God knowing the future

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Sorry if this is in the wrong place and if it needs to be moved no problem. I’ve always wondered if God is the creator of all things and knows the future isn’t that sort of like predestination. What I mean by that if God creates something and he already knows the outcome of the thing he created even before he creates it, its future is already determined. For example God creates a person who has several generations of offspring passing down a genome that contributes to alcoholism through the generations. Then one great great great grandson of the person that God created many generations ago becomes a terrible alcoholic and because of his alcoholism violently beats one of his sons. Then that son grows up and because he was abused abuses a young girl who then turns to drugs to ease the pain of her abuse. She then becomes a severe drug addict and prostitutes her self for drugs and gets pregnant and has a child that grows up with no parents and turns to gangs then murders someone in a gang fight. Then spends most of his life in a prison until he is executed. Now when God created that person many generations ago he knew that that person who have several generations of offspring with some one winding up murdering and then being put to death. What if he said you know what if I just take out that genome for alcoholism none of that would happen. So doesn’t God really control the future because he knows the outcome before he even creates it.

Something that is hard for me to wrap my head around is free will with an all powerful and all knowing God.

Looking forward to your responses.

Thanks
 
Thats actually a philosophic question. Keep one thing in mind. Simply because GOD Can do everything he likewise has the ability to limit himself if he so chooses. The fact that he condescended to become Man in Christ Jesus is evidence of that. But what is the one thing that GOD cannot do?

He cannot create Love by a creature given freely of its own WILL for him. He can use coersion. But if he does then it isnt freely given is it. So yes - GOD influences Our lives and points us in the right direction and gives us Commandments to live by - but he also tempers it by allowing evil to exist. All these factors including his Grace are all factors in fairly allowing us the freedom to choose his love and to express our love for him.

He doesnt allow us to be tempted beyond our strength - even when we see people who have had to go through terrific trials on earth , he allowed it not to destroy the person but to ulimately make him or her stronger for a reason - sometimes known only to him.
 
This is really a question in philosophy and apologetics, but I suggest you read through this recent thread, where the question has come up. (I may humbly suggest you pay particular attention to my posts. :))
 
Dbter said:
… So doesn’t God really control the future because he knows the outcome before he even creates it…
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No, he knows but does not control the future. For example we can use free will to stop producing alcohol, or stop consuming alcohol, or stop all those things you mentioned. It is up to us.
 
From Gods perspective terms like future and past are meaningless as He is outside of time.
 
The short answer is that there is no cause-and-effect relationship between God’s foreknowledge of an event and the event happening. In other words, God, by knowing something will happen, does not thereby make it happen. Just like we don’t make the sun rise in the east by knowing it’s going to happen.
 
Advocatus_Fidei said:
From Gods perspective terms like future and past are meaningless as He is outside of time.
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I think this has the right of it. Time itself is something created, and therefore God is not subject to it. He is beyond the limitations of the temporal perspective. For temporally-conditions creatures such as ourselves, the present always has the horizon of the future and the legacy of the past. Perhaps for God it is more like an eternal present that lacks both the horizon (which suggests potential, but God is fully actual) and the legacy (which suggests change, to which God also seems not to be subject).
 
I picture God’s omnipotence working something like this, and I realize that this is an odd analogy:

Think of God as an NFL official who is also a football commentator for ESPN. It is the end of the season, and the Super Bowl is over. God is giving a report on the season in review.

Since all the games have been played, God knows every score, every play, and the outcome of every down. He knows who caught the ball, and who failed to make a tackle. He can analyze every aspect, or watch it in slow motion. God has knowledge of everything that happened that season.

As an NFL official, God also constructed the rules of the game. He picked the people who would officiate, and used the “instant replay” when necessary to overturn a few bad decisions, in order to make sure that the rules that he set came out the way they were intended.

Now, that said, God did not actually interfere in any of the plays, nor did he play the game for the people. Each coach, and player could have made any decision they chose. In a given situation, a quarterback could have opted to run the ball, make a pass, take a knee, or, heaven forbid, even throw the game. God did not make any of these decisions. He granted the players free will to play however they desired. This, however, does not in any way impact the fact that God still knows what happened, since it’s the end of the season, nor does it change the fact that God provided the rules to the game.

Eternity is a difficult concept, and it works a bit like that. Imagine God sitting at the end of time looking back at everything that has happened and knowing the outcome. He was able to construct rules… a plan… but still give us free will. It is a daunting concept to wrap one’s mind around.
 
Adeodatus said:
I think this has the right of it. Time itself is something created, and therefore God is not subject to it. He is beyond the limitations of the temporal perspective. For temporally-conditions creatures such as ourselves, the present always has the horizon of the future and the legacy of the past. Perhaps for God it is more like an eternal present that lacks both the horizon (which suggests potential, but God is fully actual) and the legacy (which suggests change, to which God also seems not to be subject).
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As when Jesus tells St Peter in Scripture that he has Prayed he not enter temptation , Being GOD he can insure it not happen - but then he doesnt say that does he.
 
Rolltide,

Great analogy since I am too an alabama fan and graduate. Got to love football analogies. However I think you left one position out that God is and that is the coach. And since he is the coach he decides who plays and who doesn’t. And since he knows the outcome before the game is played he can change the game by putting in different players. He knows that the quarterback he has in place will throw a touchdown to win the game or an interception to lose the game. Another question to ask ourselves is would God ever put a subpar player in knowing he will lose the game. Would He put in the backup quarterback over the starter knowing the outcome would be a loss. For instance could HE or would HE have maybe had a soldier that was a better shot on the opposite end of trench during WWI that could have killed Hitler during WWI therefore preventing WWII and saving millions of lives? He knew the outcome of every bullet fired in WWI by everyone HE created before it was fired.

Your thoughts ?
 
Dbter said:
Rolltide,

Great analogy since I am too an alabama fan and graduate. Got to love football analogies. However I think you left one position out that God is and that is the coach. And since he is the coach he decides who plays and who doesn’t. And since he knows the outcome before the game is played he can change the game by putting in different players. He knows that the quarterback he has in place will throw a touchdown to win the game or an interception to lose the game. Another question to ask ourselves is would God ever put a subpar player in knowing he will lose the game. Would He put in the backup quarterback over the starter knowing the outcome would be a loss. For instance could HE or would HE have maybe had a soldier that was a better shot on the opposite end of trench during WWI that could have killed Hitler during WWI therefore preventing WWII and saving millions of lives? He knew the outcome of every bullet fired in WWI by everyone HE created before it was fired.

Your thoughts ?
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Well, one problem is that you assume too much. Indeed it’s true that WWII and the Holocaust were incomparable tragedies – but it’s also quite possible that having had them before us as examples for the past 60 years has prevented even greater tragedies.
 
Adeodatus said:
I think this has the right of it. Time itself is something created, and therefore God is not subject to it. He is beyond the limitations of the temporal perspective. For temporally-conditions creatures such as ourselves, the present always has the horizon of the future and the legacy of the past. Perhaps for God it is more like an eternal present that lacks both the horizon (which suggests potential, but God is fully actual) and the legacy (which suggests change, to which God also seems not to be subject).
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Absolutely right. Time is an artificial construct of creatures that have a temporal beginning and end; history is a construct of those timelines put together. Everything that ever is, was or will be (in the eyes of us mere mortals) happens at the same time for God.
 
MarkThomapson,

I think you are correct in saying that yes it may set an example and prevents further tragedies by teaching us a lesson but the question remains by God knowing our future before us and he is the creator of all things are we really set on a path that cannot be changed. Has HE picked who receives his grace and who doesn’t? Does HE choose who receives the gift of faith and those that are left to an eternity of evil?
 
Dbter said:
Rolltide,

Great analogy since I am too an alabama fan and graduate. Got to love football analogies. However I think you left one position out that God is and that is the coach. And since he is the coach he decides who plays and who doesn’t. And since he knows the outcome before the game is played he can change the game by putting in different players. He knows that the quarterback he has in place will throw a touchdown to win the game or an interception to lose the game. Another question to ask ourselves is would God ever put a subpar player in knowing he will lose the game. Would He put in the backup quarterback over the starter knowing the outcome would be a loss. For instance could HE or would HE have maybe had a soldier that was a better shot on the opposite end of trench during WWI that could have killed Hitler during WWI therefore preventing WWII and saving millions of lives? He knew the outcome of every bullet fired in WWI by everyone HE created before it was fired.

Your thoughts ?
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I was kinda hoping to cover my butt on this one with the “instant replay” rule that I threw into my analogy! lol
 
Ah…predestinationism. Read the Presbyterian Westminster Confession of Faith. If you can stomach all the anti Catholic rhetoric, how they HANG onto predestination is just mind numbing. Now, I do believe that God has foreordained all to happen but for His greater good and while we will NEVER understand why, we must rely solely on his mercy and love. God WILLS us all to come to Him, but he knows a part of humankind NEVER will. Sad. Truly, like the Trinity, it is a sacred mystery known only to the Godhead.
 
just_came_back said:
Ah…predestinationism. Read the Presbyterian Westminster Confession of Faith. If you can stomach all the anti Catholic rhetoric, how they HANG onto predestination is just mind numbing. Now, I do believe that God has foreordained all to happen but for His greater good and while we will NEVER understand why, we must rely solely on his mercy and love. God WILLS us all to come to Him, but he knows a part of humankind NEVER will. Sad. Truly, like the Trinity, it is a sacred mystery known only to the Godhead.
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God knew that NONE OF US ALL would ever choose Him because He also knew that we will Fall. He perfectly knew that man would be enslaved in Sin; that his “freedom of will” with regards to righteousness will be totally lost, although remaining “free” (i.e. unconstrained by anything outside himself). It is just impossible for a sinner to have faith in Him, to genuinely repent from his sins, or even do good works pleasing to Him, in his sinful condition.

But with God, all things are possible. Even before the foundation of the world, He has chosen those whom he would grant faith, repentance, and good works, knowing that without His grace none of them will have such.
 
Just Came Back and Procorus,

Isn’t what your describing, predestination ?
 
God controls everyone and everything
and at the same time we have free will and he does not control us at all

Impossible?
For God is nothing impossible!
 
Andre1000,

I don’t think of it as control but yet molding us. God knows that when he created us in a certain way that we were going to make the choices we made throughout our entire life. He knows the outcome of his creation during the creation and even before he creates it. Therefore his creation has already ran its course before it is created or that his creations are predestined to make certain decisions. I know its a weird concept but lets say you are a craftsman and you make two square tables. One with 4 legs and superior wood and one with cheaper less dense wood and only three legs. Which one will stand up better to the test of time. The one with only three legs will fall immediately once you stand it up. Therefore you knew this while creating it that the one with three legs will not work. Now Im not saying it doesn’t have a purpose or a plan but as a table it will fail. It may lend it self to some firewood to warm a cold room one day but as a table it will fail. So knowing this you could go ahead and give the table a 4th leg helping its cause as a table or just go ahead with the original design knowing its predestined to fail. You are not controlling the table but yet it is going to fall due to your design.
 
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