God is not present in Hell

[Greg27]

This is in response to the Purgatory Thread which got derail to the subject of hell.

How can His Presence be separate from His knowledge (awareness)?

A poster wrote:

By this he implies that God is in hell. Saint Isaac’s statement doesn’t bare any truth that the Catholic teaches.

Let me quote what the Catechism has to say about God and Hell.

In otherwords, there is no God in Hell. To claim that he is, is heresy.

In my understanding, St Isaac is a saint in the Eastern Church. Eastern Orthodoxy regards hell somewhat differently than Latin tradition has. Latins, following St Augustine, viewed hell in terms of juridicial categories, i.e. a place of eternal punishment prepared for sinners because God’s perfect justice demands it. Eastern Christians see hell more as a defect in human beautitude whereby a person freely chooses to not become what God wants them to become, i.e. divinised by theosis into the glory of God.

The differences in eschatological thinking mean at the end of time Latins tended to see the judgement as when God comes and sorts humanity into the just and unjust, to satisfy his requirement for perfect holiness and justice by casting out from his prescence all that is unholy and sinful. On the other hand, for Easterns, while this picture is true, the end for all of creation is to be transfigured in such a way God becomes ‘all in all’ and all places, including hell, are illumined by the prescence of God. In both cases hell becomes a final place of eternal punishment and suffering, in the Latin case from the punishing separation of God for all eternity, and in the Eastern case of God’s prescence confronting and tormenting those who have chosen to turn for all eternity from that prescence.

I think both views capture important truths about hell which we should try and integrate rather than adopting a black and white view where one is totally right and the other is wrong. I sympathize with the Orthodox a lot in the extent we should be careful in overly-rationalising eschatological mysteries using logic and reason, but at the same time logic and reason, applied appropriately, can help us understand these mysteries with greater clarity.

In relation to this question, the classic Catholic teaching from St Thomas as I understand is that demons and those in hell are deprived of the vision of God, but God’s omniprescence means that even in hell, the damned and demons are still held in existence by God’s prescence and power. God then is in hell, not in terms of the grace of the beatific vision, but in terms that his power and prescence maintains those in hell in existence. See St Thomas’s discussions on this in the Summa.

 

[Renton405]

Jesus went to the Abode of the Dead, or Abraham’s Bosom, where the souls awaiting for the Messiah waited for him. It is not Hell, the place of the eternal lasting damn, where demons, and unrepentent sinners. The translation is Hades…

What I’m speaking about is Hell, where Satan and his angels dwell. God is not there.

Two different places.

Do you know why they canonized him a saint then, since he spoke this heresy?

 

[Renton405]

So then when satan wanders the earth does God step aside?? How does your theology work concerning God’s omnipresence and satan?? I thought that God allowed satan’s existence and not the other way around. Satan is the ruler of the earth because man prefers the darkness but there is nowhere that the Light does not exist. During an eclipse the sun does not leave…teachccd

Free Will…

Earth is a sinful place so Satan can roam around there because of sin… but since there is no sin in heaven Satan cannot enter(heaven)…Also God gave the angels free will to do what they want(they just can’t enter heaven because of their choice that they made)

Another reason why Satan roams the earth seekin the ruin of souls is because of his jealousness of the salvation of the race of Adam(through Christ). Satan and the fallen angels never had the second chance we humans do with Christ…so he will try to do whatever he can to get people to turn away from Salvation and come to his abode…

Without true Justice(people going to hell) there is no true love…otherwise we would be walking around with Hitler and Pro-Abortionists in heaven…

 

[Renton405]

Do you know why they canonized him a saint then, since he spoke this heresy?

P.S.- nevermind… I just saw Gregs post

So technically it would be hard to define St. issacs comment as truely a heresy then correct?

A defect in Beatitude seems to be kinda related to St. Augustines theology on hell… Dying in a state of sin could be catagorized as a defect…But then again what would it be a defect of? Since the person dosen’t have the grace from Christ in the first place…

 

[teachccd]

In relation to this question, the classic Catholic teaching from St Thomas as I understand is that demons and those in hell are deprived of the vision of God, but God’s omniprescence means that even in hell, the damned and demons are still held in existence by God’s prescence and power. God then is in hell, not in terms of the grace of the beatific vision, but in terms that his power and prescence maintains those in hell in existence. See St Thomas’s discussions on this in the Summa.

Precisely my position!!!

 

[teachccd]

Free Will…

Earth is a sinful place so Satan can roam around there because of sin… but since there is no sin in heaven Satan cannot enter(heaven)…Also God gave the angels free will to do what they want(they just can’t enter heaven because of their choice that they made)

Another reason why Satan roams the earth seekin the ruin of souls is because of his jealousness of the salvation of the race of Adam(through Christ). Satan and the fallen angels never had the second chance we humans do with Christ…so he will try to do whatever he can to get people to turn away from Salvation and come to his abode…

Without true Justice(people going to hell) there is no true love…otherwise we would be walking around with Hitler and Pro-Abortionists in heaven…

You say that satan cannot enter heaven as though heaven has boundaries and is a distinct “place”. So then when we are at Mass are we not in heaven on earth?? And satan is allowed there. It is the “allowing” that is important to understand. Once we are in the Beatific Vision, satan is no longer allowed to be in our view. He can no longer interact with us.

How do we acknowledge God’s omnipresence if we recognize a “place” where He is not?? Heaven is how God forever shows Himself to us and hell is how God allows us to continue in our separation with Him. He allows us to only view satan and his demons. That is not to say God is not there…as Greg 27 noted quoting St. Thomas Aquinas. Yes, Hiltler and Pro-Abortionists may still be around but God will not allow them to interact with those in heaven. This is only apprehended knowledge concerning heaven because neither you, me or anyone else really knows…God Bless…teachccd

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi
Everything in this Universe, physical or spiritual, is created by GodAllahYHWH, so He has not to be in heaven or hell, He is known by us by His attributes; as he can listen without ears, or he can see without eyes , so he knows everything without being there by His attributes that are absolute.
Thanks

 

[dylanschrader]

Heaven and Hell are not so much locations as they are states of being.

God doesn’t change; we change.

As an analogy, here on earth, God is still present in the soul which is in a state of mortal sin, but his presence is as the creator who maintains the existence of his creature. Conversely, the soul in the state of grace has God’s indwelling, that is, God is “at home” in the soul, making it supernaturally alive.

When speaking of spirits, we normally speak of their presence as being “where they act.” There are different ways that God acts and thus different ways in which he is present.

God is present in the persons in Hell insofar as he acts to maintain their existence. This is a natural presence and nothing more. Thus, the soul is still eternally separate from God because it lacks the supernatural presence of God which was its purpose for existing.

 

[teachccd]

Heaven and Hell are not so much locations as they are states of being.

God doesn’t change; we change.

As an analogy, here on earth, God is still present in the soul which is in a state of mortal sin, but his presence is as the creator who maintains the existence of his creature. Conversely, the soul in the state of grace has God’s indwelling, that is, God is “at home” in the soul, making it supernaturally alive.

When speaking of spirits, we normally speak of their presence as being “where they act.” There are different ways that God acts and thus different ways in which he is present.

God is present in the persons in Hell insofar as he acts to maintain their existence. This is a natural presence and nothing more. Thus, the soul is still eternally separate from God because it lacks the supernatural presence of God which was its purpose for existing.

EXACTLY!!! Of course that is one reporter’s opinion. Remember, “Eye has not seen…” St. Paul

 

[Pooch]

God is omnipresent but he is not in hell period. It’s not mention in the Bible, not mentioned in Writings of the ECF, nor is it mention in the Vatican Document.

Separated from God is separated. Cut off completely. So therefore, God is not in Hell. He is in Heaven.

I don’t think Jesus is sitting on the Right Hand of God, in hell. Even Stephen said, He saw the Heavens open and saw the Son of God sitting at the Right Hand of God.

Bingo… God is in Heaven not hell.

If you believe that God is not in hell, then He is not omnipresent! You are contradicting yourself.

Premise1: Omnipresent means being present in every place at all times.
Premise2: Hell is a Place
Premise3: God is not in Hell
Conclusion: God is not omnipresent.

When you say omnipresent, a being is in 100% of space. If 1% of space is not occupied by this being, then He is not omnipresent–even if it is 99%.

 

[Leopard]

I would put it that there is no place and no creature that is not present to God, including Hell and all those who may have condemned themselves there, even though God may not manifest His presence there to them.

 

[Pooch]

I would put it that there is no place and no creature that is not present to God, including Hell and all those who may have condemned themselves there, even though God may not manifest His presence there to them.

I understand and I partly agree with what you have said. However, what we are talking about is God’s omnipresence.
I have no questions that “no place and no creature” is not present to God.

But how about God? Is He in every place and every creature? By the way, first question to you: do you believe that God is omnipresent? Second question: do you believe that God is in hell?

If your answer to the second question is yes because of your reason that “God may not manifest His presence there to them but He is still there”, I may agree because God’s grace is not there. right?

 

[KindredSoul]

I know that a huge portion of this source is symbolic, but doesn’t the book of the Revelation speak of the wicked being tormented “In the presence of the Lamb”? If I had my Bible right on hand I’d cite it…

If that particular part of the book isn’t symbolic (and we know at least the basic premise of the lake of fire, Hell, isn’t merely symbolic) then that must require some sort of presence, right? I imagine that it will not be an intimate presence, but a presence none-the-less. Unless this is taken to mean something totally different. Also, I think we must remember: God as Divine is immune to torment. Even God the Son took on a complete Human Nature before suffering the Passion. So if somehow God’s presence exists in Hell, it’s no defect in His glory; He’s not suffering there, nor marred by its torments in any way.

If God’s presence exists in Hell (I’m not quite sure what firm stance to take on the issue) this doesn’t negate the eternal separation of sinners from Him…to make a rather imperfect but meaningful analogy, you could be in the same room with someone who is giving you the cold shoulder, and you might as well be a million miles away; that’s a separation as real and painful as (if not more than) any other.

Again, I don’t know for sure what to make of it…but the possibility is seemingly open, and that verse from Revelation along with God’s omnipresence seem to imply at least the possibility, of course in such a way as not to contradict what the Church teaches about the eternal separation…

Perhaps someone should ask one of the official Apologists about this matter…

 

[Pooch]

I imagine that it will not be an intimate presence, but a presence none-the-less

Hmm…I think I have to agree with this one. After all, God is a consuming fire, right?(Hebrews 12:29) hehehe…

 

[Leopard]

I understand and I partly agree with what you have said. However, what we are talking about is God’s omnipresence.
I have no questions that “no place and no creature” is not present to God.

But how about God? Is He in every place and every creature? By the way, first question to you: do you believe that God is omnipresent? Second question: do you believe that God is in hell?

If your answer to the second question is yes because of your reason that “God may not manifest His presence there to them but He is still there”, I may agree because God’s grace is not there. right?

First answer: yes.

Second answer: yes, but not in the same manner that he is present in Heaven or in the rest of creation.

I don’t know if I would agree that God’s Grace is not present in Hell. Perhaps it is, but the damned’s obstinate refusal to accept His Grace in their lifetimes resulting in their eternal inability to receive it afterward may be a significant part of their pains. But that last thought is just a philosophical speculation.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

In my understanding, St Isaac is a saint in the Eastern Church. Eastern Orthodoxy regards hell somewhat differently than Latin tradition has. Latins, following St Augustine, viewed hell in terms of juridicial categories, i.e. a place of eternal punishment prepared for sinners because God’s perfect justice demands it. Eastern Christians see hell more as a defect in human beautitude whereby a person freely chooses to not become what God wants them to become, i.e. divinised by theosis into the glory of God.

The differences in eschatological thinking mean at the end of time Latins tended to see the judgement as when God comes and sorts humanity into the just and unjust, to satisfy his requirement for perfect holiness and justice by casting out from his prescence all that is unholy and sinful. On the other hand, for Easterns, while this picture is true, the end for all of creation is to be transfigured in such a way God becomes ‘all in all’ and all places, including hell, are illumined by the prescence of God. In both cases hell becomes a final place of eternal punishment and suffering, in the Latin case from the punishing separation of God for all eternity, and in the Eastern case of God’s prescence confronting and tormenting those who have chosen to turn for all eternity from that prescence.

I think both views capture important truths about hell which we should try and integrate rather than adopting a black and white view where one is totally right and the other is wrong. I sympathize with the Orthodox a lot in the extent we should be careful in overly-rationalising eschatological mysteries using logic and reason, but at the same time logic and reason, applied appropriately, can help us understand these mysteries with greater clarity.

I agree with you that integrating these perspectives would probably create a more complete picture.

Does the Catholic Church officially reject the Orthodox position on this? Seeing as you said the Catholic Church’s perception of the “separation” is that separation exists for the sinners, in that they do not have the beatific vision, but does not exist for God, the positions of the Catholic Church and the Orthodox look like they could both be true simultaneously. So I’m very curious what the Catholic Church’s official position on the Orthodox position is, or do the Catholics have one?

I have another question. Seeing as God is omniscient, capable of fully knowing everything that is going on, he’d know how horribly the people in hell are suffering every second of their time in hell. So does that mean that God too is experiencing eternal torment with all of the sinners? He said in the New Testament that whenever anyone gives to the poor, clothes the naked, or does anything positive for anyone, that is doing it to him, and he said the same thing of sinful acts, that they were all done to him. I suspect that this is because of his knowledge. His knowledge of what it is like for the recipient of mistreatment or good treatment means that in effect what happens just as much happens to him as it does to the person who actually experiences it, since God knows the experience as much as the experiencer does.

If God knows everything, therefore, it seems that he would also know the eternal torments of hell intimately and experientially as well, seeing as he knows fully the perspective of those in agony there.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

I know that a huge portion of this source is symbolic, but doesn’t the book of the Revelation speak of the wicked being tormented “In the presence of the Lamb”? If I had my Bible right on hand I’d cite it…

If that particular part of the book isn’t symbolic (and we know at least the basic premise of the lake of fire, Hell, isn’t merely symbolic) then that must require some sort of presence, right? I imagine that it will not be an intimate presence, but a presence none-the-less. Unless this is taken to mean something totally different. Also, I think we must remember: God as Divine is immune to torment. Even God the Son took on a complete Human Nature before suffering the Passion. So if somehow God’s presence exists in Hell, it’s no defect in His glory; He’s not suffering there, nor marred by its torments in any way.

If God’s presence exists in Hell (I’m not quite sure what firm stance to take on the issue) this doesn’t negate the eternal separation of sinners from Him…to make a rather imperfect but meaningful analogy, you could be in the same room with someone who is giving you the cold shoulder, and you might as well be a million miles away; that’s a separation as real and painful as (if not more than) any other.

Again, I don’t know for sure what to make of it…but the possibility is seemingly open, and that verse from Revelation along with God’s omnipresence seem to imply at least the possibility, of course in such a way as not to contradict what the Church teaches about the eternal separation…

Perhaps someone should ask one of the official Apologists about this matter…

Very good points you raise there, IMO.

The scripture you were looking for is Revelation 14:10-11.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

I have one more question. How explicit is Catholicism on what the torments of hell will be?

Because I’ve been thinking, people here on Earth who are outside of God’s kingdom in spirit engage in all kinds of unclean acts and reap natural judgments from their actions. They engage in all kinds of sins that the Bible condemns, and their treatment of other people can sometimes become horrendous. It says in the scripture that heaven is in the hearts of men, and there is a sense in which we can certainly see the truth of that in this world. When people are full of God’s love, knowing them is like encountering a piece of heaven. Being in a place full of such people feels incredibly blessed and lovely. On the other hand, some people can become very twisted, ruthless and wicked. Being around them, I’d think, would be like being in the presence of hell and the kinds of things such people do to one another or to anyone are behaviors one would expect from hell. Perhaps hell is in the hearts of some men, just as heaven is in the hearts of others?

If this is so, then after death might the judgments of hell be somewhat like the judgments on Earth? Would hell be a place of torture because the wicked people in it are allowed to live their lives and do so torturing one another and doing all manner of fiendish things to one another because they hate God and all he stands for? Would they bring their own judgments on their own heads in that way, creating the fires and tortures themselves, as they do on Earth?

Or is that idea very out of touch with Catholicism? Are there dogmas and explanations of hell in Catholicism that contradict this idea of the torture?

If heaven and hell were two separate nations established on Earth, I think we would see some of the same results as are described in the scriptures for the afterlife. The heaven kingdom might be like a great city, or very highly developed, sophisticated and blessed partly because the people in it are all working together and can make it good and wonderful. They have no disharmony and would be fully productive (I assume saints in heaven are somehow productive, even though not in the same sense as on Earth). They might make great leaps in technology and in economics because of their unity and accord. They would give to one another freely and live in blessed love and God’s light and grace. They would be filled with the Holy Spirit and so everything they did would be blessed (I’m assuming real heaven, no sinful nature).

On the other hand, the people in the other kingdom would have wholly rejected God and so would pursue evil fully. There would be no harmony amongst them. They would torture one another, brutalize one another, commit hideous acts with one another that would further destroy one another, do all kinds of perversions and villainy that would result in the destruction of their civilization very swiftly, but since they would persist in the same forms of behavior and in the same ideology, their nation would sink into endless misery and pretty much every kind of woe imaginable.

How does this picture strike you, Greg27? I am curious whether or not Catholic teaching declares it to be false.

 

[sodak]

I have also read the quote where if the gates of hell were opened, no one would leave. I’m not sure I agree with that.

Suppose someone dies with just one mortal sin. After spending time in hell, would there not be a chance of regret? I would think that lots of people in hell would flee, given the chance.

 

[DanteAlighieri]

God is omnipresent but he is not in hell period. It’s not mention in the Bible, not mentioned in Writings of the ECF, nor is it mention in the Vatican Document.

Separated from God is separated. Cut off completely. So therefore, God is not in Hell. He is in Heaven.

I don’t think Jesus is sitting on the Right Hand of God, in hell. Even Stephen said, He saw the Heavens open and saw the Son of God sitting at the Right Hand of God.

Bingo… God is in Heaven not hell.

The fact that this issue is not mentioned in the Bible is insufficient to support your claim.

The fact that the ECF did not address this issue is insufficient to support your claim.

The fact that the Catechism does not address this issue is insufficient to support your claim.

Since you are emphatically insisting that God is not present in hell, you must provide sources that support your claim – not sources which do not address it.

Something to keep in mind: very often, when the Church is silent on an issue, it’s because it ultimately does not matter with regard to our salvation.

Furthermore, you continually refer to God being “in” heaven and hell as though they were different rooms; that one must physically depart one place to be physically in the other. The state of existence one experiences in heaven and in hell (not to mention purgatory) is completely beyond our comprehension; thus, when we speak of experiencing them, we talk of “going to” or “being in”.

God is not bound by spatial terminology, and you are not looking at the broader implications of the responses you’ve received.

Peace,
Dante