God Loves Homosexuals

[wanner47]

Again, I do not reject scripture, just your take on it…not the same thing.

And what makes your “take” on Scripture superior to mine? Who decides if you’re right or I’m right?

With words like “ridiculous” and “appalling ignorance”, we seem to be going down a road with less that Christian charity…I choose not to go there…Peace be with you.

Ah, so you can’t prove your claims. Gotcha.

No

So the early Church fathers were right?

There is the claim I guess, but not “historical proof” other than the ECF’s claiming so.

There are other “accepted facts” of history with *less *support. For example, the only proof we have that Plato existed is on the say-so of his students. Do you doubt his existence as well?

For that matter, the only proof we have that JESUS existed is on the say-so of his apostles. How can you justify a belief in Jesus if your criteria is so narrow?

I don’t believe it is “clearly condemned” or we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

It is clearly condemned; you just choose to adhere to your own fallible interpretation.

I don’t believe the Catholic church was, and it is not clearly stated in scripture…your beliefs claim it to be so…but that is a religious belief I do not hold.

And what is your believed based on? If its your own interpretation of Scripture, how do you know that your interpretation is accurate, and why should I accept is as accurate?

Please offer the quote.

I do not believe anywhere in scripture God specifically calls “homosexuality a sin”…I do not go against God…just because you state that I do does not make it so…it is your religious belief.

You do not need to believe me…I thought the purpose of exchange of ideas and belief was to help us understand one another and offer a venue of free exchange of ideas. I didn’t realize it was to “disprove” the other side…I hope it offers a mirror to what others believe…but your beliefs are yours…I hope they are tempered with Christian charity and compassion…I hope I exhibit the Spirit of Christ in my posts as well.

Oh, I understand your view… I used to be Protestant. I understand it perfectly. But I think it’s wrong.

The Light of Christ.

And what makes you think that neither I nor the Catholic Church have the Light of Christ? Who determines what the Light of Christ is and what is not the Light of Christ? Do ALL Protestant denominations have the Light of Christ, and, if so, why are there so many conflicting doctrines? If not, how can you identify the true Light of Christ?

No, I do not believe Jesus “left us scripture” at all. The scriptures are our response to him, not his response to us. They are a testimony of those first believers in the decades after the apostles as they sought to understand the teaching of Jesus of Nazareth. They are a testimony of what a select group of early first/second century Christians had come to believe about this “man from heaven.”

So you do not believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God?

I don’t reject his teachings…I reject what you claim are his teaching and I reject what you claim is the Church…not the same thing at all.

So who was Jesus talking about in the verse I cited?

The Church IS the Church that Jesus established, and it has authentically passed down His teachings. That is the Truth, and the fact that you are ignorant of the truth (hopefully not deliberately) does not change the fact that it is what it is. I advise you to do an intense study into Christian history so that you may learn the Truth.

 

[Elric]

How very interesting that when an acutal, real live homosexual (or former, as in this case) shows up on a thread like this and speaks about his journey, his testimony is trumped by someone’s else’s second hand experience of “someone he knows”. Pathetic.

I would suggest that you re-read the post that you are being critical of, your insults are misplaced.

Let’s just see how tolerant the dissenters are when chaste and Catholic homosexuals come to testify of their experiences. The indoctrinated and misguided heterosexuals who wear their banner of “love and acceptance for all” suddenly don’t know how to respond, except with silly second hand stories.

Did you not read where I encouraged them and wished them all the best?

I didnt question their testimony or relate second hand stories to discredit them.

I dont know what it is, but something is making you blind to what is actually written or said.

 

[fbl9]

hello a few post back there was discussion about being happy. it was suggested that homosexual people should practice being chaste but that would cause them to be unhappy was the reply. if a homosexual person wanted to please God by being chaste they need to remember this quote from St. Paul in his letter to the Hebrews chp12:11now all disipline for now seems to be a matter of greif;but afterwards it yeilds the most peaceful fruit of justice…"

 

[blessedtoo]

Neither do we…the subject of homosexuality and sexual ethics is not specifically discussed in scripture…some homosexual behavior is discussed, rape, sexual based idol worship, pedastry…but not committed loving same sex unions…that is not even touched upon nor hinted at.

**

As you have stated, Scripture and the traditions of the Church have consistenty stated that homosexual SEXUAL behavior is a sin. That means that sexual expression itself between members of the same gender is sinful. It is irrelevent whether those sex acts are comitted as rape, pedastry, idolatry, “loving monogamous relationships”, or “same sex marriage.” In all cases, the sinful sexual behavior is present.**

 

[blessedtoo]

I would suggest that you re-read the post that you are being critical of, your insults are misplaced.

Okay. Let me respost your comments.

I dont mean any disrespect towards yourself and I sincerly hope that you are happy and at peace with yourself and I wish you the best of luck with your life.

But the whole nurture speil based on those catagories is bogus.

I know people who fall into one, two or all three of those catagories (I actually fall into one of them, possibly two) and are not homosexual or have the slightest inclination to be so, I also know homosexuals that dont fall into any of those catagories (there are a couple on these message boards that say the same thing) yet they are still homosexual.

They are simply easy answers that can be given to those desperate for a reason as to why they are the way that they are. They dont really hold when put under scrutiny, but most who accept those answers are not wanting to put them under scrutiny.

I am glad that you feel that this group has worked for you, they dont for everyone, but I hope that they continue with you.

Here is how I read your post.
The self described “ex-homosexual” who stated that his first hand personal experience contradicts the common secular propaganda was told his testimony is bogus.

He is told that someone’s second-hand experience of “people I know” carries more weight and truth then personal testimony.

He is told that he has accepted “easy answers” because he is “desperate” and “serious scrutiny” is too challenging.

Did I get that wrong?*

 

[Elric]

Okay. Let me respost your comments.
Here is how I read your post.
The self described “ex-homosexual” who stated that his first hand personal experience contradicts the common secular propaganda was told his testimony is bogus.

He is told that someone’s second-hand experience of “people I know” carries more weight and truth then personal testimony.

He is told that he has accepted “easy answers” because he is “desperate” and “serious scrutiny” is too challenging.

Did I get that wrong?*

Yes you did. But unfortunatly I am not suprised.

I didnt question his testimony or suggest that what others say carries more weight than him, I would suggest that you refrain from such baseless accusations.

If you are unsure of what I meant, it would probably better to say so and ask for clarification than to fly off the handle like this. If you want to discuss what I wrote I would be more than happy to do that, but I dont think that I should put up with these misguided attacks from you.

 

[Publisher]

And what makes your “take” on Scripture superior to mine? Who decides if you’re right or I’m right?

**I’m not too worried who is “right” or “wrong” on scriptural interpretation, I don’t believe we will ever understand the Eternal and Infinte with temporal language and finte minds. Scripture is man’s “take” on seeking to explain the Eternal, and it is very much a product of it’s time and location. **

Ah, so you can’t prove your claims. Gotcha.

If by “gotcha” you mean I do not wish to trade insults with you…then yes…you 'got me".

So the early Church fathers were right?

They were “right” in that they sought to bring those of like mind under one umbrella of Christian thought. They were simply one voice among a myriad of voices who sought to explain the message of Jesus of Nazareth. They used means of bringing together their message many of the other groups simply didn’t choose to use.

There are other “accepted facts” of history with *less *support. For example, the only proof we have that Plato existed is on the say-so of his students. Do you doubt his existence as well?

No.

For that matter, the only proof we have that JESUS existed is on the say-so of his apostles. How can you justify a belief in Jesus if your criteria is so narrow?

You are using the same criteria, yet you don’t think your criteria is "narrow:.

It is clearly condemned; you just choose to adhere to your own fallible interpretation.

I clearly choose to not adhere to yours.

And what is your believed based on? If its your own interpretation of Scripture, how do you know that your interpretation is accurate, and why should I accept is as accurate?

None of us “knows” our understanding is “accurate”. You have chosen to put yourself under the authority of a religious body who claims to teach you with an “infallible” body of belief. That’s great, I am not under their authority nor do I embrace their religious claims. Your’s is based on a religious belief I simply do not share…one cannot prove “religious truth” as “fact”…it is “belief”. The real “proof” of any religion is the lives it’s people live…Paul stated that the fruit of the Spirit was “love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, temporance and long suffering…” Any valid religious belief affects lives for the better…

Oh, I understand your view… I used to be Protestant. I understand it perfectly. But I think it’s wrong.

Now we’re getting somewhere. It’s ok to “think it’s wrong”…I feel the same way.

And what makes you think that neither I nor the Catholic Church have the Light of Christ? Who determines what the Light of Christ is and what is not the Light of Christ? Do ALL Protestant denominations have the Light of Christ, and, if so, why are there so many conflicting doctrines? If not, how can you identify the true Light of Christ?

I have never said that you don’t…the Light of Christ is in each and every individual…it is “that of God” in every person. How one responds to the Light is what is important in my religious tradition…if one responds to this Light in gentleness, mercy, love, peace, kindness, feeding the hungry, looking out for the welfare of others, seeking to establish the Rule of God in our world…those are the things most important…religious doctrine is…religious doctrine…it may assist us as a useful construct in framing our understanding of the Eternal…but it is a construct only…to paraphrase Lao Tse…"To name the Eternal is not the Eternal."

So you do not believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God?

No I don’t…it is a very human record and work. It is a very human endeavor to explain “God” the “Eternal”…the “Infinite”…in very human finte words.

So who was Jesus talking about in the verse I cited?

The Church IS the Church that Jesus established, and it has authentically passed down His teachings. That is the Truth, and the fact that you are ignorant of the truth (hopefully not deliberately) does not change the fact that it is what it is. I advise you to do an intense study into Christian history so that you may learn the Truth.

**I do not believe Jesus established an organization to “pass down” his teachings…he called a People to live and establish the “Kingdom of God” the “Rule of God” in our present world.

I enjoy Christian history very much…some of my favorite authors are Burton Mack, Bart Erhman, Eilene Pagels, Joan O’Grady and Jacob McCoby…very informative. I am in a constant search and study of “Truth”, it has been and will continue to be a life changing endeavor. But I thank you for your counsel none the less.**

 

[buffalo]

**I do not believe Jesus established an organization to “pass down” his teachings…he called a People to live and establish the “Kingdom of God” the “Rule of God” in our present world.

I enjoy Christian history very much…some of my favorite authors are Burton Mack, Bart Erhman, Eilene Pagels, Joan O’Grady and Jacob McCoby…very informative. I am in a constant search and study of “Truth”, it has been and will continue to be a life changing endeavor. But I thank you for your counsel none the less.**

What was the “Great Commision” then?

 

[Publisher]

**

As you have stated, Scripture and the traditions of the Church have consistenty stated that homosexual SEXUAL behavior is a sin. That means that sexual expression itself between members of the same gender is sinful. It is irrelevent whether those sex acts are comitted as rape, pedastry, idolatry, “loving monogamous relationships”, or “same sex marriage.” In all cases, the sinful sexual behavior is present.**

As a society and nation we have changed in our regard to the status of the African American, women and our treatment of other “minorities” down through out Christian history.

We no longer embrace ideas passed down in regard to an earth centered universe. We no longer…at least a large portion of us ascribe disease to demonic influence or somehow displeasing some “god” who is ready to beat us down at the least infraction. We now know earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, tsunamis, volcanos are all part of our natural world. We know that floods do no indicate a societies “spiritual status”. We have changed our stance on many things.

There will come a time in the future, not this generation perhaps, but in another generation or so, when we’ll look back and wonder what the fuss was about gay people. Same sex marriage will become a reality in Western society…no doubt.

We have not embrace as ‘normative’ much that our forebears embraced…“this too shall pass.”

 

[Publisher]

What was the “Great Commision” then?

To spread the Good News that God is a present reality in our midst. That we are loved and His Kingdom is now established.

 

[Maxply]

God does love homosexuals. But it’s pretty clear homosexual “marriage” makes as much sense as water running uphill.

 

[buffalo]

To spread the Good News that God is a present reality in our midst. That we are loved and His Kingdom is now established.

The Great Commission was to “Go and TEACH all nations”

 

[Publisher]

The Great Commission was to “Go and TEACH all nations”

Yes it is…but I’m at a loss as to how this proves??? I didn’t realize you wanted a scriptural quote.

 

[buffalo]

Yes it is…but I’m at a loss as to how this proves??? I didn’t realize you wanted a scriptural quote.

They were to teach all they had seen and heard and would do so with the authority conferred upon them. That included homosexuality, ie St Paul.

Rom 1;27 - called unnatural, shameful, and a perversity
1Cor 6:9 - active homosexuals won’t inherit kingdom of God
1Tim 1:9-10 - those who engage in such acts called sinners

 

[Publisher]

They were to teach all they had seen and heard and would do so with the authority conferred upon them. That included homosexuality, ie St Paul.

Ahhh. I guess that would also include Paul’s stance on slavery?

I do understand the conservative stance on scripture…I simply do not embrace it.

 

[fix]

Certain currents of modern thought have gone so far as to* exalt freedom to such an extent that it becomes an absolute, which would then be the source of values. *This is the direction taken by doctrines which have lost the sense of the transcendent or which are explicitly atheist. The individual conscience is accorded the status of a supreme tribunal of moral judgment which hands down categorical and infallible decisions about good and evil. To the affirmation that one has a duty to follow one’s conscience is unduly added the affirmation that one’s moral judgment is true merely by the fact that it has its origin in the conscience. But in this way the inescapable claims of truth disappear, yielding their place to a criterion of sincerity, authenticity and “being at peace with oneself”, so much so that some have come to adopt a radically subjectivistic conception of moral judgment

As is immediately evident, *the crisis of truth *is not unconnected with this development. Once the idea of a universal truth about the good, knowable by human reason, is lost, inevitably the notion of conscience also changes. Conscience is no longer considered in its primordial reality as an act of a person’s intelligence, the function of which is to apply the universal knowledge of the good in a specific situation and thus to express a judgment about the right conduct to be chosen here and now. Instead, there is a tendency to grant to the individual conscience the prerogative of independently determining the criteria of good and evil and then acting accordingly. Such an outlook is quite congenial to an individualist ethic, wherein each individual is faced with his own truth, different from the truth of others. Taken to its extreme consequences, this individualism leads to a denial of the very idea of human nature…
.

 

[blessedtoo]

As a society and nation we have changed in our regard to the status of the African American, women and our treatment of other “minorities” down through out Christian history.

The Church has never taught that people, regardless of race, minority status, or gender are immoral or should be discriminated against. It speaks ONLY to BEHAVIORS. Homosexual inclination is not a sin. Homosexual behavior is.

We no longer embrace ideas passed down in regard to an earth centered universe. We no longer…at least a large portion of us ascribe disease to demonic influence or somehow displeasing some “god” who is ready to beat us down at the least infraction. We now know earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, tsunamis, volcanos are all part of our natural world. We know that floods do no indicate a societies “spiritual status”. We have changed our stance on many things.

The Church does not teach Science. The Church does not teach about natural disasters. The Church teaches about faith and morals. In these areas, She is always unchangeable. The traditions of the Catholic Church are also shared by most of the worlds religions. Orthodox Judaism, Islam, non-Catholic Christianity and Buddhist philsophy (and even secular law in this country until recent years) all agree that homosexual BEHAVIOR is against God and the natural law. You’re sect has chosen to break away from the truth and formulate their own theology.

There will come a time in the future, not this generation perhaps, but in another generation or so, when we’ll look back and wonder what the fuss was about gay people. Same sex marriage will become a reality in Western society…no doubt.

While it is currently popular for those who embrace the idea of ssm to assert it’s inevitability, the fact remains that in vote after vote, the public continues to reject this deviation from traditional marriage. But I guess you can all continue to hope.

 

[buffalo]

Ahhh. I guess that would also include Paul’s stance on slavery?

I do understand the conservative stance on scripture…I simply do not embrace it.

A proper understanding on the slavery issue is necessary. It’s a red herring.

 

[Publisher]

A proper understanding on the slavery issue is necessary. It’s a red herring.

Yes it was social and Paul gave instructions to slaves to remain slaves and slave holders to treat them correctly…I don’t think slavery can be justified no matter what the reason or who gave the instruction…slavery is evil and wrong…Paul was wrong on the issue.

 

[buffalo]

Yes it was social and Paul gave instructions to slaves to remain slaves and slave holders to treat them correctly…I don’t think slavery can be justified no matter what the reason or who gave the instruction…slavery is evil and wrong…Paul was wrong on the issue.

Slavery and Christianity