or else complete silence as if.

How hard is it for a Christian to say sorry? Put up or shut up - you need more than testosterone to be macho bro.

You identify yourself as a Baptist but don’t cite the formal position of any Baptist group on same sex marriage. You slam Catholics for their morals on same sex marriage, but when it is pointed out to you that the Southern Baptist Convention declares itself against same sex marriage, you ask me to read some history?

Why not cite any Baptist group anywhere in the world that endorses same sex marriage?

Ah, the old American witch hunt gambit. OK in similar spirit, how do I know you’re a Christian, how do I know you’re born again and it isn’t all just books and words to you? (clue - you say sorry is how I will know)

Yet again, I’ve no idea about these Eastern Delights you keep on about.

To find a gay-tolerant Baptist church near you, why not look here:

wabaptists.org/wachurches.htm
wabaptists.org/whoweare.htm

There are no associations in Spain. Back in the old country my church was loosely affiliated with the Baptist Union. Look it up, see what their policy is.

Would you like my home address and credit card number too?

 

[inocente]

As far as labeling someone a cafeteria Catholic, I prefer to use the descriptor: those who have created a god in their own image and likeness.

We have a sort of equivalent, which is about putting down other Christian denominations, although far more often other Baptist churches . I guess it’s human to seek out and accentuate divisions, to find faults in others, and we all do it.

We’re all supposed to be better than that though. On matters of conscience, CCC 1790 says “A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself.” Yet the CRB (CAF Right-wing Brigade) think it can be overridden by the next line. It can’t. In the real-world I don’t know one Catholic who doesn’t believe that matters of conscience are indeed matters of conscience, only on CAF is there the idea of herds of righteous sheep.

But I’m now torn about speaking my mind. On one hand the CRB has been getting me down for some months – so sensitive, so defensive, so despondent. If I stick up for science, other religions, people, reality then I just get hate speak spewed at me (on this thread vomited on me).

Do I add to CAF’s coffers or cut my losses and leave? Which is best for my soul?

But to stay on-topic, imho the CRB are definitely killing God softly, one day at a time. If I was a lost soul looking for God, I’d be scared witless by some of the things supposed Christians say about others on CAF.

Exactly. There’s some sort of list somewhere in your Baptist paradigm of what you’re free to believe and what you’re not free to believe.

To a Baptist the word church means a body of people who worship together – a congregation, not a building or organization. My church is the people I sit down with. One consequence of this is it bypasses formalities. Your friends and pastor know if you understand the gospel, they know if you accepted Christ, because … they know you. And when they believe you’re ready, you can be baptized, which is how your join your church.

And after that if you disagree with your pastor you go find another church.

Kind of creates chaos, no?

Yes it’s beautifully messy compared to most (all?) other denominations. Great isn’t it?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

inocente

But I’m now torn about speaking my mind. On one hand the CRB has been getting me down for some months – so sensitive, so defensive, so despondent. If I stick up for science, other religions, people, reality then I just get hate speak spewed at me (on this thread vomited on me).

It’s not hate. It’s disagreement … sometimes strong disagreement. Why do you confuse disagreement with hate. If it’s what you feel, consider the source … yourself. Maybe unconsciously you hate some of the things you say in this forum?

 

[PRmerger]

We have a sort of equivalent, which is about putting down other Christian denominations, although far more often other Baptist churches . I guess it’s human to seek out and accentuate divisions, to find faults in others, and we all do it.

Oh, the irony of this statement! For in the same breath this divisive and judgmental comment comes forth:

If I was a lost soul looking for God, I’d be scared witless by some of the things supposed Christians say about others on CAF.

Really, inocente? You save the right to allege someone is only a “supposed Christian” for yourself and no other CAF member?

 

[PRmerger]

Originally Posted by PRmerger
Exactly. There’s some sort of list somewhere in your Baptist paradigm of what you’re free to believe and what you’re not free to believe

.

To a Baptist the word church means a body of people who worship together – a congregation, not a building or organization. My church is the people I sit down with. One consequence of this is it bypasses formalities. Your friends and pastor know if you understand the gospel, they know if you accepted Christ, because … they know you. And when they believe you’re ready, you can be baptized, which is how your join your church.

Fine. It’s a non-sequitor, but there’s nothing wrong with the above paradigm.

It is a curious statement, though, what’s bolded. When they believe you’re ready? Meaning they’ve professed certain beliefs consonant with that of the fallible pastor?

And after that if you disagree with your pastor you go find another church.

Indeed. Church shopping. The “making of a god in one’s own image and likeness” paradigm put into action.

Rather than conforming one’s self to Truth, one decides to “find another church” that conforms to one’s own image and likeness.

Yes it’s beautifully messy compared to most (all?) other denominations. Great isn’t it?

Absolutely not! How horrific to think of theological chaos as “great”! :bigyikes:

God is a God of Truth, Beauty and Order.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

inocente

Does that burst your bubble yet? That the world might be a bit bigger than Kansas?

Excuuuuuse me! That would be Texas! I think not!

 

[inocente]

It’s not hate. It’s disagreement … sometimes strong disagreement. Why do you confuse disagreement with hate. If it’s what you feel, consider the source … yourself. Maybe unconsciously you hate some of the things you say in this forum?

Nauseatingly pathetic amateur psychologist now? Could you stick with just one alter ego for a bit, this is getting me dizzy.

I hear you calling a lot of Catholics bigots on the subject of same sex marriage. I didn’t hear you also calling your fellow Baptists in the Southern Baptist convention a lot of bigots. Did I miss that post?

Your continued silence makes it obvious you can’t support your accusation. If it’s what you feel, consider the source … yourself. Maybe unconsciously you hate some of the things you say in this forum?

Noting you also don’t acknowledge that the witch hunt failed to get off the ground, and your theory the RCC is in crisis all over the world is a delusion, possibly brought on by too much conspiracy theorizing.

Excuuuuuse me! That would be Texas! I think not!

Went to Texas once. Gulf coast highway in honor of Nanci Griffith, then across to Big Bend, up to El Paso, then back east on a road where we kept passing the same bar (exactly the same bar) every couple of miles until we reached Fort Worth.

Much preferred Louisiana.

 

[inocente]

Really, inocente? You save the right to allege someone is only a “supposed Christian” for yourself and no other CAF member?

No of course not. There’s silly and there’s sillier. Which one will you be today?

It is a curious statement, though, what’s bolded. When they believe you’re ready? Meaning they’ve professed certain beliefs consonant with that of the fallible pastor?

It’s how it is. I didn’t invent it, just turned up one day as an atheist and Jesus found me.

I guess the fact it was a fallible choice and not my birth religion makes me inferior here. :curtsey:

Rather than conforming one’s self to Truth, one decides to “find another church” that conforms to one’s own image and likeness.

Ah, I see you’ve gone into ye olde Capitalization Mode. Whatever you happen to believe is truth must be The Truth. Yes, that makes sense. Or …

Absolutely not! How horrific to think of theological chaos as “great”! :bigyikes:

God is a God of Truth, Beauty and Order.

You confuse the nature of God with what we know. I love that none of us know the mind of God, that God keeps us guessing. God is great, He ain’t going to fit in your back pocket.

 

[tonyrey]

God is great, He ain’t going to fit in your back pocket.

God doesn’t seem to exist as far as you’re concerned… or only as a totally inscrutable enigma…

 

[tonyrey]

Yes, religion is failing badly, but of course that’s got nothing at all to do with religionists.

In that case it’s either God’s fault or the fault of non-believers…