God is the author of pain/suffering - true?

[Ion]

What does science have to do with believing the Genesis literally?

And if 1) Adam and Eve are the ones that have changed the nature because of their sin and 2) nature did exist millions of years before the apparition of man, then => God was so angry with Adam and Eve, that He chose to punish all the nature and make it suffer, age and die even millions of years before the birth of the first man. A punishment applied on an innocent nature for the sin of man, long before the sin was committed. A retroactive curse. Is that what you believe?

What I wanted to say it’s that you shouldn’t try to put your belief in science. Science can do some things, gave some answers (and some of them will be changed, the most natural thing in science), but doesn’t give all the answers (as you imagine). Personally I believe that all the proof archaeology has, points to a very short history. Unfortunately, not all the possibilities are stated, facts/data that contradicts theories are forgotten, and my personal opinion is that atheists have abused their position in the scientific world.
I do not believe anything of them and consider their theories mere hypothesis, except where the direct experiment can make the proof.

 

[Jessie5000]

I would say God is love and, because he loves us, he allows us to choose. Evil is the result of our choices, weather tempted or not… it is our choice to do evil. So in a sense, we steer our own ship.

Also, God can bring good forth from evil. For example, the drug addict that reforms and helps others suffering from addiction.

 

[bsroufek]

Regarding the Earth’s supposed existence millions of years before man, I recall the story by Jesus about Lazarus and the Rich Man and Abraham saying that, if they won’t believe Moses
and the Prophets, they won’t believe even if one should rise from the dead–that is, Jesus.

From this, I believe we should believe in Moses’ story of Creation, that the Earth and the Heavens were created in Six Days.

Regarding suffering, nothing happens to us that God doesn’t allow. We have the Cross and He chose to purify us through suffering: Jesus “was made perfect through suffering”.

 

[Love4All]

Science can do some things, gave some answers (and some of them will be changed, the most natural thing in science), but doesn’t give all the answers .

It gives many, many more answers if you count Theology among the sciences.

 

[JamesATyler]

A fawn that burns to death in a forest fire (millions of years before humans existed) will not understand its actions. It will only suffer and die.

Why? What does that say about God? This is my question.

If you create a fire and sit a few feet away it feels warm and pleasurable. If you sit in the fire it is painful. If you receive a massage it is pleasurable. If someone beats on your back with a hammer it is painful. Pain and pleasure are degrees of stimuli. The only way to create a word without pain is to also create one without any physical stimuli. God knows the fawn would rather feel the sun on its face and risk the wildfire than to have never felt anything at all.

 

[Love4All]

If you create a fire and sit a few feet away it feels warm and pleasurable. If you sit in the fire it is painful. If you receive a massage it is pleasurable. If someone beats on your back with a hammer it is painful. Pain and pleasure are degrees of stimuli. The only way to create a word without pain is to also create one without any physical stimuli. God knows the fawn would rather feel the sun on its face and risk the wildfire than to have never felt anything at all.

Also, in the interest of improving the Cervidae family, those fawns not swift enough to escape forest fires do not get to survive to reproductive age. Deer are characterized by fleetness of foot. The slower ones die, so deer in general keep getting swifter and swifter.

This is an understanding of the purpose of good and evil and evolution.

 

[Aloysium]

It gives many, many more answers if you count Theology among the sciences.

Theology being the study of religious truths, wouldn’t science be a part of theology, since its focus is earthly creation?
Science, it also must be remembered, is based on the belief that this is a rational universe (Our experiences are more than God’s dream.) and that we have the reason to comprehend it. (Although some things will always remain mysteries.)

 

[Love4All]

Theology being the study of religious truths, wouldn’t science be a part of theology, since its focus is earthly creation?
Science, it also must be remembered, is based on the belief that this is a rational universe (Our experiences are more than God’s dream.) and that we have the reason to comprehend it. (Although some things will always remain mysteries.)

The focus of theology is not earthly creation, but rather God’s revelation to man. Genesis is a story. There are deep truths in Genesis, but it is not a scientific account.

Since the Deposit of Faith is a real thing, it can be studied just like an atom or a plant or a galaxy can be studied. The only difference is the subject matter.

 

[Aloysium]

The focus of theology is not earthly creation, but rather God’s revelation to man. Genesis is a story. There are deep truths in Genesis, but it is not a scientific account.

Since the Deposit of Faith is a real thing, it can be studied just like an atom or a plant or a galaxy can be studied. The only difference is the subject matter.

I seem to be in a C.S. Lewis mood:
“There have been men before … who got so interested in proving the existence of God that they came to care nothing for God himself… as if the good Lord had nothing to do but to exist. There have been some who were so preoccupied with spreading Christianity that they never gave a thought to Christ.”

I’m not sure why this came to mind. I guess it is because the ultimate aim of man is to find God. With Theology we can immerse our thoughts in and get closer to Him, with science we can marvel in wonder at his earthly creation.

 

[Love4All]

Regarding the Earth’s supposed existence millions of years before man, I recall the story by Jesus about Lazarus and the Rich Man and Abraham saying that, if they won’t believe Moses
and the Prophets, they won’t believe even if one should rise from the dead–that is, Jesus.

From this, I believe we should believe in Moses’ story of Creation, that the Earth and the Heavens were created in Six Days.

But, those Six Days lasted, in physical time, about 13.8 billion years. Right?

Regarding suffering, nothing happens to us that God doesn’t allow. We have the Cross and He chose to purify us through suffering: Jesus “was made perfect through suffering”.

 

[Love4All]

I seem to be in a C.S. Lewis mood:
“There have been men before … who got so interested in proving the existence of God that they came to care nothing for God himself… as if the good Lord had nothing to do but to exist. There have been some who were so preoccupied with spreading Christianity that they never gave a thought to Christ.”

I’m not sure why this came to mind. I guess it is because the ultimate aim of man is to find God. With Theology we can immerse our thoughts in and get closer to Him, with science we can marvel in wonder at his earthly creation.

 

[jmcrae]

Please critique my logic here:

1. 
   *]Millions of years before man existed, there were dinosaurs and other creatures.

1. 
   So they say.
   

   *]Millions of years before man could have “fallen” or committed sin, some of these creatures suffered and died. The strong hunted and ate the weak, some were caught in forest fires, some fell off cliffs, some got sick and died, etc.

   How do we really know that for sure?
   
   Did you know that lizards continue to grow throughout their lives right up until they die - and that if, say, they lived, oh, a couple hundred thousand years, they would become quite big (like small dinosaurs) and if, say, they lived for a million years, they would get as big as - um - the bigger sort of dinosaurs …
   

   I’m not saying God is the author of sin - that’s different. I’m saying God designed, planned, and implemented pain and suffering.

   I’m not.
   

   I’m having a hard time reconciling that with a loving God.

   So would I, if I believed that.
   
   Edited to add: I am not a scientist, nor do I play one on TV. I actually don’t know how the dinosaurs lived, or whether they died, or whether they suffered. I’m just throwing out my half-baked theory as an alternative idea to consider. Most people consider it idiotic, and you can feel free to do the same - for me, I find it gives me something to think about.

 

[bsroufek]

I recall the passage where Jesus says, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’ shall
enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father.”

And, also those who said to Jesus, “We ate and drank with you and cast out demons in your Name,” but Jesus will say, “Depart from me you evildoers. I never knew you.”

“And this is the will of the Father: believing in the One He sent.”

 

[bsroufek]

*Quote:
I’m not saying God is the author of sin - that’s different. I’m saying God designed, planned, and implemented pain and suffering.
*
I’m not.

*Quote:
I’m having a hard time reconciling that with a loving God.
*
So would I, if I believed that.

It is the will of God that some of us suffer redemptively, for the sake of ourselves and others, just as He did. Pope John Paul II wrote about the “Need for suffering”.

 

[Love4All]

It is the will of God that some of us suffer redemptively, for the sake of ourselves and others, just as He did. Pope John Paul II wrote about the “Need for suffering”.

It is fact, that the Saints desired to suffer for the sake of souls.

 

[bsroufek]

It is fact, that the Saints desired to suffer for the sake of souls.

One issue I have about suffering is the source of the suffering. Some Saints took the discipline (whipping, etc.) and some fasted. We have suffering given to us from God, such as sickness. Whether or not we should impose our own suffering or just accept what we are given by God is an issue.

As for the original question, God must call some Saints to impose suffering upon themselves in addition to the suffering He gives to them.

 

[Love4All]

One issue I have about suffering is the source of the suffering. Some Saints took the discipline (whipping, etc.) and some fasted. We have suffering given to us from God, such as sickness. Whether or not we should impose our own suffering or just accept what we are given by God is an issue.

As for the original question, God must call some Saints to impose suffering upon themselves in addition to the suffering He gives to them.

We are all called to do voluntary penance.

 

[Lochias]

How is it taking out of context? You were the one who assumed I was talking about “objective evil”, which you had no reason to do since the OP was about the pain and suffering of pre-human creatures.

I was simply clarifying my own position. Regardless, I’ve shown from the verse you tried quote that God doesn’t create evil at all. Evil and redemptive suffering are two entirely different things, and people needed to know the context behind what you posted, so as not to come to the wrong conclusions.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Please critique my logic here:

I’m not saying God is the author of sin - that’s different. I’m saying God designed, planned, and implemented pain and suffering.

I’m having a hard time reconciling that with a loving God.

I just happened to be thinking a bit about pain today. For a start, what is “Pain”? For us, it’s an unpleasant sensation interpreted by the brain. As far as I know all sensations are transmitted along the same nerve pathways, so what differentiates a pain signal from one of touch or cold or heat or pleasure?

Secondly I would imagine there would be no need for pain in heaven, which is God’s home so to speak. If fhat’s the case, then “pain” is a part of His imaginative creativity, since I would assume “pain” was intrinsically unknown to God in His original solo existence. He must therefore have postulated a necessity for it in His creation, without having experienced it Himself up to that point.

Then there’s the implied pain of the lake which looks like molten glass as described in Revelation, which must be different from that of our own earthly pain, since the Devil, demons and the damned are going to end up there as I understand it.

God must have imagined that too, and planned to bring it into being, despite there being no necessity for “pain” in His original singular or tripartite state.

Hence God planned “pain” as serving two main functions - a warning if something goes wrong with the body and which requires attention, and secondly as punishment in another context.

This would indicate He foresaw the Fall, the role of the devil in the Fall, and from the beginning included “pain” as part of the creation.

And even those He wants with Him in heaven may have to endure “pain” in Purgatory, but this time it’s a refining pain.

Therefore God meant to include pain and suffering in His creation.

But then He redeemed some of this pain and suffering on the cross by taking it on Himself, “drawing all men to Himself”, yet not redeeming all men, some of whom will be lost, and certainly not redeeming the devil or demons, whose choice is irrevocable.

Any definition of “Divine Love” has to take this into account.

The problem then is not so much the existence of pain and suffering, but an adequate understanding and definition of “Divine Love”. I don’t think we understand it. I certainly don’t. To refine steel, you make it white hot. To refine men into God’s image, perhaps God has to do the same thing, but in a spiritual way.

When it’s all said and done, that’s what He’s about. Nothing but the pure will get into heaven.

He’s certainly not soft. I gave up on that illusion a long time ago. I don’t even like Him much sometimes.

 

[bluemug]

I am a bit disturbed at the moment. God surely was in that house where those 3 girls were captives and sexual slaves, in Cleveland. For 10 years. There must had been lots of prayers. Why didn’t God help them? Was it all for a good purpose ? Was it a necessary pain for some good reason? For whom?
I don’t understand…at all.