God is not great

[sonofbarry]

God, it must be dull…
Forever and ever. And ever.
Just being there.

Here’s the theory as I understand it.
There is a god that has existed forever. He created everything from nothing and holds everything in existence by his will.
He demands obedience from his most sentient creation (humankind) and, furthermore, demands exclusive worship.
This god punishes and rewards, according to the obedience and worship he receives.

I posit that such a god is not great. There is nothing great, majestic or, indeed, holy about a being that has always been there. It is what it is. There are no criteria by which to judge (i.e. which god is the greatest or the most holy; how does this god perform against these standards?). He is just there.

Objectively speaking, God seems to be a powerful spirit that can create matter at will. That’s impressive, but only by human standards. We can’t do anything like that, so anyone who can is deemed ‘great’.
I have read, time and time again, that God’s act of creation was effortless, an act of sheer will. If so, then so what? A god used its will to conjure up something. If there was no effort involved, it’s not special.

Here’s the most telling point: God spent an eternity without creating anything, then, suddenly, created everything from nothing. We had, apparently, not figured in any grand scheme until just now, like a good idea thought up over coffee. So, we are commanded to worship a god that created us for no apparent reason other than that we are to be with him for all eternity. Yes, that’s it. The reward for worshipping the god is being able to be with the god forever, doing nothing else, ever again. For ever and ever.

How is being with God for all eternity something to be desired? Would we not be in the same quandary? – here we are, with all eternity to look at each other. Now… what to do… what to do…?

This leads me to the comfortable conclusion that any god (as summarised above) needs us. Without its creation, it has nothing.

Indeed, it seem that we are God’s reason for being.

 

[Gorgias]

Lots of misunderstandings about what Christian theology understands about God here…

There is a god that has existed forever.

He exists eternally. That is, timelessly. It’s not “forever” (as in, “from the Big Bang till now”), but without time. So, the idea we have about “boredom” doesn’t makes sense in this context.

He created everything from nothing and holds everything in existence by his will.

Yep.

He demands obedience from his most sentient creation (humankind)

He asks it. Not demands. If we decide not to assent, He doesn’t force us. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t consequences, of course, but it’s not a demand. (And, here are the consequences: if you don’t want to spend eternity with Him, ok… then you won’t. That’s it.)

and, furthermore, demands exclusive worship.

Umm… if he’s the only God going… then whom are you gonna worship?

This god punishes and rewards, according to the obedience and worship he receives.

Not really. If you choose Him, He accepts you. If you reject Him, He allows you to do so. Easy enough.

I posit that such a god is not great. There is nothing great, majestic or, indeed, holy about a being that has always been there. It is what it is.

‘Greatness’ is only a measure of time, or of change, then? That doesn’t make sense. (Unless, of course, you measure greatness as some sort of measure of how low one started and how high to which one achieves? If so, you’re not measuring ‘greatness’; you’re measuring ‘achievement’. Big difference.)

There are no criteria by which to judge (i.e. which god is the greatest or the most holy; how does this god perform against these standards?). He is just there.

The criteria is goodness, wisdom, presence. God is all-good, all-knowing, and all-present. In other words, He’s the pinnacle of the standards. It’s more than “just there”; He’s there, and perfectly!

Objectively speaking, God seems to be a powerful spirit that can create matter at will. That’s impressive, but only by human standards. We can’t do anything like that, so anyone who can is deemed ‘great’.

This is an important point: God is greater than His creation. Yes, that’s true.

I have read, time and time again, that God’s act of creation was effortless, an act of sheer will. If so, then so what? A god used its will to conjure up something. If there was no effort involved, it’s not special.

Ahh, but it’s unique among all beings. So… yeah: special.

Here’s the most telling point: God spent an eternity without creating anything, then, suddenly, created everything from nothing. We had, apparently, not figured in any grand scheme until just now, like a good idea thought up over coffee.

LOL! Non sequitur, much?

Your second statement doesn’t follow from the first. You’re making assertions about God’s plan that aren’t warranted. If we live within the context of space-time, and God exists outside of that context, then how do you judge God’s “grand scheme” as if it belongs within some notion of “proper time” or “pre-planning”?

So, we are commanded to worship a god that created us for no apparent reason other than that we are to be with him for all eternity. Yes, that’s it. The reward for worshipping the god is being able to be with the god forever, doing nothing else, ever again. For ever and ever.

“Worship” isn’t work that is rewarded. It is an expression of a relationship with God.

I don’t know about the “doing nothing else” part, either. That’s not part of what the Church teaches – rather, it’s a popular secular notion of what heaven is (and, it misunderstands what eternity is, too). After all, eternity is not “an unending sequence of time”.

How is being with God for all eternity something to be desired?

Let’s go all anthropomorphic, OK? In human terms, who do you want to spend time with? Isn’t it the highest quality people you know of? Those with personality, talents, charisma? Those with whom you have a relationship – friends, family? God is at the pinnacle of these considerations, too. You might not know him well right now, but that’s who He is. And that is precisely why spending eternity with Him is desirable.

This leads me to the comfortable conclusion that any god (as summarised above) needs us. Without its creation, it has nothing.

Hmm… not sure how your conclusion follows from your observations. Without us, God would still exist, perfectly, in eternity. Moreover, without us, He could just create again, couldn’t he? So, you’re not doing a good job of proving your “point”…

Indeed, it seem that we are God’s reason for being.

“Man created God”, eh? Yeah… nothing like trotting out the old red herrings…

 

[CHRISTINE77]

God, it must be dull…
Forever and ever. And ever.
Just being there.

Here’s the theory as I understand it.
There is a god that has existed forever. He created everything from nothing and holds everything in existence by his will.
He demands obedience from his most sentient creation (humankind) and, furthermore, demands exclusive worship.
This god punishes and rewards, according to the obedience and worship he receives.

I posit that such a god is not great. There is nothing great, majestic or, indeed, holy about a being that has always been there. It is what it is. There are no criteria by which to judge (i.e. which god is the greatest or the most holy; how does this god perform against these standards?). He is just there.

Objectively speaking, God seems to be a powerful spirit that can create matter at will. That’s impressive, but only by human standards. We can’t do anything like that, so anyone who can is deemed ‘great’.
I have read, time and time again, that God’s act of creation was effortless, an act of sheer will. If so, then so what? A god used its will to conjure up something. If there was no effort involved, it’s not special.

Here’s the most telling point: God spent an eternity without creating anything, then, suddenly, created everything from nothing. We had, apparently, not figured in any grand scheme until just now, like a good idea thought up over coffee. So, we are commanded to worship a god that created us for no apparent reason other than that we are to be with him for all eternity. Yes, that’s it. The reward for worshipping the god is being able to be with the god forever, doing nothing else, ever again. For ever and ever.

How is being with God for all eternity something to be desired? Would we not be in the same quandary? – here we are, with all eternity to look at each other. Now… what to do… what to do…?

This leads me to the comfortable conclusion that any god (as summarised above) needs us. Without its creation, it has nothing.

Indeed, it seem that we are God’s reason for being.

And vice versa. God is our reason for being. We are intertwined with him forever.

 

[Dorothy]

God is perfect love, and He loves each of us individually. And He respects our choices if we choose not to love Him.

Those in Heaven are in an ecstasy of love with God! They would not want to leave if they were offered the whole world and all power.

 

[pianistclare]

Lots of misunderstandings about what Christian theology understands about God here…

He exists eternally. That is, timelessly. It’s not “forever” (as in, “from the Big Bang till now”), but without time. So, the idea we have about “boredom” doesn’t makes sense in this context.

Yep.

He asks it. Not demands. If we decide not to assent, He doesn’t force us. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t consequences, of course, but it’s not a demand. (And, here are the consequences: if you don’t want to spend eternity with Him, ok… then you won’t. That’s it.)

Umm… if he’s the only God going… then whom are you gonna worship?

Not really. If you choose Him, He accepts you. If you reject Him, He allows you to do so. Easy enough.

‘Greatness’ is only a measure of time, or of change, then? That doesn’t make sense. (Unless, of course, you measure greatness as some sort of measure of how low one started and how high to which one achieves? If so, you’re not measuring ‘greatness’; you’re measuring ‘achievement’. Big difference.)

The criteria is goodness, wisdom, presence. God is all-good, all-knowing, and all-present. In other words, He’s the pinnacle of the standards. It’s more than “just there”; He’s there, and perfectly!

This is an important point: God is greater than His creation. Yes, that’s true.

Ahh, but it’s unique among all beings. So… yeah: special.

LOL! Non sequitur, much?

Your second statement doesn’t follow from the first. You’re making assertions about God’s plan that aren’t warranted. If we live within the context of space-time, and God exists outside of that context, then how do you judge God’s “grand scheme” as if it belongs within some notion of “proper time” or “pre-planning”?

“Worship” isn’t work that is rewarded. It is an expression of a relationship with God.

I don’t know about the “doing nothing else” part, either. That’s not part of what the Church teaches – rather, it’s a popular secular notion of what heaven is (and, it misunderstands what eternity is, too). After all, eternity is not “an unending sequence of time”.

Let’s go all anthropomorphic, OK? In human terms, who do you want to spend time with? Isn’t it the highest quality people you know of? Those with personality, talents, charisma? Those with whom you have a relationship – friends, family? God is at the pinnacle of these considerations, too. You might not know him well right now, but that’s who He is. And that is precisely why spending eternity with Him is desirable.

Hmm… not sure how your conclusion follows from your observations. Without us, God would still exist, perfectly, in eternity. Moreover, without us, He could just create again, couldn’t he? So, you’re not doing a good job of proving your “point”…



“Man created God”, eh? Yeah… nothing like trotting out the old red herrings…

Excellent answers. thank you Gorgias.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Sonofbarry, a great thought provoking post.
Georgias, a well considered and informative reply.

One of the other replies (Dorothy) said why would anyone want to leave the presence of God. However, isn’t that what Satan did and presumably his followers?

 

[Dorothy]

Sonofbarry, a great thought provoking post.
Georgias, a well considered and informative reply.

One of the other replies (Dorothy) said why would anyone want to leave the presence of God. However, isn’t that what Satan did and presumably his followers?

The fallen angels decided to use their free will to rebel.

 

[esieffe]

This sounds more like cocktail chatter than theology. The last time I heard a stream of thought like this, I had the munchies. :twocents:

You might change your mind as you get older. ← Not being sarcastic here.

 

[esieffe]

Sorry, if that last post was too harsh. Thread killer strikes again.

 

[Techno2000]

God, it must be dull…
Forever and ever. And ever.
Just being there.

Blessed Henry Suso (1295 - 1366) Dominican and German mystic

Now, then, ascend thou on high with Me. I will carry thee thither in spirit, and will give thee, after a rude similitude, a distant glimpse into the future. Behold, above the ninth heaven, which is incalculably more than a hundred thousand times larger than the entire earth, there is another heaven which is called Coelum Empyreum, the fiery heaven, so called, not from its being of fire, but from its immeasurably transparent brightness, which is immovable and unchangeable in its nature; and this is the glorious court in which the heavenly hosts dwell, where the morning star with the rest praises Me, and all the children of God rejoice.

There stand, encompassed with inconceivable light, the everlasting thrones, from which the evil spirits were hurled, in which the elect are seated. See how the delightful city shines with beaten gold, how it glitters with costly jewels, inlaid with precious stones, transparent as crystal, reflecting red roses, white lilies, and all living flowers. Now, look on the beautiful heavenly fields themselves. Lo! here all delights of summer, here sunny meads of May, here the very valley of bliss, here the glad moments are seen flitting from joy to joy; here harps and viols, here singing, and leaping, and dancing, hand in hand for ever! here the gratification of every desire, here pleasure without pain in everlasting security!

Now, look how the countless multitude drink to their hearts’ desire at the living fountains of gushing water; look how they feast their eyes on the pure, clear mirror of the revealed Divinity, in which all things are made plain and evident to them. Steal a little nearer, and mark how the sweet queen of the celestial kingdom, whom thou lovest with so much ardour, soars aloft in dignity and joy over the whole celestial host, reclining tenderly on her beloved, encircled with rose-flowers and lilies of the valley. See how her ravishing beauty fills with delight and wonder all the heavenly choirs.

Oh, now behold what will rejoice thy heart and soul, and see how the mother of compassion has turned her compassionate eyes towards thee and all sinners, and how powerfully she appeals to her beloved Son, and intercedes with Him. Now, turn round with the eyes of thy pure understanding, and behold also how the high seraphim and the love-abounding souls of the seraphic choirs blaze up perpetually in Me; how the bright company of the cherubim have a bright infusion and effusion of My eternal inconceivable light, how the high thrones and hosts, the lordships, powers, and dominations, regularly fulfill My beautiful and eternal order in the universality of nature.

Mark, too, how the third host of angelic spirits executes My high messages and decrees in the particular parts of the world; and see, how lovingly, how joyfully, and variously the multitude is marshalled, and what a beautiful sight it is! Turn next thy glance and see how My chosen disciples and best beloved friends sit in repose and honour upon their awful judgment-seats, how the martyrs glitter in their rose-coloured garments, the confessors shine in their vernal beauty, how refulgent the virgins appear in their angelic purity, how all the heavenly host overflows with divine sweetness! Oh, what a company! Oh, what a joyous band!

Blessed, thrice blessed is he who was born to dwell where they dwell! Lo, to this very fatherland I shall carry home from misery and tribulation, arrayed in all the richness of her rich morning gift, My beloved bride in My arms. I shall adorn her interiorly with the beautiful garment of the eternal light of that glory which will exalt her above all her natural powers. She will be clothed exteriorly with the glorified body, which is seven times brighter than the sun’s light, swift, subtle, and to suffering, impassive; then I shall put on her the crown of delight, and on the crown a golden garland.

catholictreasury.info/books/eternal_wisdom/ew13.php

 

[Techno2000]

God, it must be dull…
Forever and ever. And ever.
Just being there.

An Unpublished Manuscript on Purgatory

Excerpt :

I am going to try to make you understand, as far as you can upon earth, what Heaven is like. There are ever new feasts which succeed each other without interruption. There is happiness, always new and such, it would seem, as has never been enjoyed. It is a torrent of joy which flows unceasingly over the elect. Heaven is above all and beyond all — GOD: God loved, God relished, God delighted in; in one word, it is to be satisfied with God without ever being satisfied!

The more a soul loves God on earth, the higher she advances in perfection, the more she will love and understand God in Heaven.

Jesus is the true joy upon earth and the eternal felicity of Heaven.

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=6253

 

[joeybaggz]

Hmmmm… right out of the Christopher Hitchens playbook. Be careful or his estate might sue you for plagiarism.*

 

[freerf]

God, it must be dull…
Forever and ever. And ever.
Just being there.

Here’s the theory as I understand it.
There is a god that has existed forever. He created everything from nothing and holds everything in existence by his will.
He demands obedience from his most sentient creation (humankind) and, furthermore, demands exclusive worship.
This god punishes and rewards, according to the obedience and worship he receives.

I posit that such a god is not great. There is nothing great, majestic or, indeed, holy about a being that has always been there. It is what it is. There are no criteria by which to judge (i.e. which god is the greatest or the most holy; how does this god perform against these standards?). He is just there.

Objectively speaking, God seems to be a powerful spirit that can create matter at will. That’s impressive, but only by human standards. We can’t do anything like that, so anyone who can is deemed ‘great’.
I have read, time and time again, that God’s act of creation was effortless, an act of sheer will. If so, then so what? A god used its will to conjure up something. If there was no effort involved, it’s not special.

Here’s the most telling point: God spent an eternity without creating anything, then, suddenly, created everything from nothing. We had, apparently, not figured in any grand scheme until just now, like a good idea thought up over coffee. So, we are commanded to worship a god that created us for no apparent reason other than that we are to be with him for all eternity. Yes, that’s it. The reward for worshipping the god is being able to be with the god forever, doing nothing else, ever again. For ever and ever.

How is being with God for all eternity something to be desired? Would we not be in the same quandary? – here we are, with all eternity to look at each other. Now… what to do… what to do…?

This leads me to the comfortable conclusion that any god (as summarised above) needs us. Without its creation, it has nothing.

Indeed, it seem that we are God’s reason for being.

Consider that “time” is created. God is outside of time as we know it.
Consider that Love prompts us to create babies (those of us that do so knowingly) for no reason other than to be with them.
Consider that your perspective of God is that of a human with superpowers. Of course this is silly.
So, in a sense, you’re right: Your understanding of God makes Him appear human, and silly.
But more importantly, you’re wrong. It is not God that is silly but the scarecrow you’ve mad of him.
Time to delve a little deeper!

 

[quandy57]

Let’s see here…

Here’s the theory as I understand it.
There is a god that has existed forever. He created everything from nothing and holds everything in existence by his will.
He demands obedience from his most sentient creation (humankind) and, furthermore, demands exclusive worship.
This god punishes and rewards, according to the obedience and worship he receives.

He is outside of time, he is existence, all existence relies on his existence, all things exist because of him.
He does not demand obedience, he simply Loves. All that he tells us to do is for our good. If we rely on His existence, would it not help us to be in communion with Him?
He doesn’t necessarily punish. Think of Hell this way:
God loves you so much so at the end of your life He gives you whatever you love the most. You love golf the most so he gives you eternity to golf, at first it seems great, but eventually your love for golf fails you because it cannot sustain you therefore is Hell. If you love God the most, then God you shall receive, and God can sustain you therefore heaven.

I posit that such a god is not great. There is nothing great, majestic or, indeed, holy about a being that has always been there. It is what it is. There are no criteria by which to judge (i.e. which god is the greatest or the most holy; how does this god perform against these standards?). He is just there.

Objects have properties to greater or lesser extents.
If an object has a property to a lesser extent, then there exists some other object that has the property to the maximum possible degree.
So there is an entity that has all properties to the maximum possible degree.
this entity is God

Objectively speaking, God seems to be a powerful spirit that can create matter at will. That’s impressive, but only by human standards. We can’t do anything like that, so anyone who can is deemed ‘great’.
I have read, time and time again, that God’s act of creation was effortless, an act of sheer will. If so, then so what? A god used its will to conjure up something. If there was no effort involved, it’s not special.

what makes it special is not that He did it but the fact that he did not need to, so then why, what is the purpose of His creation, he needs nothings, he is fulfilled as it is, so why did he want creation. That is what makes it special

Here’s the most telling point: God spent an eternity without creating anything, then, suddenly, created everything from nothing. We had, apparently, not figured in any grand scheme until just now, like a good idea thought up over coffee. So, we are commanded to worship a god that created us for no apparent reason other than that we are to be with him for all eternity. Yes, that’s it. The reward for worshipping the god is being able to be with the god forever, doing nothing else, ever again. For ever and ever.

God is without time, he did not suddenly decide. We dont quite understand exactly how eternity works because our minds are based upon the time in the shape of a time line past present future, God is not in this timeline.

How is being with God for all eternity something to be desired? Would we not be in the same quandary? – here we are, with all eternity to look at each other. Now… what to do… what to do…?

God is love, why would you not want to be with love for all eternity??? Love is the onlything that can fulfill us, there is no what to do, for we are fulfilled when we enter heaven

This leads me to the comfortable conclusion that any god (as summarised above) needs us. Without its creation, it has nothing.

He doesn’t need us - we need Him, we have our little minds that only see part of the equation.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

God, it must be dull…
Forever and ever. And ever.
Just being there.

Here’s the theory as I understand it.
There is a god that has existed forever. He created everything from nothing and holds everything in existence by his will.
He demands obedience from his most sentient creation (humankind) and, furthermore, demands exclusive worship.
This god punishes and rewards, according to the obedience and worship he receives.

I posit that such a god is not great. There is nothing great, majestic or, indeed, holy about a being that has always been there. It is what it is. There are no criteria by which to judge (i.e. which god is the greatest or the most holy; how does this god perform against these standards?). He is just there.

Objectively speaking, God seems to be a powerful spirit that can create matter at will. That’s impressive, but only by human standards. We can’t do anything like that, so anyone who can is deemed ‘great’.
I have read, time and time again, that God’s act of creation was effortless, an act of sheer will. If so, then so what? A god used its will to conjure up something. If there was no effort involved, it’s not special.

Here’s the most telling point: God spent an eternity without creating anything, then, suddenly, created everything from nothing. We had, apparently, not figured in any grand scheme until just now, like a good idea thought up over coffee. So, we are commanded to worship a god that created us for no apparent reason other than that we are to be with him for all eternity. Yes, that’s it. The reward for worshipping the god is being able to be with the god forever, doing nothing else, ever again. For ever and ever.

How is being with God for all eternity something to be desired? Would we not be in the same quandary? – here we are, with all eternity to look at each other. Now… what to do… what to do…?

This leads me to the comfortable conclusion that any god (as summarised above) needs us. Without its creation, it has nothing.

Indeed, it seem that we are God’s reason for being.

The great Christopher Hitchens wrote a book with the title of this thread and died four years later.

Soon he will be forgotten. God will not.

So who is really the Great One?

 

[Crown_of_Stars]

If God were all puffed up about Himself, and thought of us as only His little servants, He never would have come to earth in the form of a Man (Jesus), and wouldn’t have willingly gone through all He went through, the rejection, humiliation, suffering. He didn’t have to go through any of it. And He had the power to make us however He wanted us to be, yet He chose to give us free will, a mind and heart of our own, so that, through His graces, we would turn to Him on our own.

 

[Dorothy]

If God were all puffed up about Himself, and thought of us as only His little servants, He never would have come to earth in the form of a Man (Jesus), and wouldn’t have willingly gone through all He went through, the rejection, humiliation, suffering. He didn’t have to go through any of it. And He had the power to make us however He wanted us to be, yet He chose to give us free will, a mind and heart of our own, so that, through His graces, we would turn to Him on our own.

Amen!

 

[adamhovey1988]

This seems familiar…

 

[mikekle]

The fallen angels decided to use their free will to rebel.

Yes and they are/ will be punished for this…the same is true for all of us, if we do not make the ‘right’ choice, we will be punished and suffer for eternity for it. Whats the point of free will if you are punished for exercising it?

 

[Fiasco]

Yes and they are/ will be punished for this…the same is true for all of us, if we do not make the ‘right’ choice, we will be punished and suffer for eternity for it. Whats the point of free will if you are punished for exercising it?

God gives us opportunities to change by prompting us. If we continue to reject His promptings, it’s ultimately our fault if we land in hell: if we choose self over Him.

He doesn’t will anyone to be lost, but He doesn’t will to be worshiped and loved by ants or zombies or robots or some other mindless entities.

So: free will is a gift…to be used wisely.