God is severe?

[BobCatholic]

I not really sure where you are going here. Do you find it unbelievable that Lucifer could assume visible form?

I believe he took visible form. Scripture said he appeared as a serpent.

My point is that Adam and Eve were not created perfect. They were lacking in something and that lack was a contributing factor to the fall.

Even if the imperfection was something like “I did not know a certain fact” - it is still an imperfection.

Since I’m not temporally held responsible for Lucifer’s fall, but for Adam and Eve’s fall, I really don’t care about if lucifer was perfect or not. But I am jealous of the fact that the Angels only had one test. We have a long suffering-filled lifetime of tests.

The fact of the matter is that Eve was created perfect. She was perfectly wise.

Part of wisdom is being able to discern whether someone is lying or not. She couldn’t tell that the serpent was being deceptive, so either she was unwise, stupid or naive.

And if she knew the snake WAS being deceptive and purposely believed him, that’s beyond stupid and could qualify as insanity.

If a snake started talking to me, I’d grab a baseball bat and pound it into the ground.

In other words, if a blithering idiot like me can see through this nonsense that the snake was spewing, how could Adam and Eve not have?

Our Human Nature has been damaged by the Fall.

And thus it is HARDER to make God happy than it was for Adam and Eve. All they were responsible for was obeying one commandment. And we, though weaker, are held responsible for obeying at least 10!

More weakness. More responsibility.

Our Free Will remains intact.

Our free will is reduced by imperfection.

Part of having free will is having full information. Even moral theology assigns no culpability if someone didn’t know something! But yet here we are, being held TEMPORALLY responsible as if our free will were truly intact.

Imagine this scenario.

A female friend asks you for a ride to the doctor’s office. You take her to the doctor’s office, thinking you are doing something good. She doesn’t say what the appointment is for exactly, just said she has to go in for a checkup. (she lied to you) Now suppose that doctor’s office was really an abortion clinic (the building was nondescript, and there was nothing saying it was an abortion clinic) and you’ve aided and abetted an abortion. This is a sin. But yet you are not held morally culpable because you did not know.

Did you have free will? Or was the free will compromised to the point where culpability was gone due to the lack of information? Had you known the facts fully, your decision would have been different.

The Battle is won and we have all the Grace we will ever need (via the Sacraments) to be perfectly happy in this broken life

We are not meant to be happy in this life. We are meant to carry the cross. This place is not called the valley of tears for no reason. We are meant to be happy in the afterlife, if we make the right choices by cooperating with God’s grace.

and to make it to Heaven.

Only if we are able to cooperate with the grace. God’s grace has two parts: spiritual and temporal. And in the temporal arena I am lacking.

Sounds like she was tempted. Where do you get “fear” from?

Remember what I quoted from the spiritual writer?

But because I have written this in another place, I will not enlarge here upon the violence and inhumanity of this temptation

The term “violence and inhumanity” screams very loudly it was something fearful.

When I see the words “violence and inhumanity” I don’t think cuddly teddy bears. I don’t have an image of baby kittens or puppies.

Where do you get this “50 foot tall theory” from?

I’ve read theories about how the fall took place, one of them was that the serpent was huge and basically intimidated these two into falling. Another was that Adam and Eve were stupid. Another was they were naive. Lots of theories abound.

I think you might find it difficult to resist his advances. After all, he is not called the “angel of light” for nothing.

I agree. I am far less perfect than Adam and Eve and I hate it that it is difficult to resist the devil.

 

[HansTrappist]

I believe he took visible form. Scripture said he appeared as a serpent.

My point is that Adam and Eve were not created perfect. They were lacking in something and that lack was a contributing factor to the fall.

What were they “lacking” in?

Of course they were created perfect. So was the rest of the universe before the Fall. Everything was in perfect harmony. To say otherwise contradicts the Revealed Word of God in Sacred Scripture: “God saw all he had made, and indeed it was very good.” (Genesis 1:31). I’ll take God’s word over the opinions and protestations of men.

Since I’m not temporally held responsible for Lucifer’s fall, but for Adam and Eve’s fall, I really don’t care about if lucifer was perfect or not. But I am jealous of the fact that the Angels only had one test. We have a long suffering-filled lifetime of tests.

Yes, the angels only had one test. And their response to it was irrevocable.

We, on the other hand and like our first parents, have sufficient grace to resist temptation. If we fall it is due to our own willful disobedience, not due to any defect in the original state of Creation or the fault of God. Unlike the angles, God gives us many chances to honor the clear line between Creator and creature. The Catechism highlights this fact by saying:

“God attached so much importance to his salvation that he did not spare his own Son for the sake of man. Nor does he ever cease to work, trying every possible means, until he has raised man up to himself and made him sit at his right hand.” (CCC 358)

Satan keeps pulling our eyes down to mere matter. Satan is a reductionist, a materialist. Satan would like for us to worship the dust that we were formed from rather than worship and obey the one who created the dust.

Part of wisdom is being able to discern whether someone is lying or not. She couldn’t tell that the serpent was being deceptive, so either she was unwise, stupid or naive.

And if she knew the snake WAS being deceptive and purposely believed him, that’s beyond stupid and could qualify as insanity.

No, she wasn’t unwise, stupid, naive or insane.

She was disobedient.

And thus it is HARDER to make God happy than it was for Adam and Eve. All they were responsible for was obeying one commandment. And we, though weaker, are held responsible for obeying at least 10!

More weakness. More responsibility.

Let’s review what the Catechism says on this point:

374 The first man was not only created good, but was also established in friendship with his Creator** and in harmony with himself and with the creation** around him, in a state that would be surpassed only by the glory of the new creation in Christ.

375 The Church, interpreting the symbolism of biblical language in an authentic way, in the light of the New Testament and Tradition, teaches that our first parents, Adam and Eve, were constituted in an original “state of holiness and justice”. This grace of original holiness was “to share in. . .divine life”.

376 By the radiance of this grace all dimensions of man’s life were confirmed. As long as he remained in the divine intimacy, man would not have to suffer or die. The inner harmony of the human person, the harmony between man and woman, and finally the harmony between the first couple and all creation, comprised the state called “original justice”.

377 The “mastery” over the world that God offered man from the beginning was realized above all within man himself: mastery of self.** the first man was unimpaired and ordered in his whole being** because he was free from the triple concupiscence that subjugates him to the pleasures of the senses, covetousness for earthly goods, and self-assertion, contrary to the** dictates of reason**.

379 This** entire harmony** of original justice, foreseen for man in God’s plan, will be lost by the sin of our first parents.

In their original state, Adam and Even were aware of the Law without a need for it to be put into writing. They were immortal. They were in perfect harmony with their Creator and creation. Yet obedience was still necessary. Obedience is the demarcation between Creator and creature.

Their punishment was Just

 

[HansTrappist]

Our free will is reduced by imperfection.

Part of having free will is having full information. Even moral theology assigns no culpability if someone didn’t know something! But yet here we are, being held TEMPORALLY responsible as if our free will were truly intact.

Imagine this scenario.

A female friend asks you for a ride to the doctor’s office. You take her to the doctor’s office, thinking you are doing something good. She doesn’t say what the appointment is for exactly, just said she has to go in for a checkup. (she lied to you) Now suppose that doctor’s office was really an abortion clinic (the building was nondescript, and there was nothing saying it was an abortion clinic) and you’ve aided and abetted an abortion. This is a sin. But yet you are not held morally culpable because you did not know.

Did you have free will? Or was the free will compromised to the point where culpability was gone due to the lack of information? Had you known the facts fully, your decision would have been different.

You are conflating Free Will with culpability.

Our Free Will remains intact before, during and after the Fall.

Culpability on the other hand, can be diminished depending on the the situation.

We are not meant to be happy in this life. We are meant to carry the cross. This place is not called the valley of tears for no reason. We are meant to be happy in the afterlife, if we make the right choices by cooperating with God’s grace.

We are meant to be happy in this life and the next.

Perhaps you are conflating happiness with pleasure and the absence of pain.

I agree. I am far less perfect than Adam and Eve and I hate it that it is difficult to resist the devil.

Temptation can be difficult. But we have all the weapons we need to combat the Devil. If we sin it is our own fault, and we must be willing to accept any pain and suffering that results.

 

[BobCatholic]

What were they “lacking” in?

Wisdom. Courage. Knowledge. And other things.

Of course they were created perfect. So was the rest of the universe before the Fall. Everything was in perfect harmony. To say otherwise contradicts the Revealed Word of God in Sacred Scripture: “God saw all he had made, and indeed it was very good.” (Genesis 1:31). I’ll take God’s word over the opinions and protestations of men.

Something can be created very good yet imperfect. My autistic son, for example. “Very good” does not mean “perfect” - it means “very good”

Yes, the angels only had one test. And their response to it was irrevocable.

Correct. Their test involved no suffering. Ours does.

Nor does he ever cease to work, trying every possible means, until he has raised man up to himself and made him sit at his right hand." (CCC 358)

Not all means. I can see two major means missing.

Stop the suffering.
Stop holding us temporally responsible for the sins of Adam and eve.

No, she wasn’t unwise, stupid, naive or insane.

I disagree.

376 By the radiance of this grace all dimensions of man’s life were confirmed. As long as he remained in the divine intimacy, man would not have to suffer or die. The inner harmony of the human person, the harmony between man and woman, and finally the harmony between the first couple and all creation, comprised the state called “original justice”.

And that no longer is the case. Even with God’s grace, we will suffer and die. God’s grace is insufficient to prevent suffering.

Their punishment was Just

Yes.

Ours is not. When we are temporally held responsible for their sin that is not just.

 

[BobCatholic]

You are conflating Free Will with culpability.

Our Free Will remains intact before, during and after the Fall.

Culpability on the other hand, can be diminished depending on the the situation.

Nope.

Read the Catechism.

1735 says the culpability part. But you forgot to go further. 1736 says:
Every act directly willed is imputable to its author

So if one’s culpability is reduced, so is one’s will. One’s free will cannot be higher than one’s culpability.

We are meant to be happy in this life and the next.

If we are meant to be happy, then someone owes me an explanation.

Perhaps you are conflating happiness with pleasure and the absence of pain.

I don’t care about pleasure. I care about absence of pain. How many times do I have to keep getting hit? C’mon, even a bad kid’s spanking eventually stops! I want mercy, I beg for mercy. Mercy means the suffering stops.

 

[HansTrappist]

Wisdom. Courage. Knowledge. And other things.

As much as I like you Bob, I think I am going to have to take God’s Word on this point.

Correct. Their test involved no suffering. Ours does.

Suffering and death are the consequences of Sin. It did not have to be this way but the wages of sin is death.

The remedy for the effects of Original Sin is Baptism.

To the extent that God permits additional suffering it is either the just reward of the sinner or it is meant to purify us. The proper response to the suffering and trials of this life is obedience and submission to the will of God. We should unite our sufferings to Christ’s offering of Himself to the Eternal Father in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. By doing so we participate in Redemption and the salvation of souls.

I often wondered what would happen if: A. Everyone was Baptized and in full communion with Christ’s Body and B. Everyone was living in the state of grace?

Ours is not. When we are temporally held responsible for their sin that is not just.

It is Just. God has said so.

 

[BobCatholic]

As much as I like you Bob, I think I am going to have to take God’s Word on this point.

I did too I just don’t interpret “very good” as “perfect” because that word is not there in God’s word. And not only that the Cathechism doesn’t say anything about Adam and Eve being created perfect either. It says they were created good and holy. Not perfect.

So yeah, both Church and Scripture line up perfectly on this.

The remedy for the effects of Original Sin is Baptism.

The spiritual ones, yes.

The temporal ones, no. We suffer. We don’t live in the Garden of Eden. Two temporal punishments that are imposed by God on us for the sin of Adam and Eve.

To the extent that God permits additional suffering it is either the just reward of the sinner or it is meant to purify us.

And God cannot purify us any other way? Omnipotence…

A human physician will at least give anesthesia when doing the operation. God, who is the BEST PHYSICIAN IN THE UNIVERSE…does not.

It is Just. God has said so.

How is it just to punish someone for the sins of their ancestors? Violates two key scripture verses.

[BIBLEDRB]Deuteronomy 24:16 [/BIBLEDRB]

and

[BIBLEDRB]Ezekiel 18:20[/BIBLEDRB]

I reconciled this by admitting that God said he was Love, and I believe that. He didn’t say He was Justice. He said He was Love. And sometimes love is unjust. When it comes to Christ dying for us and we being saved - that is unjust - in our favor but also VERY LOVING. The temporal punishment we receive for Adam and Eve’s sin is also unjust and not in our favor. I’m not sure it is loving.

 

[HansTrappist]

And God cannot purify us any other way? Omnipotence…

A human physician will at least give anesthesia when doing the operation. God, who is the BEST PHYSICIAN IN THE UNIVERSE…does not.

Well, Jesus asked that very question to the Father during the Agony in the Garden. He asked that the chalice would pass. I think that question is settled.

God is not cruel. Any suffering he permits is either Just or Redemptive.

Satan is cruel. If a person wishes to persist in sinful living, then they should accept whatever pain and suffering befalls them.

The fact of the matter is that when one person sins privately, very often this sin will affect everyone in society including the innocent. Very often in Scripture we read that entire nations are judged, the good and the bad alike. Now, faced with these realities we can become indignant like Lucifer or we can choose to whine and complain and blame God or like the Saints we can trust that God knows what He is doing and he is working everything for the greatest possible good. It comes down to trust and obedience, regardless of how much we think we think we are suffering unjustly.

I am reminded of what is written in The Book of Wisdom:

Do not court death by the errors of your ways,
nor invite destruction through your own actions.
Death was not God’s doing,
he takes no pleasure in the extinction of the living.
To be - for this he created all; (Wisdom 1:12-15)

Yet God did make man imperishable,
he made him in the image of his own nature;
it was the devil’s envy that brought death into the world,
as those who are his partners will discover. (Wisdom 2:23-24)

And in Ecclesiasticus Chapter 2:1-23, we read:

My son, if you aspire to serve the Lord,
prepare yourself for an ordeal.
Be sincere of heart, be steadfast,
and do not be alarmed when disaster comes.
Cling to him and do not leave him,
so that you may be honoured at the end of your days.
Whatever happens to you, accept it,
and in the uncertainties of your humble state, be patient,
since gold is tested in the fire,
and chosen men in the furnace of humiliation.
Trust him and he will uphold you,
follow a straight path and hope in him.
You who fear the Lord, wait for his mercy;
do not turn aside in case you fall.
You who fear the Lord, trust him,
and you will not be baulked of your reward.
You who fear the Lord hope for good things,
for everlasting happiness and mercy.
Look at the generation of old and see:
who ever trusted in the Lord and was put to shame?
Or who ever feared him steadfastly and was left forsaken?
Or who ever called out to him, and was ignored?
For the Lord is compassionate and merciful,
he forgives sins, and saves in days of distress.
Woe to faint hearts and listless hands,
and to the sinner who treads two paths.
Woe to the listless heart that has not faith,
for such will have no protection.
Woe to you who have lost the will to endure;
what will you do at the Lord’s visitation?
Those who fear the Lord do not disdain his words,
and those who love him keep his ways.
Those who fear the Lord do their best to please him,
and those who love him find satisfaction in his Law.
Those who fear the Lord keep their hearts prepared
and humble themselves in his presence.
Let us fall into the hands of the Lord, not into the hands of men;
for as his majesty is, so too is his mercy.

 

[BobCatholic]

Well, Jesus asked that very question to the Father during the Agony in the Garden. He asked that the chalice would pass. I think that question is settled.

Jesus is God and could handle his chalice.

I’m not, and I can’t. And I’m not going to be egotistical enough to say I could be God or could handle my chalice.

Big difference.

Gold is tested in fire. Why couldn’t God just make me purified already? If I were perfect, I’d have the wisdom to know it is not me, it is God that made me perfect, and thus egotism is zero.

 

[SalesianSDB]

As my Christian theology professor would say, quoting C.S. Lewis on Aslan:

“He’s good, but He isn’t safe!”

 

[HansTrappist]

Jesus is God and could handle his chalice.

I’m not, and I can’t. And I’m not going to be egotistical enough to say I could be God or could handle my chalice.

We have sufficient grace to handle our chalices, so long as we cooperate with that grace.

Gold is tested in fire. Why couldn’t God just make me purified already? If I were perfect, I’d have the wisdom to know it is not me, it is God that made me perfect, and thus egotism is zero.

God gets to set the rules.

As long as there is free will there will be the chance that Love is rejected, regardless of whether a creature is perfect or not. Lucifer was created perfect and he fell. Adam and Eve were created perfect and were in perfect harmony with Nature, yet they fell.

Suffering and Death entered the world through disobedience, not through of any lack of oversight or defect on the part of God in the creation of his creatures.

The Angels and Adam and Eve were created perfect and were called to participate in God’s life and to respect the line between Creator and creature. God did not create machines. He created co-heirs to the Kingdom of Heaven. Some of the angels rejected God’s hand, but many more accepted it. Adam and Eve shared in God’s life at first, but then intentionally disobeyed His precept even though they had all the grace necessary to remain in Grace. In response, God decided to assume that fallen human flesh and suffer and die so that the Human Race would be Redeemed. We humans get many more opportunities than the angels to accept God’s hand, but there comes a point when even we must decide where we would like to spend eternity.

 

[BobCatholic]

We have sufficient grace to handle our chalices, so long as we cooperate with that grace.

And what do I do if I don’t have enough grace? I asked for more and it is like waiting for that late night train, taking forever…when will it get here?

God gets to set the rules.

“because I said so”
“my way or the highway”
and my personal un-favorite
“I don’t have to justify my orders to you, and you do have to follow them”

When ordinary mortals act like this, it is not helpful for the relationship. When God acts like this…

 

[InJesusItrust]

“because I said so”
“my way or the highway”
and my personal un-favorite
“I don’t have to justify my orders to you, and you do have to follow them”

When ordinary mortals act like this, it is not helpful for the relationship. When God acts like this…

He is God.

Can you explain to a dog why he needs to wear a collar or be tied to a tree rather than merrily roaming the streets? Man is to God as dog is to man. At some level you are just going to have to trust God even if you do not understand His thoughts.

 

[BobCatholic]

He is God.

Can you explain to a dog why he needs to wear a collar or be tied to a tree rather than merrily roaming the streets? Man is to God as dog is to man. At some level you are just going to have to trust God even if you do not understand His thoughts.

Unfortunately, I’m not a dog. And dogs don’t think about this because it is not in their nature.

I seek understanding. That is part of wisdom. And scripture says if I ask for wisdom, God will not refuse.

But he has refused to get me wisdom here. Why? Why make an open-ended promise and then cut me off from collecting? Why the delay?

Trust is a two way street too. I need him to trust me with information I need to do his will.

This is what happens. I don’t have the information. So I can’t do his will. He punishes me for not doing it. I ask for more information so I can avoid being punished. I don’t get it. So I can’t do his will. He punishes me for not doing it.

The needle is stuck in the groove and the record keeps repeating. I want him to move the needle. I can’t do it myself.

 

[InJesusItrust]

Bob, the point is that God in infinitively wise. He named every star that we can both see and not see in the universe. He knows everything about everything. It very well may be that the wisdom behind God’s actions is beyond our comprehension, similar to how calculus is beyond the comprehension of a dog. Have you ever studied Turing machines? If we liken the mind to a computing device, we have limits. All machines have limits to what they can compute. Some creatures can compute more than other creatures, but God is without limit. It very well maybe that this wisdom behind suffering exceeds our capacities: Why did God choose to suffer and die rather than conquer? To the human mind it is foolish, but it well may be that it is so profoundly wise that we can never grasp it.

It is an act of will to accept that God is good despite not knowing wisdom. Hope, faith and charity are superior to other virtues.

 

[Sarcelle]

Don’t be. There is no love greater than God’s, He understands all our weaknesses and wants us to be with Him. He wants us - that’s such a mind-blowing thing. No one is getting lost unless they actually run away.

You aren’t doing that, right?

The self-righteous, perfect, law-abiding guys weren’t the ones Jesus was having dinner with.

Go read Saint Faustina again.

I read Saint Faustina.

She asked Jesus why would he come to a soul such as hers. Some of her fellow nuns were telling her that Jesus would not come to a soul as miserable as hers. He told St. Faustina that he comes to souls as miserable as hers and the more miserable a soul is the more right it has to His Divine Mercy.

 

[BobCatholic]

It is an act of will to accept that God is good despite not knowing wisdom. Hope, faith and charity are superior to other virtues.

I believe that God is good. God’s will is perfect but has imperfect consequences (like me I exist, and that’s proof enough)

Since I don’t have wisdom to see what good is the particular suffering I’m going through and understand it, I guess I have to accept the fact that I can never have a personal relationship with God and just be satisfied with having a corporate relationship with God (being part of his body, the Church). I have been personally rejected by God, but not corporately rejected by God. If I were a more pleasing soul to him, perhaps He would have wanted me. I want God but he doesn’t want me. If I had a personal relationship with God, he would have talked to me and given me encouragement. “C’mon, just put up with this for a few more days/weeks/months and things will be better.”

I will go to mass with sadness (because I’m not a pleasing soul to God) and with happiness (at least I have the Church) I will have God as my Father only because I have the Church as my mother and Christ as my savior. I can only sail these horrible waters while being in the Barque of Peter, because I know I can’t swim (metaphorically speaking).

A corporate relationship with God is better than none at all, so at least I am thankful for that.

I am in the heart of Holy Mother Church, but I worry I may not make it to the heart of God. I worry I am "in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’ " because I’m not wanted by God.