God is severe?

[Chantal25]

I haven’t read any replies so my apologies if i repeat with someone else.

You need to read Saint Faustina’s diary, you will see how Merciful Jesus is. Purgatory is also an act of Mercy.

Nothing you could have done, is more powerful then the blood of Jesus on the cross. If you are sincere, your sins are always forgiven. The mortal sin must be confess through a priest but go see a priest anyway if your sin are little. Say the divine mercy prayer at 3pm, this will help you to have hope and faith.

As for if this is easy to go to Heaven, as per Jesus, “Many will be call but little will come”.

Not that God is severe but God is only love and we cannot enter heaven if our soul has a stain. With, the mercy of God we have the purgatory to purify. See this this way, if you have an aquarium that you are cleaning, and using perfect clean water, it wouldn’t make sense to put anything inside of it, unless it has been cleanse first. God is love, we must be in this state to go to Heaven. Everyone, is wanted in Heaven, everyone, it is up to us. With the great gift of Jesus coming on earth sent by God, is prove that God wants all of us to Heaven. Read the bible again, it shows the way to be perfect as human being.

Blessings and love!

p.s Always pray for your loved one that died, so they can graduate to Heaven.

Another P.S.: Some of the key note in the bible, forgive others always, if you want God to forgive you. No matter what they do, pray for them always. Love God with all of your heart pray to be able to love him this way and love others. Bear good fruits, go to confession often no matter if you do the same sin over and over and receive the precious sacrament of the Eucharist, this is an amazing miracle and you cannot pass on this gift for us.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

When Jesus spent his time on Earth, he would have lived by the greatest commandments, this would have been the greatest way he could respond to each and every situation in his life. But how did Jesus love all his neighbours as he loved himself, Judas who betrayed him, the soldiers who crowned him with thorns and nailed him to the cross? Jesus was an innocent man, with the power and authority to ask God to punish these people.

But it seems that nothing, and no one should stand in the way of Jesus living by the greatest commandments, and we know that he prayed on the cross, ‘ forgive them Father’
It seems that every time Jesus suffered injustice here on Earth, he forgave, in order that
he should continue to love the sinners as he loved himself. If Jesus can forgive the people who had him killed, then it should give us hope that we can be forgiven also. What kind of a burden do we place on Jesus with our sins?

After his resurrection does the divine nature of Jesus, follow his human nature? When Jesus ascended into heaven, does Jesus still forgive us, in order that he should continue to love each and every one of us as he loves himself?

John 15 – As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you.

 

[HansTrappist]

I’ve been reading up on the four last things. I am starting to feel overwhelmed with sadness at the thought of how severe God might be. When I read some of the things that the saints wrote, God seemed kind and merciful. Now I am feeling scared at the thought of judgement: catholicmatters.com/deat05.htm

Some thoughts from The Book of Proverbs:

A virtuous man may count on life,
the pursuer of evil on death.

Men of depraved heart are abhorrent to Yahweh,
dear to him, those whose ways are blameless.

The virtuous man escapes misfortune,
the wicked man incurs it instead.

Yahweh is a stronghold for the man of honest life,
for evildoers nothing but ruin.

When the storm is over, the wicked man is no more,
but the virtuous stands firm for ever.

 

[Glacies]

St. Thomas Aquinas has treated the gift of fear in his Summa Theologica (IIa IIae, q. 19) and asserts that while the servile fear of punishment is good it is diminished as one grows in charity and filial fear of offending God replaces it:

“On the other hand servile fear, as regards its servility, is entirely cast out when charity comes, although the fear of punishment remains as to its substance, as stated above. This fear decreases as charity increases, chiefly as regards its act, since the more a man loves God, the less he fears punishment; first, because he thinks less of his own good, to which punishment is opposed; secondly, because, the faster he clings, the more confident he is of the reward, and, consequently the less fearful of punishment.”

In The Life and Doctrine of Saint Catherine of Genoa, Chapter XII, the saint relates that she thought even Hell was merciful in comparison to the dreadfulness of sin:

“When I beheld that vision in which I saw the magnitude of the stain of even one least sin against God, I know not why I did not die. I said: ‘I no longer marvel that hell is so horrible, since it was made for sin; for even hell (as I have seen it) I do not believe to be really proportionate to the dreadfulness of sin; on the contrary, it seems to me that even in hell God is very merciful, since I have beheld the terrible stain caused by but one venial sin. And what, in comparison to that, would be a mortal sin? And then so many mortal sins? Surely, if any one could behold all this, even if he were immortal, anguish would once more make him mortal. Even that slight and solitary vision which I beheld, and which lasted but an instant, if it had continued but a little longer would have destroyed my body had it been made of adamant.”

 

[Vouthon]

“…A pleasant vineyard, sing of it! I, the Lord, am its keeper; every moment I water it. Lest anyone punish it, I keep it night and day; I have no wrath…”

Isaiah 27:3-4

God’s love is thus both merciful and just. I prefer “justice” to “wrath” because vengeance and “anger” are human emotions, whereas God is impassible according Thomas Aquinas, without emotions.

God cannot have “wrath” because God is immutable (unchanging) and impassible (without human emotions). For him to experience wrath would bring him down to the human sphere and denote change within him, which as you know cannot be because God in his Essence is wholly transcendent and unknowable.

Emotions are a result of changeableness. God is one eternal divine act, which in his very nature is the self-emptying love between the Three Persons of the Most Holy Trinity.

I therefore view the language of scripture attributing “emotions” to God as figurative, for the benefit of human beings, rather than testament to the actual reality of God.

The god of wrath and punishment does not exist. That god must go, that idea, that human god must die. The reality of God is far above all human thinking and is ultimately unknowable to human intellect, inaccessible except for those who pass through the doorway of love and thereby pierce the cloud of unknowing between man and God with that dart of love.

God is present everywhere, even in hell, only that in heaven the spiritual eyes of the Just are perfectly clear such that they can see God face to face as in a mirror and perceive the Eternal Light, whereas the damned are so blinded by hatred and sin that their spiritual eyes cannot perceive God at all and will never see him for all eternity, even though he is there absolutely with every fibre of his love, keeping them in existence - for if God were not there, the damned would cease to exist. Indeed heaven and hell are not “ontologically” different “places” both experiences of the presence of God, which only differs depending on the quality of our soul.

This is why Angelus Silesius said that if the sun hurt’s your eyes, the fault is not in the light but in your eyes which are damaged. God is the Sun and the eyes are a metaphor for our soul. The light is there at all times but a blind man cannot see it. That is hell, the inability to see the Beatific Vision, our heart’s true and deepest desire.

"…The vengeful God
of wrath and punishment
is a mere fairytale.
It simply is the Me
that makes me fail.

God stands far above the anger,
rage and indignation
ascribed to Him by primitive imagination

All heaven’s glory is within
and so is hell’s fierce burning.
You must yourself decide
in which direction
you are turning

What is the meaning of Eternal? It is timelessness.
Time without end is that which makes a hell infernal

Unless you find paradise
at your own center,
there is not
the smallest chance
that you may enter

No evil wills our God. Planned he the sinner’s end
And our unhappiness, he were not God, my friend.

If broken from its sun, a ray’s no longer bright;
Thou neither, leaving God, thy necessary light

God dwelleth in a light toward which there is no path;
He must become that light who need of vision hath.

If gazing on the Sun endangereth thy sight,
The blame is in thine eyes, and not in that great Light…"

***- Angelus Silesius (1624 - 1677), Polish-German Catholic mystic & poet ***

“…In order to attain perfect union, we must divest ourselves of God…The common belief about God, that He is a great Taskmaster, whose function is to reward or punish, is cast out by perfect love; and in this sense the spiritual man does divest himself of God as conceived of by most people. The intellectual where is the essential unnameable nothingness. So we must call it, because we can discover no mode of being, under which to conceive it…it seems to us to be no-thing…You must give up human understanding if you want to reach the goal, because the truth is known by not knowing…This is the highest goal and the ‘where’ beyond boundaries. In this the spirituality of all spirits ends. Here to lose oneself forever is eternal happiness…Here in this region beyond thought the human spirit actively soars…In this wild mountain region of the ‘where’ beyond God there is an abyss full of play and feeling for all pure spirits…It is hidden for everything that is not God, except for those with whom he wants to share Himself…Eternity is life that is beyond time but includes within itself all time but without a before or after. And whoever is taken into the Eternal Nothing possesses all in all and has no ‘before or after’. Indeed a person taken within today would not have been there for a shorter period from the point of view of eternity than someone who had been taken within a thousand years ago…Now these people who are taken within, because of their boundless immanent oneness with God, see themselves as always and eternally existing…be steadfast and never rest content until you have obtained the Now of Eternity as your present possession in this life…”

***- Blessed Henry Suso (c. 1296-1366), German Catholic mystic & Dominican priest ***

 

[Julia_Mae]

I want to say something before I respond. I’m sorry you are so angry at God and so upset. I’m sorry for whatever did happen or is happening that is hurting you so much. I think because of this, you aren’t able to hear very well because, really, you’d rather be mad. I think you need to go yell at God and work it out with Him. That being said and assuming for the moment you are not an atheist troll pretending to be Catholic, I’m going to continue this conversation…

Which is stupid. Then again, some people are created stupid, and don’t stand a chance of doing anything other than stupidity. Their free will is reduced or eliminated by their stupidity.

Let’s start with the premise that “people are created stupid.” They are not. People are born with varying degrees of intelligence, but wisdom isn’t related to intelligence, and being stupid is a choice that is related to pride.

And why didn’t God just say “OK you chose me and now I give you the strength to withstand…”

I am flattered that you think I know how all things Divine work, (or, wait… is it that *you *think you know how all things Divine work … or should?) but the way things work in Time is only a faint shadow of the workings in Eternity. It works this way for our greatest benefit. Again, God making things happen for us instead of us choosing would only leave us weak and unable to be individuals who can exist in His Presence.

He did that with the Angels that did not fall. Why didn’t He do that with us? Because we do not have as much value to him as they did.

You’re having a fantasy. The Church doesn’t say God “did this with the angels that did not fall” and certainly doesn’t teach that God prefers angels to us. God didn’t become a human and then give up His life to be tortured on a Cross for the angels.

When people, due to imperfections, fail, how do they have a choice in the matter?

“The devil made me do it!” LOL! If you are on a diet and you fail to stick to it, did you have a choice whether or not to shove that Twinkie into your mouth? Are you going to start arguing that freewill doesn’t exist?

The guy in the wheelchair cannot under any circumstances run the Boston Marathon.
The severely mentally retarded guy cannot earn his PhD, much less a high school diploma.

Imperfections limit, reduce, or eliminate free will.

And we have lift-off!!!

If free will were sacrosanct, it would be equally easy (or hard) to choose God or not to choose God. Instead, it is incredibly easy to lose God and extremely hard to keep him.

Why would you think that? You are wrong, of course, but I’m wondering how you got this so backwards.

Also, if free will were sacrosanct, we would have been created perfect, without defects. Any imperfections reduce or eliminate our free will.

This is, of course, entirely untrue. God isn’t very interested in whether we can run a marathon. You seem to be defining “free will” as “do anything you want.” Of course, it doesn’t mean that at all. It means that when faced with a choice, you choose. That is all. No one else chooses for you. Right now you are in this thread by your own choice trying to accomplish something by your own free will. You can choose to stop posting or keep posting, you can decide your intent is unworthy or not-Godly. You can keep on keeping on as you have been.

It’s all up to you.

I don’t think it is fair to temporally hold us responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve.

I think if you are going to name yourself “BobCatholic” you should at least try to understand Catholic teaching. No one is “held responsible” for the sin of another, including Adam and Eve.

We did not create this world in such a mess, yet we are held temporally responsible for it. That is not just at all.

Jesus didn’t make you sin and had no responsibility for your sin. Yet, He came here, He suffered and died for you, He took your sin onto Himself. That’s Divine Justice.

To choose God is to act as God: to sacrifice for others to make their time here easier: to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, comfort the bereaved, visit the imprisoned… Choosing God is choosing the welfare of others.

And if everything was already perfect, how could we do that? We couldn’t. And we would have to be separated from God forever.

 

[BobCatholic]

I think you need to go yell at God and work it out with Him.

I did that, it still hasn’t been worked out

That being said and assuming for the moment you are not an atheist troll pretending to be Catholic, I’m going to continue this conversation…

No way! I’m just struggling with some huge theological questions and I can’t find the answers. I used to be a Catholic apologist until I totally had my life get slammed with bad things. I still LOVE the Catholic faith. I just feel like I’m not worthy of it.

and being stupid is a choice that is related to pride.

There is no pride in being stupid. It doesn’t stroke the ego, and those who are prideful are usually boasting of their intelligence.

am flattered that you think I know how all things Divine work, (or, wait… is it that *you *think you know how all things Divine work … or should?)

I don’t know how Divine things work. I’m just asking why, with God being omnipotent and able to do ANYTHING, that He couldn’t just do things that way?

Again, God making things happen for us instead of us choosing would only leave us weak and unable to be individuals who can exist in His Presence.

Using that reasoning, Christ should never have died for us since that made us weaker. God should never heal anyone or do anything nice because that would make them weaker.

I disagree with that. Big time.

God does show mercy and do things for people unable to do for themselves. I don’t know why he won’t do something like that for me. I want my concupiscence cured. I want to please God but I’m tired of suffering. And because I don’t want to suffer, that is evil.

You’re having a fantasy. The Church doesn’t say God “did this with the angels that did not fall” and certainly doesn’t teach that God prefers angels to us.

So angels had no free will? I thought they did.

“The devil made me do it!” LOL! If you are on a diet and you fail to stick to it, did you have a choice whether or not to shove that Twinkie into your mouth? Are you going to start arguing that freewill doesn’t exist?

I’m not arguing free will doesn’t exist. I’m arguing that free will IS reduced or COULD BE eliminated due to imperfections in some areas. And it is not “the devil made me do it” it is “my imperfections caused me to fall”

Think about it. Someone who has tourette’s syndrome can’t help but to cuss. Does he have free will when it comes to cussing? No. But he has free will in other areas.

If someone is naive, they will believe anything evil people will tell them and thus will do evil of some kind.

Why would you think that? You are wrong, of course, but I’m wondering how you got this so backwards.

How do you get to heaven? Die in a state of grace. How?

I see God’s grace as a glass of water, given free to hold. Mortal sin spills the entire glass and its game over. Time to get a refill in confession. Venial sin spills a couple of drops. I somehow got to make it to death with water in the glass. It is easy to spill the glass and harder to keep the glass full until death.

But wait, we live in a world that has people sticking out their feet trying to trip you. And bullies trying to bump into you. And people trying to knock your glass over.

So what happens is that living a life of grace is horrendously difficult. But it is so easy to spill that water.

So I ask God to get rid of the tripping feet. Nope. At least let me carry a bucket? Nope. Stop the other people trying to hurt me? Nope.

And then I wonder if God has rejected me?

God isn’t very interested in whether we can run a marathon.

Yes, he is.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 9:24 [/BIBLEDRB] [BIBLEDRB]Hebrews 12:1[/BIBLEDRB]

He expects us to have endurance in faith.

But we are created with a crippling disease: concupiscence. It is like having a wheelchair (concupiscence) and being told to run a marathon (life of grace)

You seem to be defining “free will” as “do anything you want.”

No. I define it as being able to choose.

Imagine this scenario: You have the choice between doing advanced calculus (keeping the faith) or not doing that (not keeping the faith) but are born with horrible math skills. Your choice is? Oh yeah. Failing calculus.

That’s how life works.

Of course, it doesn’t mean that at all. It means that when faced with a choice, you choose.

It has to be the right choice AND you have to be able to stick with it. This requires both the ability to choose (full free will) and the ability to have endurance (imperfections say you can’t do this!)

No one is “held responsible” for the sin of another, including Adam and Eve.

Not spiritually. Jesus Christ took care of that.

Your honor, please take judicial notice of the undeniable fact: We are NOT in the Garden of Eden and WE SUFFER.

Both of these are punishments due to Adam and Eve’s sin. Remember what Genesis said.

So we are held TEMPORALLY responsible for Adam and Eve’s sin.

Jesus didn’t make you sin and had no responsibility for your sin. Yet, He came here, He suffered and died for you, He took your sin onto Himself. That’s Divine Justice.

Correct. So that means the spiritual price is paid. Meanwhile the temporal price was not, and we are held temporally responsible for it.

And if everything was already perfect, how could we do that? We couldn’t. And we would have to be separated from God forever.

If everyone was created perfect, free will would be fully intact and we could make the right decision.

 

[HansTrappist]

No way! I’m just struggling with some huge theological questions and I can’t find the answers.

And you never will find the answers to “those” types of questions. Nobody ever will. They are called mysteries of the Faith for a reason. Adam and Eve knew the answers to those questions, and yet they still Fell from Grace. After the Fall, Human Nature was damaged and our Intellect has been darkened.

I once asked the same type of questions that you are asking. Questions like. “Why wouldn’t God give every human being the same chance Adam and Eve had?” Or, “Why did Original Sin have to get passed on to and damage the rest of us?” But these questions will never be answered in this life. They are mysteries of the Faith.

Sometimes Obedience is more important than Knowledge.

 

[HansTrappist]

I don’t know how Divine things work. I’m just asking why, with God being omnipotent and able to do ANYTHING, that He couldn’t just do things that way?

God can’t do “anything”. Sinning is a “thing”. But God cannot sin. Therefore, God cannot do “anything.” This doesn’t change the fact that God is Omnipotent. Human language has its own limitations.

Everything that God created was Good, including Lucifer. Evil is not a being, thing, substance, or entity. Being is either the Creator or his creature. Even Satan was once good. He is a good thing gone bad - in fact, a very good thing gone very bad. If he had not had the greatest ontological goodness of a powerful mind and will, he could never have become as morally corrupt as he is. “Lillies that fester smell far worse than weeds.”

God does not annihilate that which He has created Good. That is why I believe Satan was not destroyed and why the Human Race was allowed to endure even after the Fall. But this is just what I think. It remains a Mystery of the Faith.

 

[BobCatholic]

Adam and Eve knew the answers to those questions, and yet they still Fell from Grace.

They were created imperfect. Either they were stupid, fearful, or naive. Because of that imperfection or combination of imperfections, they fell.

After the Fall, Human Nature was damaged and our Intellect has been darkened.

And now it is harder for us to do what is right, and that does not impact our free will negatively?

Sometimes Obedience is more important than Knowledge.

Hard to do that when I’m imperfect. I hate my imperfections. I hate my weakness.
I HATE THEM! I HATE THEM! I HATE THEM! I HATE THEM! I HATE THEM! I HATE THEM!

I beg God for the grace to overcome my weaknesses. Answer = no.

It is like I’m set up to fail. And that depresses me. I fail God and I can’t get better.

This is so depressing.

 

[HansTrappist]

They were created imperfect. Either they were stupid, fearful, or naive. Because of that imperfection or combination of imperfections, they fell.

No, rest assured, that in their original state they were created perfect. Human Nature was perfect. There was no decay, pain or death.

Lucifer was also created perfect in his angelic state. Next to God, Lucifer was the most beautiful, powerful, intelligent being ever created. Yet he Fell. Why? Again, it is a mystery but part of the answer is that he had the will to create (hence his Pride) yet since he was an angel, lacked the ability to create matter (hence his Envy). He was tempted by his own Pride and Envy. He was called to obedience and yet rebelled in indignation over the fact that he should be created perfect, yet still have limitations. In a similar way, Adam and Eve were created perfect (as far as human body and mind is concerned) yet were not angels. I suspect that in the Garden of Eden, Lucifer played on the fact that their Human Nature was perfect, yet was still limited. This is where Obedience came in. The clear line between Creator and creature (no matter how perfect).

 

[Julia_Mae]

I’m just struggling with some huge theological questions and I can’t find the answers. I used to be a Catholic apologist until I totally had my life get slammed with bad things. I still LOVE the Catholic faith. I just feel like I’m not worthy of it.

Doesn’t sound like that at all. What you seem to think from what you post is that God is not living up to your expectations, not fitting into whatever box you created for Him when you were an “apologist.”

The answers are right where they have always been. You won’t see them, you refuse to accept them, you make statements not at all in line with the faith for an “apologist,” so I guess you never did understand what you were opining and lecturing others about.

In other words, you were and are, prideful. And that leads to doing stupid things: like rejecting the Grace inherent in the struggles you’ve been given, refusing to be responsible for your own sin because IT’S ALL GOD’S FAULT for not making you perfect, and refusing to listen to one thing anyone says to you.

I believe God has given you exactly what you need to get to Him because all that apologetics seems to have led you as far away from Him as you can get without actually admitting your atheism. If you insist that you believe in god, but define that as something He is not - what you believe in is not-god. What you believe in is yourself and your own ideas. Which are way wrong in terms of theology.

So you decided to argue with people here and not listen to anything anyone says because you already have all the answers and prove - wait for it…

God is wrong and you are right.

Now, you want to make that argument again about how stupid isn’t related to pride?

You are sinning? You can’t stop? This is what you do:

If you are harming someone weaker than yourself: abusing a child, spouse, animal or underling - you immediately remove yourself from their presence and get mental health assistance. That’s your responsibility: do no harm.

If you are a drunk, drug addict or doing some other thing that is harmful to yourself and, by extension, those who love you: give up control and enter a facility or therapy.

It’s your sin. Not God’s sin. Your sin. Your job is to do what you have to do to protect people from your sin and yourself, as far as possible.

The first thing you do, BTW, is look at all the things you think are wrong with your life, drop to your knees and thank God your life is exactly as it is because this is His will for you so that you can find Him and be with Him and He knows best and you are not much more than some animated dirt, just like the rest of us, and way way way too small to even entertain the idea that you can second-guess God.

Everything that is wrong between you and God comes from you. Good luck, I’ll be praying for you.

 

[BobCatholic]

No, rest assured, that in their original state they were created perfect. Human Nature was perfect. There was no decay, pain or death.

Impossible.

They had imperfections. It all depends on how the text in Genesis is interpreted.

They were naive. They believed anything anyone told them so that’s how a serpent talked them into believing nonsense.

Or maybe they were cowards- some say the serpent was 50 feet tall and intimidated them into the act.

Or maybe it was just cowardice of another kid - Adam didn’t have the cajones to stand up for his wife.

Or maybe they were stupid. They actually believed the lies and bit the hand that fed them? They actually bothered to listen to a talking snake? No suspicions whatsoever?

They were most definitely imperfect. Their imperfections decreased their free will.

And we, being even MORE imperfect, are held temporally responsible for their acts.

Lucifer was also created perfect in his angelic state.

If he were, pride would never have entered the picture. Pride is an imperfection.
The big ego would never have been part of the equation, because having a big one is an imperfection.

Create an angel with a big ego and then wonder that he becomes egotistical? Make it easy to be egoistical and hard to be humble and then wonder why the switch defaults to evil?

Write a buggy program, it crashes. So the correct solution is: Blame the buggy program. Not the bugs which limited its free will. Right?

In addition, the angels were not subject to the long period of trial we are forced to endure. They chose God and had the “Love God” switch stuck in the on position forever. We choose God and the switch breaks because the program is written incorrectly from the start.

I beg the Great Coder in Heaven for a code fix and don’t get it. Then I fail and get punished.

 

[BobCatholic]

What you seem to think from what you post is that God is not living up to your expectations,

No, what is happening is people tell me one thing about God and my experience tells me something else.

In other words, you were and are, prideful.

I’m sure I am. I am so imperfect and hate all my imperfections.

like rejecting the Grace inherent in the struggles you’ve been given,

What grace? Struggles are not a grace. Grace helps us in our struggles. Grace gives us the strength in our struggles. Grace makes the struggles easier because one is stronger. Or was that “my yoke is light” teaching just a decoration? I don’t think so.

I believe God has given you exactly what you need to get to Him because all that apologetics seems to have led you as far away from Him as you can get without actually admitting your atheism.

I do believe in God. I don’t know if God believes in me.

If you insist that you believe in god, but define that as something He is not - what you believe in is not-god.

I’m trying to figure out certain things. I want to believe in God as he is, I want to know God as he is. But he doesn’t want me.

It’s your sin. Not God’s sin. Your sin. Your job is to do what you have to do to protect people from your sin and yourself, as far as possible.

So suicide is the only answer then.

The first thing you do, BTW, is look at all the things you think are wrong with your life, drop to your knees and thank God your life is exactly as it is

Thank God for being punished? Thank God for being rejected? Thank God for being unwanted?

because this is His will for you so that you can find Him

How can I find him when he doesn’t want me? I seek him out, seek the truth and I get blamed and punished for it.

I got the message loud and clear. I’m never allowed to ask questions, because if I do, I’m being prideful and evil. I can never know the answers to questions that burden me. And if I get punished for not knowing the answers, I can’t say anything.

I am Balaam’s donkey. I don’t dare object to my situation, because then I get kicked and beaten. In this case, philosophically in a forum.

 

[Julia_Mae]

What grace? Struggles are not a grace.

And there it is. You’re essential misunderstanding of the way things work. The Cross is the greatest victory in history. Your crosses are huge blessings by His Grace. Accept them with humility and thanks.

Good luck and God bless.

 

[BobCatholic]

And there it is. You’re essential misunderstanding of the way things work. The Cross is the greatest victory in history.

Christ’s Cross is the greatest victory in history. To Christ goes the glory. To Christ goes the worship and praise.

My cross is just a burden. It is painful and heavy. And I don’t have the strength to carry it because I’m expected to just…do.

 

[HansTrappist]

They had imperfections.

They were naive. They believed anything anyone told them so that’s how a serpent talked them into believing nonsense.

Or maybe they were cowards- some say the serpent was 50 feet tall and intimidated them into the act.

Or maybe it was just cowardice of another kid - Adam didn’t have the cajones to stand up for his wife.

Or maybe they were stupid. They actually believed the lies and bit the hand that fed them? They actually bothered to listen to a talking snake? No suspicions whatsoever?

They were most definitely imperfect. Their imperfections decreased their free will.

Rest assured, Lucifer was created perfect, as far as angels go. Adam and Eve were created perfect, as far as human beings go. In their original state, they had no imperfections. Their free will was not diminished. They were not naive, stupid, cowards, or any other thing that you may wish to assert.

Venerable Mary of Agreda offers this commentary on the Creation of Man:

But the happy state in which God had created the parents of the human race lasted only a very short while. The envy of the serpent was immediately aroused against them, for satan was patiently awaiting their creation, and no sooner were they created, than his hatred became active against them. However, he was not permitted to witness the formation of Adam and Eve, as he had witnessed the creation of all other things: for the Lord did not choose to manifest to him the creation of man, nor the formation of Eve from a rib; all these things were concealed from him for a space of time until both of them were joined. But when the demon saw the admirable composition of the human nature, perfect beyond that of any creature, the beauty of the souls and also of the bodies of Adam and Eve; when he saw the paternal love with which the Lord regarded them, and how He made them the lords of all creation, and that He gave them hope of eternal life: the wrath of the dragon was lashed to fury, and no tongue can describe the rage with which that beast was filled, nor how great was his envy and his desire to take the life of these two beings. Like an enraged lion he certainly would have done so, if he had not known, that a superior force would prevent him. Nevertheless he studied and plotted out some means, which would suffice to deprive them of the grace of the Most High and make them God’s enemies.

Here Lucifer was deceived; for the Lord had from the beginning mysteriously manifested to him, that the Word was to assume human nature in the womb of the most holy Mary, but not how and when; and thus He had also concealed the creation of Adam and the formation of Eve, in order that Lucifer might from the beginning labor under his ignorance concerning the mystery and the time of the Incarnation. As his wrath and his watchfulness had thus been so signally forestalled in regard to Christ and Mary, he suspected that Adam had come forth from Eve, and that She was the Mother and Adam the incarnate Word. His suspicions grew, when he felt the divine power, which prevented him from harming the life of these creatures. On the other hand, he soon became aware of the precepts of God, for these did not remain concealed from him, since he heard their conversation in regard to them. Being freed more and more from his doubt as he listened to the words of the first parents and sized up their natural gifts, he began to follow them like a roaring lion (I Pet. 5, 8), seeking an entrance through those inclinations, which he found in each of them. Nevertheless, until he was undeceived in the course of the Redemption, he continued to hesitate between his wrath against Christ and Mary and the dread of being overcome by Them. Most of all he dreaded the confusion of being conquered by the Queen of heaven, who was to be a mere creature and not God.

Taking courage therefore in the precept, which was given to Adam and Eve, and having prepared the snare, Lucifer entered with all his energy upon the work of entrapping them and of opposing and hindering the execution of the divine Will. He first approached the woman, and not the man, because he knew her to be by nature more frail and weak, and because in tempting her he would be more certain that it was not Christ whom he was encountering. Against her also he was more enraged ever since he had seen the sign in the heaven and since the threat, which God had made in it against him. On these accounts his wrath was greater against Eve than against Adam. Before he showed himself to her, however, he aroused her in many disturbing thoughts or imaginations, in order to approach her in a state of excitement and pre-occupation. But because I have written this in another place, I will not enlarge here upon the violence and inhumanity of this temptation; it is enough for my purpose to mention what Scripture says: that he took the form of a serpent (Gen. 2, 1), and thus speaking to Eve drew her into a conversation, which she should not have permitted. Listening to him and answering, she began to believe him; then she violated the command of God, and finally persuaded her husband likewise to transgress the precept. Thus ruin overtook them and all the rest: for themselves and for us they lost the happy position, in which God had placed them.

When Lucifer saw the two fallen and their interior beauty and grace and original justice changed into the ugliness of sin, he celebrated his triumph with incredible joy and vaunting in the company of his demons. But he soon fell from his proud boasting, when he saw, contrary to his expectations, how kindly the merciful love of God dealt with the delinquents, and how He offered them a chance of doing penance by giving them hope of pardon and return of grace. Moreover he saw how they were disposing themselves toward this forgiveness by sorrow and contrition, and how the beauty of grace was restored to them.

 

[HansTrappist]

If he were, pride would never have entered the picture. Pride is an imperfection.
The big ego would never have been part of the equation, because having a big one is an imperfection.

Create an angel with a big ego and then wonder that he becomes egotistical? Make it easy to be egoistical and hard to be humble and then wonder why the switch defaults to evil?

Write a buggy program, it crashes. So the correct solution is: Blame the buggy program. Not the bugs which limited its free will. Right?

Wrong.

Lucifer was created perfect. So were the rest of the angels. Lucifer was the greatest angel, the chief Seraphim in fact, and was the greatest, most beautiful, powerful, and intelligent creature ever created. But, he was a creature with free will. Also, the angels were not admitted to the Beatific Vision immediately. Father Fortea explains it like this:

The real question is, Why did God not grant all the angels the Beatific Vision from the first moment of their creation? Why did He take the chance that some of them would rebel against Him and become demons? God could have created angelic spirits and immediately given them the grace of the Beatific Vision. This was perfectly possible for His omnipotence, and it would have been perfectly just to do so. But there were some powerful reasons for testing the angels before granting them the Beatific Vision.

First, God had to give to each rational being a degree of happiness. Everyone in heaven sees God, but no one can enjoy Him to an infinite degree; this is impossible for a finite being. Each finite creature enjoys to the fullest degree possible without wanting more. A common analogy used to understand this metaphysical concept is that of a glass: God fills each glass (i.e., soul) to the rim but each glass is a specific size based on its degree of glory.

God, in His wisdom, decided that each angel would determine its degree of glory for eternity by its response to a divine test. Each angel determined its degree of happiness by the degree of generosity, love, constancy, and other virtues it displayed in the test. A spirit can grow in its faith and in its generosity toward God before it sees Him. But once admitted to the Beatific Vision, no further growth is possible—there can no longer be growth in faith where there is vision. Above all, the period of testing offered the angels the opportunity to grow in the theological virtues, and some angels would grow more in the virtue of perseverance, others in humility, others in petition, etc.

Offering a being the possibility of faith also supposes the risk that in this same being evil may flourish instead of faith. God, by giving free will to the angels and human beings, knew that freedom, once bestowed, could be used for good or evil. Of course, God could have created the cosmos in any way he liked, without any restrictions or limits. But a saint is not created; one becomes a saint through the action of grace. The gift of freedom allows for a Hitler as well as a Blessed Teresa of Calcutta (Mother Teresa). Once the gift of freedom has been given, consequences—good or evil—flow from every act of the will. In the material cosmos there is no spiritual good; the good of the cosmos is purely physical. Spiritual (or moral) good is qualitatively superior but necessarily requires a free choice. Thus, the appearance of moral evil in no way upset God’s plan. The possibility of evil was already part of the divine plan before the creation of thinking beings.

Finally, the most important and powerful reason for God’s granting angels the gift of freedom was for them to love. God loves His creation, and He desires to be loved in return. But love requires receptivity—it must be received freely (CCC 1828). The same God who can create the cosmos with only an act of His will cannot create that love that is born and proven in the suffering of the faith. The love of God is not created; it must be freely given by a created being.

 

[BobCatholic]

Rest assured, Lucifer was created perfect, as far as angels go. Adam and Eve were created perfect, as far as human beings go. In their original state, they had no imperfections. Their free will was not diminished.

Then they were created without wisdom, and that’s an imperfection. If they had wisdom they would have known not to even listen to a talking snake.

Even if their free will was not diminished, MINE IS. I’m imperfect and it stands in the way of a relationship with God. I hate my imperfections.

because he knew her to be by nature more frail and weak,

He admits the woman Eve was imperfect. Frailty and weakness are imperfections.

But because I have written this in another place, I will not enlarge here upon the violence and inhumanity of this temptation

Sounds like she was intimidated into doing the sin. Fear is an imperfection. One theory was that the serpent was like 50 feet tall and very scary.

Listening to him and answering, she began to believe him

And here she is naive. Another imperfection. If a snake were talking to me, I’d whip out a baseball bat and beat it to the ground. She gives the snake a hearing. That’s naivete.

 

[HansTrappist]

Then they were created without wisdom, and that’s an imperfection. If they had wisdom they would have known not to even listen to a talking snake.

I not really sure where you are going here. Do you find it unbelievable that Lucifer could assume visible form?

The fact of the matter is that Eve was created perfect. She was perfectly wise. But she had a free will. As did Lucifer, who tempted her in a most horrible manner in visible form (the Bible finds it sufficient to say that he assumed the form of a serpent, but the exact nature and severity of this temptation remains a mystery). In any case, Eve had sufficient grace to withstand the temptation. She could have said “no” to Lucifer but said “yes” to his temptation. Contrast this with the Virgin Mary, who could have said “no” to God but said “yes” to Him.

Even if their free will was not diminished, MINE IS. I’m imperfect and it stands in the way of a relationship with God. I hate my imperfections.

Welcome to the world my friend.

Our Human Nature has been damaged by the Fall. Our Free Will remains intact. The Battle is won and we have all the Grace we will ever need (via the Sacraments) to be perfectly happy in this broken life and to make it to Heaven.

He admits the woman Eve was imperfect. Frailty and weakness are imperfections.

He is drawing a distinction between Adam and Eve. He was not highlighting any imperfections, just illustrating the differences between Male and Female, in a relative manner.

Sounds like she was intimidated into doing the sin. Fear is an imperfection. One theory was that the serpent was like 50 feet tall and very scary.

Sounds like she was tempted. Where do you get “fear” from? Where do you get this “50 foot tall theory” from?

And here she is naive. Another imperfection. If a snake were talking to me, I’d whip out a baseball bat and beat it to the ground. She gives the snake a hearing. That’s naivete.

If an ordinary snake was talking to you then, yes, it might be reasonable to give it a good beat down. But if Satan assumed visible form, I think you might find it difficult to resist his advances. After all, he is not called the “angel of light” for nothing.