God is not dead!

[Betterave]

Yes, sadly there are some Catholic posters here who cannot chew the religious-dialogue fat without derogatory remarks. 'Tis a shame, indeed. :sad_yes:

Best is to ignore and/or report to the mods. I do.

PR, 'tis generally best to avoid flatly contradicting fellow-CAF members, but when you do and your contradicting claim is questioned, you ought to feel under an obligation to provide the reasons grounding your contradicting claims - your instinct ought not to be to ignore the claim you disagree with or to report the poster who made these claims to the mods. 'Tis a shame you seem to think otherwise. Simply by definition, such an attitude expresses bigotry, as I have mentioned previously.

 

[Betterave]

Agreed - refutations made with integrity are what make debate interesting in exactly the way personal attacks don’t.

Exactly! You’ve got the principle; now try applying it.

 

[PRmerger]

It’s not me, it’s what Keating writes, chapter one, it’s only five pages. He imagines a friendly Protestant church where everyone knows your name and a cold Catholic church where you walk alone.

One other thing, inocente.

I think the excerpt I read details rather realistically the imagined journey of a hypothetical Catholic into eventually exiting the Church–because, as the author notes, new Protestant doctrine is “being poured into a vacuum.” That is, this un-catechized Catholic has no knowledge of Catholic doctrine, or her knowledge exists at a juvenile level. :yup:

 

[StrawberryJam]

One other thing, inocente.

I think the excerpt I read details rather realistically the imagined journey of a hypothetical Catholic into eventually exiting the Church–because, as the author notes, new Protestant doctrine is “being poured into a vacuum.” That is, this un-catechized Catholic has no knowledge of Catholic doctrine, or her knowledge exists at a juvenile level. :yup:

The knowledge of Catholic doctrine is …

Tell me.

 

[PRmerger]

The knowledge of Catholic doctrine is …

Tell me.

Sorry. This question makes no sense to me. Could you please re-phrase?

If you’re asking what Catholic teaching is, then you’ll find it in the Catechism, the Scriptures, the encyclicals. You’ll not have a hard time finding that. In fact, after being here on the CAFs for as long as you have, you should have been steeped in Catholic doctrine by now.

Heck, I daresay that you could provide better apologia than the majority of Joe-lump-in-the-pews-Catholic populating the local parishes each Sunday.

 

[inocente]

Sorry for the delay, been really busy.

Sadly, what Keating writes is a very accurate imagined accounting of a realistic and common occurrence in the US Catholic Church.

Why is it common? I mean there must be friendly Catholic churches with priests who are good at building communities, so it’s hard for me to work out why that doesn’t catch on.

Doesn’t matter. The fullness of truth lies in the Catholic Church. That she has failed to feed her flock with this truth and that its members are mainly clueless about the treasury within her walls, is, essentially irrelevant.

Though there’s no point keeping treasures locked up where no one can find them.

*I say go where the Truth is, and conform your views to this Truth, not find a church that conforms to your own truth.

Doesn’t it stand to reason that God would have something to say which we find unpalatable?*

But going to church doesn’t have to be like a visit to the dentist, there’s truth in Amazing Grace.

I’ve never been to a Catholic charismatic church but imagine it would look and feel similar to the kind of church I’m used to. Some Catholics on CAF have said they are charismatics, and this would be one way of livening-up churches (as well as bringing Catholics and Protestants closer together). Is it a minority sport in the US? – I’ve no idea of its popularity and whether it’s accepted or frowned upon.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Sorry. This question makes no sense to me. Could you please re-phrase?

If you’re asking what Catholic teaching is, then you’ll find it in the Catechism, the Scriptures, the encyclicals. You’ll not have a hard time finding that. In fact, after being here on the CAFs for as long as you have, you should have been steeped in Catholic doctrine by now.

Heck, I daresay that you could provide better apologia than the majority of Joe-lump-in-the-pews-Catholic populating the local parishes each Sunday.

I try.

I am still asking you what it means.

 

[PRmerger]

I try.

I am still asking you what it means.

The knowledge of Catholic doctrine is theology, ecclesiology, Mariology, Biblical exegesis, Christology, apologetics, soteriology, philosophy, logic, reason, faith seeking understanding, in history, eschatology, anthropology, sociology, etc etc etc.

 

[PRmerger]

Why is it common? I mean there must be friendly Catholic churches with priests who are good at building communities, so it’s hard for me to work out why that doesn’t catch on.

This is a multi-faceted and interesting question.

I’m off to work now, but I found this article insightful:

catholicdefense.blogspot.com/2011/05/why-are-catholics-so-cold.html

Will address this more in depth later!

You might want to google “Mark Shea” and “why are Catholics so” lukewarm/blah/lazy/cold…
I heard him speak on Catholic Radio about this, but haven’t had time to research what he’s written about it.

Peace to you!

 

[inocente]

I’m off to work now, but I found this article insightful:

catholicdefense.blogspot.com/2011/05/why-are-catholics-so-cold.html

His main point is that Catholic city churches are bursting at the seams with oceans of parishioners, swamping the priests. But that’s just logistics - build more churches, recruit more priests. The issue would then be the same as it is in Spain – fewer young men want to be priests.

Here’s the first two hits when I googled “US priest shortage”:

usnews.com/news/articles/2008/04/18/what-to-do-about-the-priest-shortage

msnbc.msn.com/id/7384580/ns/nightly_news/t/priest-shortage-plagues-us-catholic-church/

The MSNBC video is old but interesting – a lay woman as pastor, with a priest who has to “circuit ride” to perform Mass in multiple parishes. Having to spend most of his day isolated isn’t at all good for the priest, especially when he’s not allowed a family to return to at the end of his day. The answer is blindingly obvious – drop the rule about celibacy and become an equal opportunities employer. Twice as many potential recruits and no disincentives, done and dusted, win win.

I’m never going to get the hang of why this can’t happen.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m never going to get the hang of why this can’t happen.

That’s because you view the priesthood as another ministry/profession. Not with the ontological eyes of the Catholic Church.

The priesthood is NOT a job. At the moment of ordination, the universe is changed forever, inocente! What existed 30 seconds prior to this ordination exists no more. There is a change to his very essence–ontologically–at his soul.

How much more I have to say! But work becksons…

Oh, and in regards to married priests (and women priests, too, I suppose would be your argument), one has to wonder why the Episcopal Church, with married priests, cannot recruit more seminarians.

Finally, can you imagine this lone priest in the article you cited (still haven’t read it–but I plan to!) working like that all day–and then coming home to family responsibilities? Oy ve!

 

[inocente]

The priesthood is NOT a job. At the moment of ordination, the universe is changed forever, inocente! What existed 30 seconds prior to this ordination exists no more. There is a change to his very essence–ontologically–at his soul.

OK, but that doesn’t stop her having a family.

Oh, and in regards to married priests (and women priests, too, I suppose would be your argument), one has to wonder why the Episcopal Church, with married priests, cannot recruit more seminarians.

According to the following, the shortage in the Episcopal Church is a lot less severe, partly caused by priests not wanting rural parishes, and is possibly exaggerated anyway. But also there is a vicious circle:

Clergy shortages tend to intensify due to their own internal dynamics. In the case of the Roman Catholic Church, the attempt to spread priests over a number of parishes in an attempt to preserve the model of a primary sacramental leader has led to a worsening of the priest shortage problem. In a research study on Roman Catholic Priests in multiple parish situations, the policy of progressively extending parish responsibilities across more parishes exacerbated problems of exhaustion, burnout, and isolation. Moreover, these policies were being pursued with an aging clergy, many of whom were struggling with the travel and time commitments entailed by multi-parish responsibilities. When a priest is unable to continue, an increased burden tends to fall on those remaining, and the downward spiral of the priest shortage takes another turn. - download.cpg.org/home/publications/pdf/clergy_shortage_report.pdf

Finally, can you imagine this lone priest in the article you cited (still haven’t read it–but I plan to!) working like that all day–and then coming home to family responsibilities? Oy ve!

I think it would be much better - she’d have a partner to share the burden. Priests are good people, you need to look after them!

 

[Poustinia]

I am still asking you what it means.

It all means this: To know God, to love Him, to serve Him in this life and to be happy with him in the next.

You’ve been posting on these forums for some time now, and you have come to know about God, but do you know Him as a person? Perhaps you should pray and ask God to reveal Himself to you. When He does reveal Himself to you, then you will respond to Him in faith = I believe.

CCC #158 “Faith seeks understanding”: it is intrinsic to faith that a believer desires to know better the One in whom he has put his faith, and to understand better what He has revealed; a more penetrating knowledge will in turn call forth a greater faith, increasingly set afire by love. the grace of faith opens “the eyes of your hearts” to a lively understanding of the contents of Revelation: that is, of the totality of God’s plan and the mysteries of faith, of their connection with each other and with Christ, the centre of the revealed mystery. “The same Holy Spirit constantly perfects faith by his gifts, so that Revelation may be more and more profoundly understood.” In the words of St. Augustine, “I believe, in order to understand; and I understand, the better to believe.” vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PX.HTM

Poustinia

PS I’m still working on Sodomy Is Forbidden By Divine Revelation, I hope that you are all willing to wait, I do believe that I mentioned that I’m slow at posting

 

[StrawberryJam]

It all means this: To know God, to love Him, to serve Him in this life and to be happy with him in the next.

You’ve been posting on these forums for some time now, and you have come to know about God, but do you know Him as a person? Perhaps you should pray and ask God to reveal Himself to you. When He does reveal Himself to you, then you will respond to Him in faith = I believe.

CCC #158 “Faith seeks understanding”: it is intrinsic to faith that a believer desires to know better the One in whom he has put his faith, and to understand better what He has revealed; a more penetrating knowledge will in turn call forth a greater faith, increasingly set afire by love. the grace of faith opens “the eyes of your hearts” to a lively understanding of the contents of Revelation: that is, of the totality of God’s plan and the mysteries of faith, of their connection with each other and with Christ, the centre of the revealed mystery. “The same Holy Spirit constantly perfects faith by his gifts, so that Revelation may be more and more profoundly understood.” In the words of St. Augustine, “I believe, in order to understand; and I understand, the better to believe.” vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PX.HTM

Poustinia

PS I’m still working on Sodomy Is Forbidden By Divine Revelation, I hope that you are all willing to wait, I do believe that I mentioned that I’m slow at posting

Not into Sodomy so, your holy book is pretty useless there again.
As it is in general.

I mean, I am not doing anything that would be considered a mortal sin except for the fact that I don’t believe.

I wish I was a chistian so I could blame demons for my own personal decisions along the way, but I know better than that.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

I wish I was a chistian so I could blame demons for my own personal decisions along the way, but I know better than that.

Are you intending to imply that Catholics have faith so they can blame the devil? Thats a very dishonest move that you just made.

NO. Most catholics, those who are serious, become Catholic because they are honest enough to admit that they have a spiritual and moral fault in their own behavior.

 

[PRmerger]

OK, but that doesn’t stop her having a family.

Yes, the priest is a member of each family, yet belongs to none.

According to the following, the shortage in the Episcopal Church is a lot less severe, partly caused by priests not wanting rural parishes, and is possibly exaggerated anyway.

But is it because the Episcopal Church has married clergy? I skimmed the article and did not see any reference to that.

Clergy shortages tend to intensify due to their own internal dynamics. In the case of the Roman Catholic Church, the attempt to spread priests over a number of parishes in an attempt to preserve the model of a primary sacramental leader has led to a worsening of the priest shortage problem. In a research study on Roman Catholic Priests in multiple parish situations, the policy of progressively extending parish responsibilities across more parishes exacerbated problems of exhaustion, burnout, and isolation. Moreover, these policies were being pursued with an aging clergy, many of whom were struggling with the travel and time commitments entailed by multi-parish responsibilities. When a priest is unable to continue, an increased burden tends to fall on those remaining, and the downward spiral of the priest shortage takes another turn. - download.cpg.org/home/publications/pdf/clergy_shortage_report.pdf

This is a sad reality indeed. :sad_yes:

I think it would be much better - she’d have a partner to share the burden.

He does! He has the Best Spouse in the world, no?

Priests are good people, you need to look after them!

No doubt. On this we are agreed.

 

[PRmerger]

Why is it common? I mean there must be friendly Catholic churches with priests who are good at building communities, so it’s hard for me to work out why that doesn’t catch on.

So back to this question, which I find quite interesting.

One answer as to why it’s so common is because non-denominational churches typically consist of folks who have gotten fired up about a doctrinal issue from *another *church, left to start their own church, and of course, are on fire because of this rebellion.

Another reason is that, as we are the largest entity in the US (and, on the planet of course), there’s bound to be all sorts of Catholics–that meet all the adjectives: on fire, lukewarm, convert, revert, cradle, cafeteria, nominal…etc.

Though there’s no point keeping treasures locked up where no one can find them.

True, true. Thanks to apostolates like CAFs we’re letting our light shine!

But going to church doesn’t have to be like a visit to the dentist, there’s truth in Amazing Grace.

Yes, but I wasn’t talking about going to Church. I was talking about Truth. If one’s church teaches truth that one finds palatable and likeable, then it’s quite likely that one has found a church that meets one’s own image, and not God’s.

IOW, wouldn’t it be logical to think that what God has revealed is going to cause you to squirm a bit and cause you to re-examine your ideology?

I’ve never been to a Catholic charismatic church but imagine it would look and feel similar to the kind of church I’m used to. Some Catholics on CAF have said they are charismatics, and this would be one way of livening-up churches (as well as bringing Catholics and Protestants closer together). Is it a minority sport in the US? – I’ve no idea of its popularity and whether it’s accepted or frowned upon.

Yes, charismatic Catholic churches are a minority sport in the US. But so are Latin Masses, which I consider to be the other end of the spectrum. It’s more like a bell curve, with the majority of US parishes celebrating Mass with organs or guitars, in English, and without the spontaneous praying in tongues.

 

[PRmerger]

The MSNBC video is old but interesting – a lay woman as pastor, with a priest who has to “circuit ride” to perform Mass in multiple parishes.

Interesting video. The nun served as parish administrator. The point of the video was, “If only she could say Mass!”

Ordination is not a deputization of someone to perform an assignment, similar to conferring a medical degree to a man and then saying, “Go and memorize the Sacramentary and now you can say Mass 'cause you’ve got the right chromosome!”

In the course of discussions on the priesthood I often hear comments like, “A woman can be a counselor, right? She can manage a parish, right? She can have some good things to say while preaching, right? She can even do the same things a man does in order to confect the sacraments! So what’s the big deal?”

These comments, in my opinion, show an impoverished understanding of the priesthood.

The priesthood is not a job. It’s not what he does (for, to be sure, a woman can “do” all those things a priest does rather nicely!) It’s who he is. At his very essence.

And just like a woman can not be a father, a woman can not be a priest. It’s just not ontologically possible.

 

[inocente]

But is it because the Episcopal Church has married clergy? I skimmed the article and did not see any reference to that.

I don’t think it refers to that since it’s the norm for them, it just says the shortage is a lot less severe than the RCC. Basically it’s a forward planning document from their pensions department.

He does! He has the Best Spouse in the world, no?

Yes but that must sound like grin and bear it to an exhausted and isolated priest. “Circuit riding” to perform Mass in multiple parishes is expecting unnecessary sacrifices on the part of priests, and according to that Episcopalian report it’s a vicious circle anyway. The logistics need to be dealt with: more priests are needed, therefore more must be attracted, therefore something has to change. Passively ignoring it doesn’t solve anything.

 

[inocente]

So back to this question, which I find quite interesting.

One answer as to why it’s so common is because non-denominational churches typically consist of folks who have gotten fired up about a doctrinal issue from *another *church, left to start their own church, and of course, are on fire because of this rebellion.

Cute but it’s 500 years since Luther’s protest so it’s not exactly a big talking point these days.

Another reason is that, as we are the largest entity in the US (and, on the planet of course), there’s bound to be all sorts of Catholics–that meet all the adjectives: on fire, lukewarm, convert, revert, cradle, cafeteria, nominal…etc.

Does that answer the question though – the largest entity should find it easier to provide a friendly church for Keating’s Catholic, not more difficult.

*Yes, but I wasn’t talking about going to Church. I was talking about Truth. If one’s church teaches truth that one finds palatable and likeable, then it’s quite likely that one has found a church that meets one’s own image, and not God’s.

IOW, wouldn’t it be logical to think that what God has revealed is going to cause you to squirm a bit and cause you to re-examine your ideology?*

Not sure.

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. … For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. – Rom 8 NIV

Well, hallelujah!

Christ’s sacrifice and our redemption is initially hard to accept and there’s a difference here in how Catholics and Protestants deal with it, the whole faith vs. works thing, but in both cases the intended outcome is surely Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. – John 8:32

Another hallelujah!

Yes, charismatic Catholic churches are a minority sport in the US. But so are Latin Masses, which I consider to be the other end of the spectrum. It’s more like a bell curve, with the majority of US parishes celebrating Mass with organs or guitars, in English, and without the spontaneous praying in tongues.

Sounds very similar to what I’ve seen in Spain then.